Rate this guy (video)

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by Big bag of squirrels, Mar 30, 2008.

  1. TennisDawg

    TennisDawg Semi-Pro

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    Those two guys are at least this good!

    Characteristics of a 4.0 Player

    Forehand: Dependable; hits with depth and control on moderate shots; may try to hit too good a placement on a difficult shot

    Backhand: Player can direct the ball with consistency and depth on moderate shots; developing spin

    Serve/Return: Places both first and second serves; frequent power on first serve; uses spin; dependable return of serve; can return with depth in singles and mix returns in doubles

    Volley: Depth and control on forehand volley; can direct backhand volleys but usually lacks depth; developing wide and low volleys on both sides of the body



    Special Shots: Can put away easy overheads; can poach in doubles; follows aggresive shots to the net; beginning to finish points off; can hit to opponent’s weaknesses; able to lob defensively on difficult shots and offensively on setups; dependable return of serve

    Playing Style: Dependable ground strokes with directional control and depth demonstrated on moderate shots; not yet playing good percentage tennis; teamwork in doubles is evident; rallies may be lost due to impatience
     
    #51
  2. tfm1973

    tfm1973 Semi-Pro

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    both play well within themselves. they don't make errors because they are trying to crush the ball unnecessarily. i'd say 3.5 to 4.0 range. is it just me but it looks like they are playing out balls in this "match".

    i don't think they are better than solid 4.0 however. (at least in my region) 4.5's hit more consistently, harder and with more spin these these guys.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2008
    #52
  3. circusmouse

    circusmouse Rookie

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    This is all a moot point because the ratings are really defined by results rather than appearances, but even according to the NTRP guidelines, I don't think they're 4.0. They don't hit with depth or placement off of medium shots, when they did try for depth they often hit long (yes, as someone just mentioned, they did play some out balls) they didn't hit with pace on any serves, and they didn't return with depth. I don't want to cut and paste it, but I think they fit the NTRP description of 3.5 better. Honestly, I don't care about this debate at all, but I can say that as a 4.0 player, I would feel very confident going into a match against these guys. Their serves alone would be a huge liability. I've played against mediocre 3.5 players that looked about like these guys. I'll stop posting on this thread now. I try not to get involved in these debates.
     
    #53
  4. FedererISBetter

    FedererISBetter Rookie

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    I see ugly footwork : / Point construction a bit shaky... vollys.. is mixed between really good and just okay and to being lazy. Theres a mix of strenghs and mix of weaks so its very hard for me to predict besides playing them. Who knows,,, I say great 3.5s.
     
    #54
  5. Moz

    Moz Hall of Fame

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    For what my opinion is worth....

    The guy without the cap has terrible footwork which prevents him from having any time on the ball - he moves like a beginner when he gets a deep shot hit at him. This doesn't appear to be because of the overwhelming skill of the other player. Even allowing for necessary video inflation I don't see how he can be rated any higher than a 4.0 - and not a particularly strong one at that. If you said 3.5 I wouldn't be surprised if you said 4.5 I'd be a little shocked.

    The guy with the blue cap seems to have made a good decision on the hitting partner so he can look pretty good. He doesn't move, bend or hit like a strong player so I would say a weakish 4.5 (if we are talking 4.5 league, singles players - not 4.5 doubles leaguers forced to play singles). If you said 4.0 I wouldn't be surprised if you said 5.0 I'd be a little shocked.
     
    #55
  6. circusmouse

    circusmouse Rookie

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    Ok, against my own better judgment, one last post in this thread. Although it's hard to be sure judging from a dozen cherry picked points against a weaker opponent, the guy in the cap is probably a 4.0 but not higher. After rewatching the video and paying more attention to who is doing what, I can see that he is far better than his opponent.
     
    #56
  7. ZPTennis

    ZPTennis Semi-Pro

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    They look like average 4.0's to me.
     
    #57
  8. rbq4h4

    rbq4h4 Rookie

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    guy in the hat look good. great forhand at 55 and 1;45! also nice touch the shot at 1;35.
     
    #58
  9. 35ft6

    35ft6 Legend

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    Guy in blue, strong 4.0? The other guy a weak 4.0?
     
    #59
  10. Rickson

    Rickson G.O.A.T.

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    It looks like both guys prefer the topspin serve over the flat serve. I'd say your buddy in the blue hat is a 4.0 player.
     
    #60
  11. dozu

    dozu Banned

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    both are around strong 4.0, weak 4.5..... serves are ok, footworks are so so... ground stroke power is weak.... both have quite bad backhands. topspin hits too late, with weird motion... backhand slice has no bite.... a standard 4.5 will simply outlast both of them. a standard 5.0 will have much bigger serves and ground strokes, and should blow them off the court.
     
    #61
  12. rbq4h4

    rbq4h4 Rookie

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    lots of noise in background?
     
    #62
  13. Hot Sauce

    Hot Sauce Hall of Fame

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    4.0, but the guy in the hat is better.
     
    #63
  14. Djokovicfan4life

    Djokovicfan4life Legend

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    Those topspin serves seemed really slow for some reason, must have been the camera.
     
    #64
  15. TennisDawg

    TennisDawg Semi-Pro

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    The NTRP has been the standard now for some 25 years so I don't see where I'm making a moot point. Again using the NTRP guidelines they don't/won't hit every shot with depth or placement, in fact NTRP states they will still tend to overhit and make errors. Also, 4.0 players don't have big strong serves.
     
    #65
  16. K-LEG

    K-LEG Rookie

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    Definitely a 4.0, I don't think any players at the 3.5 level can hit with that sort of placement and pace, for example at 23 seconds into the video when he hits a down the line forehand winner. Both were decent tennis players although it's pretty obvious that the man with the blue hat is at a higher level then his friend.
     
    #66
  17. baek57

    baek57 Professional

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    blue hat guy easily 4.0. his serve looks too fluffy to me for 4.5. other guy low 4.0 or 3.5... clearly worse than blue hat guy.
     
    #67
  18. mdjenders

    mdjenders Professional

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    blue hat would be a solid 4.0, IMO. his strokes are nice and smooth. lack of pace on the serve and lack of depth on groundstrokes would be punished by 4.5 players. 3.5 players dont hit authoritative winners from behind the baseline like blue hat.
     
    #68
  19. TENNIS_IS_FUN

    TENNIS_IS_FUN Professional

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    Maybe you guys are right...maybe rating these guys at a 2.5 is a bit harsh. But! I think im paying too much attention to how their form looks like, instead of looking at the debth and spin of the ball....Do me a favor and just look at their form, not where the ball travels, and see if your mind changes....
     
    #69
  20. vince916

    vince916 Semi-Pro

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    At 1:50 the guy with the gray hit a decent serve and got a very short ball. Then he proceeded to push the ball gently over the net directly to the guys forehand.

    I think he's a little to passive.
     
    #70
  21. split-step

    split-step Professional

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    Can't tell rating based on a 2 min video.

    What I can say is guy in blue hat is playing against a lower quality opponent so he is not being forced or pushed at all. Makes him look better than he really is.
    He does not split step at all. He is flat footed and is still able to get to the shot on time and hit semi aggressive shots. Flat footed on return of serve yet can still hit a winner off it.

    Best way to tell rating is show video of unrated guy playing against a rated person. Then we can name it.
    I hereby trademark this system "Relative rating" :).
     
    #71
  22. aimr75

    aimr75 Hall of Fame

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    NTRRP

    .....
    ________
    Honda OSM
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2011
    #72
  23. JMS

    JMS Professional

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    I would say 4.0
     
    #73
  24. Loco4Tennis

    Loco4Tennis Hall of Fame

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    i agree with most, they seem at least a 4.0 maybe 5.0, i saw some point strategy being developed, not just hitting, but also setting up of points on both sides, not a common thing in 4.0 players, depth control was also there
    also the chip and charge and rushig the net, thats advanced tactic for a 4.0 player
    i guess i should say that these tactics can be developed earlier by some, but its not common on 4.0 or below players
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2008
    #74
  25. Love2AceYou

    Love2AceYou New User

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    i say he should go pro
     
    #75
  26. MIGHTY MANFRED THE WONDER

    MIGHTY MANFRED THE WONDER Semi-Pro

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    I'm sorry, 3.0- very tops, for members of the knee, elbow and ankle brace (and aspercream) crowd.

    What would happen if they ACTUALLY played a real competitive, younger 4.0?
    Bring those serves and one hand backhand along, with some mayo... 'cause you should enjoy eating them for lunch. Those net charges- what happens when an opponent lobs over these two consistantly? Break out the air bottles- quick.

    I think the bird sounds are transplanted residents they can't get out of the building.
     
    #76
  27. raiden031

    raiden031 Legend

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    Relative to what? If I'm playing against a weaker player, my 3.5 serve might seem big and strong and I'll hit a couple aces even, but against a very solid player it would be a liability.

    I don't know how people can make a statement that says a 3.5 can do this or can't do this. I think a more accurate statement would be that a 3.5 cannot do this AT WILL. I have hit some amazing winners that would impress even a 5.0 but I'm sure it is not nearly as frequent as a 5.0 hits them. A 3.5 may or may not have the ability to blast some amazing shots, but because someone hit one or two great shots on video, doesn't mean they are automatically at a higher level.

    But with that being said, I'm not saying they are 3.5 players, but from what I saw I would rate them between a strong 3.5 to low 4.5, which I think is fair. But there is no way in hell they are 3.0s, that I would bet some large cash on.
     
    #77
  28. MIGHTY MANFRED THE WONDER

    MIGHTY MANFRED THE WONDER Semi-Pro

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    I will defer to others in trying to assign ratings, and maybe I am too critical of abilities to make accurate opinion.
    I was thinking more "long run" instead of clips, as well- Like "tournament tested" over very specific flashes of ability.
    Two matches in 90-95 degree heat, single elimination.

    I was thinking to be rated a "low" 4.5 You have to have an all- around consistent court "apperance"
    A backhand cross court and down the line, maybe just slightly less than your forehand.
    A crushing forehand on demand (in the middle of a LONG match)- Where opponents just look at it.
    A lob that lands on the base line every time.
    A selection of 1st serves (depending on your opponent) mixing them up at will- A second that is not a liability, but just a consistent continuation of the first; No double faults, ever, and certainly not under pressure.

    And finally a punishing mental game- no prisoners if necessary; With great sportsmanship after the win.
    Maybe that is too high a bar.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2008
    #78
  29. WBF

    WBF Hall of Fame

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    You know what's amusing? I toy with 4.5's all the time and haven't dropped a set to one in a long time, but your description outclasses *me*. I lack the lob (I'll probably hit 3 successful lobs to every 2 that end up short putaways or out. Every time? What a joke. You would dominate with that control...). Hell, the strongest part of my game is my serve, but my second serve is not the most consistent, and I do rack up double faults (occasionally several times a game)... I don't know if these guys are 4.5's, but your thoughts on a 4.5 are very, very off. Or you are leaving out the fact that all of this might break down against a 4.5 or better player, and that there are many exceptions and variations in the descriptions you offer.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2008
    #79
  30. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Both are 3.5 players.
     
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  31. rbq4h4

    rbq4h4 Rookie

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    weird video angle. court look realy long and thin. player near the camera look like a giant. does this make everything look "slowed down?
     
    #81
  32. MIGHTY MANFRED THE WONDER

    MIGHTY MANFRED THE WONDER Semi-Pro

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    Sorry, WBF
    Your reply is exactly why I prefaced my post by offering up my shortcomings in evaluating adults, (and why the greatest number of posts on this board are breaking out the crying towels concerning this VERY rating system, arbitrary assignments up or down).

    I admit there are a million circumstances and variations that would affect ratings.
    I guess my perceptions have been effected- become too demanding/exacting from watching top Juniors (B16s-18s) duke it out year round in the desert, and not paying as much attention to the "Sweet and low" set to make a good judgement.
    Again, my appologies and I will leave those estimates to those more familiar with the "brace crowd".
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2008
    #82
  33. Big bag of squirrels

    Big bag of squirrels New User

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    Good commentary. Little more info on these guys. Blue hat is a former D1 college player (early/mid 90's). Hasn't really played any competitive tennis for the past several years. As noted, other guy is much less experienced, been playing for about two years.

    Thanks for all the responses.
     
    #83
  34. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    One of 3 things then:

    1. blue hat was really holding bk on his friend
    2. He was on the roster, but got no playing time
    3. He played for the weakest team in D1

    because former D1 players within the decade don't play like that.

    I'd say he was a nice guy, playing some social tennis with someone he likes. We all do it some of the time.
     
    #84
  35. Djokovicfan4life

    Djokovicfan4life Legend

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    Ha, that just goes to show you what some people on here know about tennis, apparently 2.5's are capable of playing D1 tennis! :shock:

    Learn something new every day, I guess.
     
    #85
  36. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    there are DIII teams that will beat some DI schools in tennis 7-0, so without knowing the school and if he actually held a spot, D1 tells us little to nothing.

    Many DI schools are nice to carry a local player or 2 as walkon, even though they are not in the same class as the ********.
     
    #86
  37. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    I would rate him a 3.0 - 3.5 no higher. I would recommend starting at 3.0 to see how he does.

    His footwork is horrible, the serve is weak, his backhand needs help, and the forehand is okay.
     
    #87
  38. Pushmaster

    Pushmaster Hall of Fame

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    ^^ I'm with BB on this one, 3.5 at best. I don't believe the guy in the blue played D1, or even D3 for that matter. There's no way he would lose that much of his skills even if he took 20 years off from the game.
     
    #88
  39. raiden031

    raiden031 Legend

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    Unfortunately due to the USTA experienced player guidelines, I think he must self-rate at a minimum of like 5.0. Sucks to be him. :razz:
     
    #89
  40. WBF

    WBF Hall of Fame

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    No problem!

    Just to give you a heads up: Many of these top juniors could be taken out by old guys with funny looking strokes, that one might see receiving 3.0's on the TT forums (obviously not actual 3.0s!). It is quite amusing watching a big time college player look quite miffed when his coach has him go up against some geezer, only to see him struggle in a close (or not so close) loss.
     
    #90
  41. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    Can't even see the person was a 5.0 at one time. Just can't, sorry.
     
    #91
  42. split-step

    split-step Professional

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    For what college? Sorry but I play a decade removed Div II player who got a shoulder injury that never fully went away and the difference between him and your blue hat guy is night and day.

    Even when you're holding back, your form is still there. This guy's footwork alone belies a Div 1 past.
     
    #92
  43. split-step

    split-step Professional

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    This post pretty much says it all.
     
    #93
  44. hyperwarrior

    hyperwarrior Professional

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    I'll take Bungalo Bill's words for that. He is working for www.tennisplayer.net so I'm pretty sure he's pretty reliable when it comes to the rating.

    So guys, listen to Bungalo Bill!!
     
    #94
  45. THSBOI

    THSBOI Rookie

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    3.5 or maybe 4.0 inbetween there
     
    #95
  46. crazytennis

    crazytennis Semi-Pro

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    My regular hitting partner and friend can kill balls from most part of the court and my school coach rated him strong 3.5 to 4.0 at most. I mostly try finishing the point at the net and he'd kill me if I approached with shots like that.

    Although I must say that the guy in blue cap can rip forehands. I watched the video couple of times and there are times when he rips one for the winner. He could just be playing easy for the other guy. Other than that, their shots are so inside in the baseline, no depth, not much pace(could be camera), easy and tentative returns. I'm sorry but I don't think they're really 4.0s.
     
    #96
  47. Rickson

    Rickson G.O.A.T.

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    Isn't 3.0 a little harsh, BB?
     
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  48. Lendl and Federer Fan

    Lendl and Federer Fan Hall of Fame

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    #98
  49. [K]aotic

    [K]aotic Semi-Pro

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    i would say guy int he blue hat is a strong 4.0 and the other guy is a solid 3.5. If these guys improved their footwork then they would go up half a point.
     
    #99
  50. Vision84

    Vision84 Hall of Fame

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    You should see some of the teams my college has had to play in D3 this year. Some of the bottom players wouldn't have even made my high school JV team. Our number 6 played someone last week who couldn't even get more than 2 or 3 serves in in an entire 2 set match. I haven't seen so many double faults for as long as I can remember. His groundstrokes were weak to and he couldn't even get a ball in play and when he did it was a maximum of twice a point. Our number 6 doesn't hit particularly hard and he hits it pretty flat so it is not a case of him making him look bad.


    Yeah the guy's footwork is really lazy but he could probably get it back soon. He played some great shots off both wings and his technique apart from incorporating more from his legs into his shots was pretty good. If he did this and moved his feet quicker and increased intensity then I think he could be pretty good.
     

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