Rate this guy (video)

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by Big bag of squirrels, Mar 30, 2008.

  1. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    BB also rated Andy Lake 4.0.

    J
     
  2. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    too many clicks
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2008
  3. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    I dont think so. I think at the 3.0 level he would face a lot of pushers and would have trouble with them. Based on his movement, his technique, he would have problems. Plus, his serve can be just blocked back it isn't very much.

    Perhaps after one year, 3.5 would be the trick.
     
  4. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    Yeah, but I was right about your ego, its at least a 10.0
     
  5. BillH

    BillH Rookie

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    I just watched the video again and believe, like other viewers, that the camera angle may be making things look a little slow. Nevertheless, these guys look very much like the kind of guys I play regularly in local USTA tournaments and leagues at the 3.5 and 4.0 level. I know I can serve and hit groundstrokes harder than these guys but the one in the blue hat does seem to be fairly consistent and I expect to play someone like him everytime I play a tournament.
     
  6. WBF

    WBF Hall of Fame

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    BB, I'm confused, what video did you watch? You really think the guy in the blue hat wouldn't be higher than a 3.5, and might have trouble at the 3.0 level? Impressive analysis!

    I do agree that the player looks a bit odd for having played D1 (if this is true... a D1 player typically would have solid foundations that wouldn't leave after 25 years of not playing... this is just odd...).
     
  7. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    Okay, this will be the last time. 3.0 to 3.5 maximum.

    The guy has no feet. He moves slow. I think a pusher would eat him alive. His volleys are not great at all and he leaves backcourt balls short. His serve is slow but this may be his area (along with his forehand) that will bump him up to 3.5.

    I am not saying he doesn't have potential. I am saying that if I had to rate him based on this video, it would bein the 3.0 to 3.5 range. I would suggest he beat the 3.0 level and move up to 3.5.

    He needs to work mainly on his:

    1. Footwork

    2. Backhand

    3. Volleys

    4. Serve

    If he is rated 4.0, then the area he is in is padding and blowing smoke. He would get killed at the 4.0 level in So. Cal. No not killed, murdered.

    And please, give me a break on D1.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2008
  8. MIGHTY MANFRED THE WONDER

    MIGHTY MANFRED THE WONDER Semi-Pro

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    WBF
    Note that BBill and I hit the same estimate(mine was pure luck, a "backed into" guess, but I'll take it).
    I have noticed younger players seem to be more self-depreciating in a group than rated players. Why do tennis players talk themselves up as a HIGHER rating, then when the USTA concurs, then that is the complaint? This happens in golf all the time, is it wishful thinking or what?
     
  9. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    My family (kids) got me hooked on American Idol. I also have a music background so I have a good ear on pitch etc...

    Nearly everytime, Simon and I are in sync, not all the time but a lot of the times. I would also say exactly what he would say. Just the hard truth.

    Most players do not want to be rated lower then they think they are or their friends think they are. Most people rate themselves a level above or half level above.

    I say, have the player enter a tournament and prove it. :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2008
  10. smoothtennis

    smoothtennis Hall of Fame

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    Ok, so what is his rating now? D1 doesn't tell us much. Was anybody here close in your mind, to what your buddies are actually rated?

    I can see on some of the soft hit shots, that he is hitting soft on purpose, sure. Just compare that to his harder strokes - easy enough to see he is doing it on purpose, not becase he has some power deficiency.

    PS.
    The only thing I see that really sticks out that makes me question his D1 credibility, is that he doesn't check step before recieving serve. I don't think a guy can just decide not to check step on a service return, that's so ingrained it's automatic. A D1 player would do this in his sleep, as they have seen hundreds and hundreds of serves at 100+ mph.
     
  11. Vision84

    Vision84 Hall of Fame

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    Yeah the lack of check step is a little odd. It is natural for me to keep check stepping at the net and for return of serve. I think it is also worth taking into account that he isn't really being challenged much by the other guy and may not be putting as much effort in due to this.
     
  12. TennisDawg

    TennisDawg Semi-Pro

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    Okay,

    I'm gonna chime in, again. Watched the video again last night. Blue cap is being nice to the other guy. Blue cap is hitting a lot of shots back to the other guy. He may be just toying with him. Every now and then he hits a winner, but most of the time he just keeps the ball in play. You can keep the points closer, if you just hit everything down the middle and occasionally placing a winner. Whe blue cap decides to rip a winner he does it with authority. I think Blue cap is at least 4.0 just playing around with his opponent.
     
  13. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    So now we are putting more into the clip then there is actually known.

    Well then after looking at it again. I was completely wrong. This guys backhand resembles a well coached D1 player that has the chance to go pro. And I mean right now. He has an amazing capability to lineup properly and rifle a winner at a moments notice.

    His footwork, especially in the split-step area is unprecedented. Outstanding footwork was displayed and moving to the ball was nothing short of spectacular.

    His serve, well, he was just holding back.

    I am surprised a player of this caliber would resort to playing someone like this.

    Ridiculous sounding isn't it?
     
  14. TennisDawg

    TennisDawg Semi-Pro

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    These guys suck. With McEnroe like touch and Boris Becker serves/volley, a NTRP rated 4.0 player would demolish these guys. A 4.0 guy with Stephan Edberg cat like movement would not even waste his time playing these guys.

    Ridiculous sounding isn't it?
     
  15. Pleepers

    Pleepers Professional

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    3.5


    But if they started to move and hit the ball with some pace...maybe 4.0
     
  16. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    Yeah, it is which means YOU sound ridiculous. Let me see if I got you down. "Now that I look at it again, he is just holding back."

    Nevermind overlooking all the poor positioning on his bakchand and his lousey footwork that he learned at the D1 level. LOL!
     
  17. just out

    just out New User

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    BB great stuff. These discussions about ratings are a fun read. After watching this and seeing ratings on these guys as high as possibly 4.5 (wow!) I feel much better about my own game these days. The one thing that struck me about this video is it looked liked slow motion except for a few hard groundstrokes. I used to hit and play with some former D1 and D2 players years ago and they all seemed to play considerably better and hit harder than this (expecially serves and returns). Maybe all the time off really took its toll.

    What is often forgotten about the 3.5-4.5 level is that parts of a person's game at these levels often appear more than 1 point apart because of inconsistency, one weak side (usually bh), lack of movement, weak or great serve, etc. Solid 4.5 and above players have a more well rounded game, fewer weaknesses and therefore are easier to catagorize.
     
  18. ohplease

    ohplease Professional

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    Hilarious.

    You can't mix a subjective skills rating with actual results. You just can't. This is why people get this wrong so consistently. Either you can play, and more importantly, get your share of wins at a particular level - or you can't.

    Just as people look great but can't win, there are plenty of players out there whose results are much better than they look. I've said it before, but until tennis is judged like figure skating, you really can't tell anything from video. Not like you can with someone's USTA record.

    Historical results are AT LEAST an order of magnitude more informative. Which would you rather have - scouting video of every player on the team you're playing this week, or their tennislink records?
     
  19. Thud and blunder

    Thud and blunder Semi-Pro

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    Really? Your game is just as good or bad as it was before you started reading this thread, so no reason to feel any different about it.
     
  20. WBF

    WBF Hall of Fame

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    I agree that results are far, far, more reliable in rating a player, but many posters consistently rate players appropriately, while others fall short to varying degrees. Making an educated guess off of a video shouldn't be too difficult, particularly for someone with much experience in the field.

    Statements like 'He would get killed at the 4.0 level in So. Cal. No not killed, murdered' and '3.0 to 3.5 maximum' when viewing a video are indicative of someone who is being very hard-headed and not very objective. You obviously can't give a hard limit from such a short video, particularly when there is so much room for interpretation.

    Also: As I've said before... Saying 'player x would be killed in region y' is obnoxious. Certain areas might have more *depth*, but the overall level of play is similar.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2008
  21. TennisDawg

    TennisDawg Semi-Pro

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    Liighten up Bungalo

    We're lookin at a guy and disputing whether he shoudl be rated 4.0 in recretional tennis. Somebody said he was a former D1. The big disagreement as I read these posts is whether blue cap is a 4.0, not whether he played D1 tennis.
     
  22. raiden031

    raiden031 Legend

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    What I think is funny is when a video is posted and it is established that the players in the video are N rated players in a USTA league, yet posters continue saying they are not at the level in which they actually play.

    Its no secret that alot of adult league players have ugly and unorthodox strokes, mainly because they never worked with a teaching pro and have been playing for decades so they slowly raised their NTRP rating by experience alone. I think some people need to accept that tennis isn't always flashy. I'm wondering if alot of these posters are teens who have been instructed on good technique and just ignorantly assume anyone with poor technique must be below them NTRP-wise.
     
  23. just out

    just out New User

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    Yes, really! I figure if a former D1 player who is probably about my age plays like this then I'm really not deteriorating nearly as fast as I thought I was. So this makes me feel better, may not be a good reason but it is a reason :oops:
     
  24. hyogen

    hyogen Hall of Fame

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    I would say 4.0 given their consistency. I bet they could hit harder if they wanted. looks like they were going for high percentage shots. I would agree the blue hat guy slightly better. I've seen a lot worse "3.5s"

    although I've been "rated" a 4.0 by some people including a teaching pro, I could see myself losing to either of these guys...even though my game has more weapons and more "flashiness"...my bad footwork due to lack of fitness which leads to inconsistency would possibly result in a loss to either player :(

    neither of the players' serves seemed to be bad at all... they were safely spinning the ball in most of the time but the form looked pretty good.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2008
  25. Thud and blunder

    Thud and blunder Semi-Pro

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    Well, Simon acts like an obnoxious git because he gets paid to play a role. What's your excuse?
     
  26. Pushmaster

    Pushmaster Hall of Fame

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    First thing I look at when sizing up an opponent is his footwork. Forget the strokes, I've been beaten by guys that have ugly strokes before, but never by a guy that doesn't move his feet. I know guys in their 70's that would beat this bum, at least the old guys know how to split-step.
     
  27. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    My excuse is I try t help nuts like you for nothing.
     
  28. Thud and blunder

    Thud and blunder Semi-Pro

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    BB wrote:
    My family (kids) got me hooked on American Idol. I also have a music background so I have a good ear on pitch etc...

    Nearly everytime, Simon and I are in sync, not all the time but a lot of the times. I would also say exactly what he would say. Just the hard truth.


    So you see yourself as the Simon Cowell of TTW, the sardonic scourge of mediocrity and inflated egos.
    That's all well and good, but I'd say you're rather blurring the distinction between reality TV and reality. Trying to emulate someone playing a pantomime role on TV isn't particularly big or clever.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2008
  29. justsomeguy

    justsomeguy Rookie

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    Thanks for the voice of reason. How many vids get posted out here of ball machine heroes with pretty strokes who couldn't win a match? Probably the same amount that are posted of people with ugly strokes who win at their level.

    Your strokes don't define your rating.

    Again: Your strokes don't define your rating.

    Having Fed-like strokes matters not if you don't know how to use them to win games. Your package defines your rating. Your whole package. Watching a practice hit will never give a true idea of someone's level.
     
  30. WBF

    WBF Hall of Fame

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    justsomeguy: Usually just seeing a few strokes can give you a decent ballpark figure. Hell, with two serves alone it was easy enough to see that A. Lake was a very good player.

    I haven't met many people who have awesome looking strokes but a poor game. Of course, I think some of the instances you might be thinking of are more along the lines of the same sort of people who rate A. Lake giving ratings to people they *think* have nice strokes.

    Anyhow, NTRP is far too subjective. As has been pointed out many times, results are the only thing that matter, and even then, things can be deceptive.
     
  31. blackfrido

    blackfrido Hall of Fame

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    2.78 just an opinion
     
  32. justsomeguy

    justsomeguy Rookie

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    Never heard of A. Lake. I do agree with you, though. Sometimes a few strokes give the big picture.

    It's always the same song with these videos. Everyone is an expert. I am not. I cannot see a few minutes of casual hitting and give an NTRP. I just don't understand why so many think they can. Maybe they can, I don't know.

    Some of the people who think they are "experts" at this are often proven wrong when the real NTRP is revealed. Sometimes quite wrong. We have all seen it out here. Someone puts up a vid of a high level player not looking too good. The "experts" deem them 3.0 or whatever and then find out it's Ivanisevic. Pretty embarrassing. It won't stop them from doing it again and again.
     
  33. baek57

    baek57 Professional

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    this is because they are rating what they see in the video... not what they don't see.
     
  34. justsomeguy

    justsomeguy Rookie

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    Agreed. And I feel you need to see it all to give an accurate rating of someone. The NTRP is about your whole game and the level you can compete against.

    Obviously people cannot do this off of some practice footage. If they could, there would be much less argument about these online ratings.

    There's the guy that plays open tournies that one of these experts said was 4.0.

    Or the guy that plays D1 (currently) that can't be more than 4.0. Well, maybe 4.5 if the expert is feeling generous.

    Isn't there a dude that is playing Futures that got bashed to hell and back for his sorry game?

    And these were guys that posted their own videos. Not like they got caught playing crapping and someone put it out here. It just doesn't jive.
     
  35. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    Lighten up? Didnt you provide a comeback as well? So would you say you need tolighten up too.

    Plus, you need to read every post. The question is encompassing ALL of it. Geeez, man wake up.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2008
  36. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    In actuality circusmouse, is correct. The initial rating from oberservation has an error factor in it compared to how they will fair in competition. So it is a bit moot.

    A rating by an observer is many times done from a quick analysis. Much like the ratings are given here. There is no way you can provide a "REAL" rating based on a 30 second video clip with someone rallying or using a ball machine.

    The ratings given here should be preliminary ratings and these ratings could easily changes based on how well they do in competition.

    so it is moot, because it is competition that will determine where the person is in the ratings. People can even self-rate themselves but it is competition that will uncover the competitive rating.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2008
  37. 35ft6

    35ft6 Legend

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    Maybe they're not 100% always right, but yes, some people can do it. It's probably similar to seeing a nice jump shot or golf swing or seeing a guy shadow box. If I saw a video of Roy Jones Jr. shadow boxing for 5 seconds, I'd feel sure this guy is a very good boxer. You can get an idea, but recognizing the physical cues takes experience. In other sports, there are professional scouts, who are handsomely paid to evaluate a player's prospects in a relatively short amount of time. They might have a bad game but they might still rate a player high because of his size or throwing mechanics. It's not all BS.
     
  38. 35ft6

    35ft6 Legend

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    Myself, when I just saw the serve, I guessed at least 5.5 or 6.0. The second link, where he's warming up groundstroke, didn't look as impressive. But clearly, based on results, the guy is 6.0 at least.
     
  39. psYcon

    psYcon Semi-Pro

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    Is there even such a thing as a solid 2.5?
     
  40. iamke55

    iamke55 Professional

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    The ease with which the guy in the blue hat generates pace should alone tell you this is 5.0 or higher.
     
  41. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    Wrong thread. This is the other one, not the Andy Lake one.

    J
     
  42. CAM178

    CAM178 Hall of Fame

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    Ha ha. . .I hope you know that 35's post is dripping with sarcasm.
     
  43. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    I think he genuinely messed up, there is only one link in this thread, and the lake one is the one with the first one warming up the serve, and the 2nd with the groundies.

    J
     
  44. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    He didnt mess up. You are the one that twisted my words into something you wanted it to mean.

    There was no mistake on my part or anyones part. The bottom-line is the NTRP rating will get dtermined when competitive play starts. A rating from a video is just an estimate with a margin of error.

    A rating from a video can happen because of HOW the person is playing. The person could be a 10.0 but on the video he is playing like a 5.0 taking balls lazily, not really hitting out. You rate based on what is provided. Period.

    Why dont you stick your neck out so I can take a shot at you.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2008
  45. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    You are confused too. Go back and look at the video on the first page of this thread. It is not the one you are thinking of.

    I never said a word to you in this thread.

    I will post more vids by the end of the month since it is starting to warm up here, and I only have one tourney in April. Very excited actually to get a chance to look at them myself, and of course will share them with the boards for those who want to see.

    J
     
  46. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    It doesnt matter. You brought up something that you twisted whether it was in this post or another. I plan on seeing you through on it.

    I would like you to start coaching providing tips and ratings. I want to be able to sit back and twsit your words. In other words, I didnt accept your apoligy.
     
  47. ohplease

    ohplease Professional

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    Let's revisit ancient board history here:

    That's BB - circa 2005 (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=38641). The fact of the matter is that while BB is certainly free to judge video from others in any way he sees fit ("my rating is my rating") - we're just as free to judge his conduct here, either by our standards, or his own - as stated.

    And from here, that judgment is BB needs to check himself. This is THREE YEARS later, and frankly the worst club level hacker has made more progress in his game in that time than BB has in his personal conduct here.
     
  48. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    Geeez, dude, I gave that up a long time ago. Find the post where I said the GLOVES ARE OFF.

    However, I think two can play that game. Any post you put up will be critqued. You have no chance.
     
  49. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    Well, here is the link for the thread where we were speaking before, if you would like to pick up where we left off.

    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=179773&page=9

    I believe the last post by me to you was 139, stating "If you are mad I will stop"

    Would be best to contain this to one thread, so the mods only delete that one.

    I do provide coaching tips when I know what I am talking about, but not so much anymore since my wrist is better and I am back to gym/playing, and don't have as much time on the boards.

    I only give out ratings when I am pretty sure that I am correct. Otherwise I just say "I don't know."

    J
     
  50. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    This is so much crap it is ridiculous. Of course, you can see a player and how they do against the references the NTRP provides. It is dumb to think otherwise.

    In league play, the adjustments are made for so many other reasons. A ton of people play DOWN to their talents. And therfore, the reference system gets readjusted. Even still, just because player loses at their level doesn tmean they shouldnt be at that level. If they are competitive and tthe sandbagging is kept in control, they should remain at that level and compete.

    Your post is a bunch nonsense.

    Of course they are. Wow, you my new Einstein. However, when a player wants to get rated initially, there is no HISTORICAL RESULTS! LOL!!!!!

    So a video or other means of "getting an idea" is appropriate. It is just an estimate Einstein it isnt meant to be written in stone. GEt a clue.
     

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