Rate the current top 10 in order of mental strength

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by papertank, Jun 3, 2012.

  1. papertank

    papertank Hall of Fame

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    Like winning important points, controlling their temper, not being streaky during matches.

    For me it would be

    1. Nadal
    2. Ferrer
    3. Djokovic
    4. Federer
    5. Berdych
    6. Isner
    7. Del Potro
    8. Tipsarevic
    9. Tsonga
    10. Murray
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2012
    #1
  2. Semi-Pro

    Semi-Pro Hall of Fame

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    Novak is first
     
    #2
  3. TheBoom

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    I'd put Murray a little higher, he may not hold his own all the time but he shows up and plays consistantly better in matches, berdych is streakier than Murray IMO
     
    #3
  4. goderer

    goderer Banned

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    1. Federer
    2. Murray
    3. Ferrer
    4. Tipsarevic
    5. Del Potro
    6. Berdych
    7. Djokovic
    8. Nadal
    9. Tsonga
    10. Isner
     
    #4
  5. The Bawss

    The Bawss Banned

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    1. Nadal
    2. Ferrer
    3. Djokovic
    4. Federer (he has lost many matches after having had match points recently, he lost after being 2 sets up vs. Djokovic and Tsonga, also after having being 2 sets to 1 up against Del Potro in a match he should have won and he has a huge mental block against Nadal which makes him choke on BPs)

    The rest are mental midgets.
     
    #5
  6. Sid_Vicious

    Sid_Vicious G.O.A.T.

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    Ferrer over Djokovic/Federer.

    Only on TW..

    Ferrer after losing the first set 79-199 (28.4%)
    Federer after losing the first set 90-134 (40.2%)
    Djokovic after losing the first set 56-97 (36.6%)
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2012
    #6
  7. CocaCola

    CocaCola Professional

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    Your no.2 certainly has a great H2H with no.4 on the list which proves his mental strength.
     
    #7
  8. Sid_Vicious

    Sid_Vicious G.O.A.T.

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    How about the impeccable performances in the finals he has played? He won 14 out of 29.
     
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  9. CocaCola

    CocaCola Professional

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    :lol: yes, that too.
     
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  10. Viper

    Viper Professional

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    And all the slams he's won. GOAT candidate for sure.
     
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  11. The Bawss

    The Bawss Banned

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    I thought we were talking about mental strength, i.e not losing to players you shouldn't lose to and keeping a cool head in tense match situations? We are not talking about being owned. He has a decent tie-break record and a decent break point saving percentage.
     
    #11
  12. TennisLovaLova

    TennisLovaLova Hall of Fame

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    I dont really understand how one can value the mental strength of a tennis player...

    But if you watched Fed's or Djoko's matches yesterday, both have insane behaviour when it comes to stay calm keep cool and let the storm pass
     
    #12
  13. WhiskeyEE

    WhiskeyEE Legend

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    Nadal can't even play tennis without picking his ass before every point. That isn't mental strength.

    His mental strength in big points is an illusion anyway. He just pushes and is VERY good at it. You don't need to be calm to implement that style. It's different for shotmakers.
     
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  14. Flash O'Groove

    Flash O'Groove Hall of Fame

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    Why, you mean that percentage of finals won is relevant to assess mental strength? Without bothering about the opponents? Let's have a look at Ferrer's vanquishers in final:

    Before 2007, he lost 3 finals to Andreev, Moya, and Coria. Andreev is not a very fierce player, but he beat Nadal on clay the same year (2005.

    After 2007, he lost:
    - One masters cup against Federer
    - five final against a player named Nadal
    - two against a certain Djokovic
    - one against Murray, Soderling, and Ferrero

    The bigger names he beat in finals are Verdasco, Nalbandian and Almagro.

    It seems to me that this resume shows how strong mentally he is to beat inferior opponents, and how limited his game is to beat superior opponents. Anyway, I dont' think his loss can be explained by mental weakness!
     
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  15. Sid_Vicious

    Sid_Vicious G.O.A.T.

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    Ferrer is mentally tough, but my point is, he is not even close to Federer or Djokovic's league when it comes to mental strength.
     
    #15
  16. underground

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    imo Fed's mental strength has become much better ever since USO last year.
     
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  17. Polaris

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    1. Nadal
    [...]
    The rest don't matter really. They are all more or less the same.

    Among the up-and-comers, I like Raonic's quiet approach. The guy does not beat himself up emotionally.
     
    #17
  18. kragster

    kragster Hall of Fame

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    While I agree with your overall point, I disagree with your supporting evidence
    . The statistic you used does not account for the fact that Fed/Djokovic are overall better/more skilled players so they are expected to win more matches being 1 set down anyway. Federer winning from 1 set down yesterday is more about the fact that his true level is multiple times higher than his opponent than a mental strength thing.

    To have an apples to apples comparison, you need to eliminate the gap in skills/talent factor between Ferrer and Djoker/Fed i.e. one way to do it would be to limit the above stat to opponents ranked outside the top 50. That way we know that all these players are 'expected' to win.

    Another way would be to look at 5-set records although that then brings in physical fitness as well.
     
    #18
  19. BigServer1

    BigServer1 Legend

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    1) Nadal

    2) Djokovic (2011-present)

    3) Federer

    4) Ferrer

    5) Murray

    6-1000) Doesn't really seem to matter much.
     
    #19
  20. TennisLovaLova

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    Nadal is mentally stronger because when you always have the easiest draw and play lefty it helps build confidence
     
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  21. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

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    I am a Federer fan but I have to say in terms of mental strength:

    1. Nadal

    then there is a gap

    2. Federer
    3. Djokovic

    then another gap

    4. Murray
    5. Ferrer

    and then everybody else after that and you start going into mental midget territory.
     
    #21
  22. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

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    Sorry, you are dead wrong here. Nadal's mental strength is second to none and I say that as a Federer fan.
     
    #22
  23. srinrajesh

    srinrajesh Guest

    Nadal
    Djokovic
    Federer (Except against Nadal most times)
    Murray
    Ferrer
    Del Potro
     
    #23
  24. TennisLovaLova

    TennisLovaLova Hall of Fame

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    I'm also a die hard ******* and I'd say nadal cheats by taking time between points to annoy his opponents
    And he grunts a lot also
    All that takes on his opponents and helps him mentally
    His mental strenght is built on cheating and unfair tactics
    Like going take a pee when your opponent is serving for the match
     
    #24
  25. srinrajesh

    srinrajesh Guest

    Last year though Nadal was terrible because of his 6 losses in a row to djoker has regained it a bit now
     
    #25
  26. Sid_Vicious

    Sid_Vicious G.O.A.T.

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    I disagree. That is a great statistic to analyze mental prowess on a tennis court. From the large sample sizes we have, recovering from a first set loss statistically favors a loss rather than a win. Even great players like Federer, Nadal, and Djokovic are in 35-40% ranges.

    Gap in talent and skill? Federer and Djokovic did not win those matches from a set down with beautiful looking groundstrokes. They played the big points well and won the matches. Mental strength and physical talent are related somewhat , IMO. Federer/Djokovic perform better in bigger matches because they know how good they are and that gives them the confidence to push the odds in their favor.

    You say we should eliminate the gap between them in talent... why should we do that? There is no point in looking at mental strength if it does not give you any results. I can say that I am mentally tougher than Federer/Djokovic, but for an apples to apples comparison, you must eliminate the talent gap between me and Federer/Djokovic by comparing my performances against local scrub tennis players to Federer/Djokovic's performances at the grand slam level.

    I don't see any reason to give Ferrer extra credit for his mental strength just because he is not as talented as Federer or Djokovic. It just does not make sense to me. It is like saying that we can't reasonably claim that Sampras was mentally tougher than Agassi because Agassi did not have as a great of a serve to rely on during big points; and for a reasonable comparison, we must have the two play a match with underhand serves to truly see who was mentally tougher. :-|

    Ferrer has no excuse. In his last two matches against Nadal this year, Ferrer converted 4/25 BP against Nadal. The gap in talent is clearly not an excuse. Ferrer can clearly play his way to break points, but he folds like a cheap lawn chair and loses in straight sets every time.

    Even against Federer, I remember matches where Ferrer failed to convert like 6 BP chances. I think it was WTF 2010...
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2012
    #26
  27. firepanda

    firepanda Professional

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    1. Ferrer
    2. Nadal
    3. Federer
    4. Djokovic
    5. Del Potro
    6. Berdych
    7. Isner
    8. Tipsarevic
    9. Tsonga
    10. Murray

    Murray is a walking disaster. You don't get where he is without being a total headcase. I've three of his slams against the top players and he's been a disaster in every one of them.
     
    #27
  28. chrischris

    chrischris Hall of Fame

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    1. Nadal
    2.Fed/Nole
    4.Delpo
    5.Isner
    6.Ferrer
    7.Muzza
    8.Tipsy
    9.Tsonga
    10.Berdych
     
    #28
  29. tank_job

    tank_job Banned

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    1. Nadal
    2. Isner
    3. Ferrer
    4. Federer
    5. Tipsarevic
    6. Del Potro
    7. Djokovic
    8. Tsonga
    9. Berdych
    10. Murray
     
    #29
  30. Russeljones

    Russeljones G.O.A.T.

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    I think Murray is steadily climbing up the rankings of many knowledgeable tennis fans. The ability to keep a straight face during his shows is a sign of considerable mental strength.
     
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  31. kragster

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    I'm not talking about having beautiful ground-strokes. I'm saying that mental strength is not the only thing that determines whether you come back from a 1 set loss.

    When you have a 1 set loss, it could mean 1 of 2 things

    a) The other player is better than you in general
    b) The other player is RIGHT NOW playing better than you

    For guys like Fed/Djoker, 99% of the time, it is about (b). For a guy like Ferrer it is a combination of (a) and (b). By virtue of that very fact, you SHOULD expect Ferrer to have a worse record than Fed/Djoker EVEN IF HE HAD THE SAME MENTAL STRENGTH. Not saying he does, just saying that if he did, it would not show up in this stat. Ferrer can have all the mental strength in the world but he won't have the skills to come back from 1 set down to beat Federer on a hard court. Federer on the other hand can be 1 set down and all he needs to do is play his normal level and he can win.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2012
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  32. Mainad

    Mainad G.O.A.T.

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    Come again?? Where exactly do you think he is?? You mean, like #4 in the world with 22 titles?? Is that what you call being a walking disaster?? He's been in 3 Slam finals. Exactly how many Slam finals have Berdych, Isner, Tipsarevic and Tsonga made? If Murray is 'a walking disaster' for making 3 Slam finals, what does that make those others who have made only 1 or none at all?

    In terms of mental strength on this list, there is absolutely no question that Murray is ahead of all those other guys I mentioned. His results simply defy any attempt to argue otherwise.
     
    #32
  33. Backhanded Compliment

    Backhanded Compliment Hall of Fame

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    1. Federer (it's actually his mental toughness thats keeping him in the top 3)
    2. Djokovic
    3. Nadal
    4. Ferrer
    5. Murray
    6. Del Potro
    7. Tsonga
    8. Tipsarevic
    9. Isner
    10. the Berd

    Murray will move up considerably if he gets a slam, it is clear he gets tight because of that monkey on his back. I wouldnt be surprised at all if he wins the French because he is not expected to... but has all the tools. Even his forehand is on now and he's geting to the net enough too.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2012
    #33
  34. WhiskeyEE

    WhiskeyEE Legend

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    No, sorry, but you are wrong. It isn't.
     
    #34
  35. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Nadal is easily and far and away #1 in this category and only a blind hater would suggest otherwise. Beyond that it is tough to say. Prime Federer might be #2 but he has lost some in this area. Djokovic has often been suspect in this area, but it takes mental toughness to be top 3 for 6 years in a row, and Djokovic 2.0 is alot tougher mentally than the prior version. Ferrer is a huge fighter but gets nervous when ahead and on big points sometimes. Del Potro and Isner are decent. Murray, Tsonga, Berdych, and Tipsarevic are all pretty poor for a top player in this category.
     
    #35
  36. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Murray #4, dont make me laugh. No way in hell is Murray mentally tougher than Ferrer, he just has a way better game. Ferrer would never play the way Murray has in his slam finals, he might get his ass whooped just as badly but it wouldnt be through playing embarassingly subpar tennis.
     
    #36
  37. Mighty Matteo

    Mighty Matteo Semi-Pro

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    1. Federer
    2. Nadal
    3. Djokovic
    4. Murray
    5. Ferrer (he has less belief)
    etc.
     
    #37
  38. okdude1992

    okdude1992 Hall of Fame

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    Nadal had all those losses because Novak was totally outplaying him. Yet his fight was incredible (ie 3rd set USO final)

    1.Nadal (never gives up, intensity even in early rounds of tournaments)
    2.Djokovic (huge improvement, lots of matches he toughed out last year that he *shouldn't have won)
    3.Ferrer (great fight, gets a bit tight sometimes)
    4.Federer (used to be #1 mentally, but losses to nadal have shaken his confidence. perhaps less motivation now, and plus blown 2 sets to love leads to Djoko and Tsonga...)
    5.Isner (very clutch, aggressive, yet patient tennis on serve, see match vs Mahut)
    6. DelPotro (mellow demeanor, but can let little things bug him)
    7.Murray (way too negative/passive at times,sporadic early exits, but still usually fights hard)
    8.Tipsarevic (much improved, in the past didn't always focus /show up for matches he was expected to win)
    9.Tsonga (wild shot selection at times, big ups and downs in his matches, typical French)
    10.Berdych (Rarely ever toughs out matches where he is not playing well, questionable work ethic vs other top guys)
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2012
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  39. Mainad

    Mainad G.O.A.T.

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    That's absolutely impossible to say since Ferrer has never made a Slam final. Until that day comes when he's mentally tough enough to finally make one, only then will we see how he fares mentally or otherwise when he actually plays it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2012
    #39
  40. IvanisevicServe

    IvanisevicServe Banned

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    Different types of mental strength. There's strength to fight/come back when down, there's the ability to stretch leads/pull away with the lead, there's ability to hang in there during a tight match and win the big points, there's converting break points, and there's saving break points.
     
    #40
  41. norbac

    norbac Legend

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    No, sorry, you are wrong.

    No, you are.

    No, you are.

    No, I am

    No, you are.
     
    #41
  42. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

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    Ferrer is only tough when he plays against lesser players. As soon as he has to play one of the top three of four, he is not that tough mentally. You have to put Murray ahead of Ferrer slightly because Murray has made slams finals and has won many more big titles than Ferrer.
     
    #42
  43. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

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    [​IMG]
     
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  44. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

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    Nope, I am not wrong. I think Federer is a more talented player who has a lot more variety and a much nicer style to watch, but if you are talking mental strength and a guy who fights every single point like it is match point, you have to give the edge to Nadal there even if you dislike him.
     
    #44
  45. Talker

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    1. Federer
    2. Djokovic
    3. Del Potro
    4. Nadal
    5. Ferrer
    6. Murray
    7. Tsonga
    8. Tipsarevic
    9. Isner
    10.Berdych

    Fed's as tough as they get, 18/19 slam finals not only shows in tournament toughness but for such a long time.

    Djokovic has been tougher last year but wasn't long enough.

    Del Potro has been tougher but with a diminished game since the injury the confidence is lacking until lately.

    Nadal has a high margin for error game with his topspin so he can stay in rallies longer than most, it looks like mental toughness but is really just the safe type of game he has.
     
    #45
  46. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

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    LOL at Isner and Ferrer before Federer. Does Isner have more than 16 slams? Does Ferrer?
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2012
    #46
  47. Towser83

    Towser83 Legend

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    Too hard to answer. first are we talking about mental toughness now? At each player's best? Overall career wise? Djokovic at his best last year and uo til the aussie open this year is the best out of everyone but overall he is behind both Nadal and federer.

    Also Nadal is better than fed generally at toughing out close matches but worse at dealing with another player killing him. also the series of matches with djokovic last year dented his reputation.
     
    #47
  48. TennisFan3

    TennisFan3 Legend

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    Nadal
    Federer
    Djokovic

    (HUGE GAP)

    Del Potro
    Murray

    (Gap)

    Ferrer
    Isner
    Berdych
    Tsonga
    Tipsarevic
     
    #48
  49. Clarky21

    Clarky21 Banned

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    This is a good list,but I would put Rolaids first followed by Fed then Nadal.
     
    #49
  50. primetennis

    primetennis Rookie

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    spot on!!!
     
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