Re: Boris Becker Legend,...

Discussion in 'Racquets' started by OldButGame, Nov 8, 2010.

  1. OldButGame

    OldButGame Hall of Fame

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    Re: Boris Becker Delta Core Legend,...

    I've been looking real hard at the BB Legend,...liking everything about it,....(and its closeness to the BB11,....which i like ALOT,...but is discontinued...:()....
    ....The only thing slowing me down is its listed 'swingweight',.....any Legend owners out there,......is the Legends swingweight a problem???....is it noticeable to You???....does it bother You???....
    ...Thx in advance for any feedback....
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2010
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  2. TennisMaverick

    TennisMaverick Banned

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    There are a lot of comments/threads about these two sticks, many of which I have made.

    This stick is actually being used by Boris because the feedback to the hand from the BB 11 was not what he was looking for.

    The Legend cups the ball much better; the dwell time is longer; hits with more spin; and is more stable, especially off half-volleys. The BB 11 is more cushioned, more powerful, and can be used by a lesser player than one who could utilize the Legend for all of its attributes. The Legend's feedback to the hand is superior, and the more preferred from elite players. Again, the primary reason why Boris had it made and why he switched.

    Regarding swingweight: As I have stated on many boards with regard to Volkl, you need to throw stats out the window. The Delta Core severely changes weight/balance requirements, and all of my guys, all of whom has played collegiate ball and some Futures, 6.5 NTRP, who uses any BB DC stick, does not do so with anywhere near the amount of lead tape for which they are accustomed. The ones who used the BB 11, used a lot of tape; but when they switched to the Legend, they used very little. Same with the London. It was not due to balance, but to material, the Delta Core. As advanced players, they know that the nano makes a huge difference, and would totally disagree with any posters of lesser ability who would debate the issue.
     
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  3. OldButGame

    OldButGame Hall of Fame

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    Hmmmm,...(thx for the reply!!...and great info!!),....sounds like i cant really make a 'direct comparison' to the 2 (BB11 and Legend),.....was hopin for something a little like the BB11,....:-|
     
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  4. TennisMaverick

    TennisMaverick Banned

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    You can....perhaps I was unclear.

    All of my guys who used the BB 11 who wanted more control, switched to the Legend. ALL OF THEM. One then further switched to the London later down the road, but he was the only one.
     
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  5. OldButGame

    OldButGame Hall of Fame

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    So,...OK,...excuse my slowness,...maybe i need more coffee,...but then it sounds sorta like You're saying,...possibly,...if a person liked the BB11,(like i do,...)...they might like the Legend even more so???....along the same line of the BB11???
     
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  6. TennisMaverick

    TennisMaverick Banned

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    Yes....all of these guys made the switch pretty much in less than 10 minutes.
     
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  7. hoosierbr

    hoosierbr Hall of Fame

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    I demoed the Legend and it's no joke. A very nice all around racquet, good spin potential for an 18 mains frame and very comfortable. Nice sized sweetspot and great ball pocketing.

    However...it is a heavy mother. If you can't swing it w/o getting tired after an hour or less then stay away. Go for something lighter. There's a reason it's made for advanced players. Certainly anyone can use it but if you play a lot of tennis and are serious about your results/improvement/skill level then make sure the frame falls within your comfort zone before you switch to it.
     
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  8. JT_2eighty

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    Sorry if these questions are repetitious, but I did a search to no avail:

    What about any transitions to the Legend from the BB11 SE??

    In another thread we had discussed how the SE has 100% more DNX than the other 11's, so does the Legend also have more 'Delta Core' than the London or other current Beckers?

    Is Delta Core a modified DNX or brand new technology? Is Delta Core unique to the BB line or will be incorporated in Organix or other Volkl's to come?
     
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  9. 1hbhBUX

    1hbhBUX Semi-Pro

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    Some other threads have referred to the Legend as more "club-like" but that is probably more about balance than weight. If you change the grip to leather, you'd probably have something in the 12.2 oz range, but closer to 6 pts head light. Just a suggestion.
     
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  10. OldButGame

    OldButGame Hall of Fame

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    See,...thats what i'm afraid of,...i love the BB11,....but it was a little 'club-like' in the beginning,.....i've read a couple people suggest the Legend can be 'sluggish'....(which to me would be 'club-like),....yet,....the specs are so very close to the BB11,.....:-?
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2010
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  11. OldButGame

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    Ya know,...thats a great thought,...if i weight the tail end, even just a little,...that would bring it 'spot on' to the BB11 !!!!:)
     
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  12. TennisMaverick

    TennisMaverick Banned

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    Everything is relative: There are those who find fully capped grommets to be sluggish, and many who prefer it for the plow thru. It is my experience that the higher the level of play, the more it is the latter. Secondly, if following the standard advice as to using the heaviest stick that you can handle, then you must see whether or not you can wield the stick during non-stressful rallys, and if so, can you do so under physical stress. If you can technically satisfy both of those conditions, then the stick's weight is not an issue.
     
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  13. TennisMaverick

    TennisMaverick Banned

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    Boris obviously made the transition. I'm sure that he added lead tape. I personally tried it, and added lead tape as well, but less than what I would usually use. One of my guys who is a 6.0-6.5 player, used the stick for 6 months using my mods, until he switched to the London, and used even less lead.

    The London, not only uses it throughout the frame, but in the DC Wings as well, so it actually uses more DC than what is in the Legend.

    DeltaCore definitely plays and feels different than DNX; they are two different types of nano carbon. The two lines play very differently now that one uses DNX and the other uses DC. There is a clear difference between the BB and Volkl lines now: the Sportster plays different than the PB V1, and the DC Pro plays different from the PB 8s, as those frames are the most closely related.

    You will need far less lead with DC than with DNX. One reason maybe is that DNX is only used at 3/6/9 or in the past, at 3/9, whereas DC is used throughout the frame--yet doesn't feel overly stiff or harsh. However, the original DNX 10's were considered harsh, and the PB DNX line was adjusted to become more comfortable, even with more DNX in the bridge.

    The Organix line is supposed to be a whole new technology. I have been told that the national sales meeting regarding the Organix line will be held in early December--wish I could be there in SD--so look for more info then.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2010
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  14. db379

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    I happen to have tried the Legend today and I can say that I was really impressed by the feel and feedback to the hand. I can say that TennisMaverick is spot on regarding the feel and performance of the stick. I won't talk about the nano stuff as I'm not sure what we are talking about exactly, but the performance and feel was great.

    JT2, I don't kow if I'll switch to it from the BB11SE but I'd say it's in the same league :)... if you see what I mean. Just different feel, and I could feel the racquet cupping the ball a bit more with hte Legend, which also helped me produce a bit more spin. Touch volleys are a dream. I'd say the two sticks are close, the advantage of the 11SE is that you can overpower anyone on the court with it while keeping great control. I didn't have the same feeling with the Legend.
     
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  15. TennisMaverick

    TennisMaverick Banned

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    D....just add some more lead tape at 3/9/12 to mimick the BB 11 SE.
     
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  16. SVP

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    annoying

    I'm sorry, but the 4 dot or 3 dot thing is really getting to be annoying. It gets in the way of your message, my brother.:)
     
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  17. Bhagi Katbamna

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    I love everything about the racket except the grip shape and that a size 3 grip feels like a size 4 grip.
     
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  18. JT_2eighty

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    Thanks all for the info. The only racquet that really "wow'd" me on court over the last 3-4 years has been the BB11SE, as I demo'd a whole array of newer tech stuff during this time.

    Looks like I may have to demo the Legend and London soon to compare. Sounds like they deliver a similar package at a lighter weight, which will come in handy to my aging & abused shoulder.
     
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  19. 1hbhBUX

    1hbhBUX Semi-Pro

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    This might be slightly off topic, but I'm wondering if anyone knows of plans to replace the BB 11 mid.
     
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  20. TennisMaverick

    TennisMaverick Banned

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    They made a decision a long time ago that the BB Line will not have any 93in2 sticks in the future.
     
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  21. db379

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    TennisMaverick,

    What's the reason only one of your guys switched to the London? I guess they all play with the Legend still, but I'd like to know why they didn't make the switch to the London. Too unstable, less feel, etc... compared to the Legend? The two sticks seem to be very close, but I'm wondering what would be the difference between the two if the London was leaded to match the LEgend.
     
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  22. 1hbhBUX

    1hbhBUX Semi-Pro

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    Interesting about the mid racquets - I didn't realize that they made that decision. I guess they'll keep those with the Volkl brand. Thanks.
     
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  23. TennisMaverick

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    It was due t o the standard reason that I always give. The Legend player over the years has gone from the C10 Pro as a junior, through the T10 Mid- T10 VE Mid- DNX 10 MP- Legend- London, as he progressed between real tennis, college, and back to real tennis. The first two switches were upgrades, and the T10 mid may have been a mistake--he probably should have used the MP, because even though the T10 VE worked well, the DNX 10 MP was an immediate game improvement. He was home from school, on-court outside, Xmas of 2005 in 35 degree weather, with another player, who was playing #1 singles for his respective college, and the game improvement was so obvious, that it took less than 5 "Ah ha"minutes to make the switch.

    The move from the DNX 10 MP to the Legend, rather than the BB 11 MP or PB 10 MP, was because both those sticks lack the feel/precision of the DNX 10 MP, although, the PB 10 MP is close--he used those two sticks for maybe a week each, and went back to the DNX 10 MP--so he waited for an upgrade that would improve his game immediately. However, it was harsh, and he developed wrist issues, so the switch to the Legend, was a comfort decision, plus, this player hits a flat ball, and low balls and half volleys are the big Legend plus because it generates more spin than the DNX 10/PB 10/BB 11 MPs, and besides being able to hit more spin then the other three frames, this extra helps second serves. The improvement in play was subtle, and the stick was demoed for maybe 10 minutes before Volkl was contacted to make the change. Both his practice partner and I had to point out what shots were improved, and even then, the improvement was only about 10%, which relative to match play, is HUGE!

    He used the Legend for perhaps three months, until he play tested the London, and it was another "Ah Ha" 5 minute, if not less decision, as the Futures player he was hitting with and I immediately told him that he had to switch. It was so obvious, that a 5 year old would have observed it.

    The DNX 10 MP, BB 11 MP, Legend, and London, all have different feel. For most players who aren't top pros and having custom lay-ups made for them, efficacy trumps feel in the hand. A 10% improvement is worth more than 4-5 points, when a competitive set goes 40-50 points. The improvement is seen in each points ball quality, speed, spin, height, direction, and its physical effects on your opponents ball quality, which in-turn, translates into the additional psychological and emotional damage that you can do to him over the course of the set, and subsequently, the match, as the damage is cumulative. So trading in feel for efficacy, is A VERY BIG DEAL, and the only deal in town.

    Now if you're Boris, you make the tech guys give you both. Substitute Roger as a current player, but understand that guys like Roddick and Nadal, just want to play with what they grew-up with, but may ask for adjustments that will help their game at whatever juncture they are at.

    To summarize, as I have said it many times, 5-10 minutes with a stick is more than enough. Your ball quality on the other side of the net, as experienced by your practice partner and any other observers, in my case, the coach, would determine the stick's respective/comparative value as to whether or not to make the change. That is the "Ah Ha" moments, and 5 minutes, is probably an exaggeration of the time; it was less. The other switch, to the Legend, was more measured, and required a few more minutes to pick-up the subtlety, although, it was obvious with 2nd serves, and of course, it solved the wrist issues.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2010
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  24. db379

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    Thanks for your detailed response TennisMaverick. As always, it's a pleasure to read your clear explanations, and to have a glimpse of what is really important in tennis through the eyes of a true pro.
     
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  25. coolblue123

    coolblue123 Hall of Fame

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    I switched to the BB London as well from a PDGT. I think PDGT made my game very 1 dimensional (I was a baseline hugger). But with the London, gives me the opportunity to gauge what I am hitting and let me goto the net. The only thing that suffered slightly is that my serve got knock a couple of notches. But I thought it's a good trade off. It made the game more fun for me.
     
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  26. OldButGame

    OldButGame Hall of Fame

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    TennisMaverick;..(or anyone that has played w/ the Legend)

    Would You say the Legend is good for a flat ball hitter?, I get that its great for spins, and why,,..But i'm more of a flat ball ball hitter, wondering how it would be for that?
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2010
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  27. TennisMaverick

    TennisMaverick Banned

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    Yes it is.

    Remember that it is an 18x20. The spin potential exists because of the ball pocketing from the recessed cross string grommets in the sweet spot. The weight/bal from design and capped grommets provides for much plow thru.

    You must understand that the BB 11 SE was unsuccessfully made just for Boris, yet, he had the old Quantum 10 Tour, which he switched to after his Estusa/Puma Supers in the late '90s, had it updated with modern tech, and now, prefers using it to his personally made BB 11 SE. Boris has a very old school game, and drives through even more now, since he rarely plays, and no longer has legs. If you stand next to him, even with jeans on, he looks like a typical tall, lean, man; and at forty+, he has lost a lot of muscle mass.

    Just for comparison, I purchased a Puma Super--which I was going to switch to just before they folded--from courtking, an awesome seller, two weeks ago and hit with both sticks. I can tell why Boris plays with the Legend; the ball quality, dwell time, spin, and feel--sortof--is very close.

    FYI: I played in the very early '80's, and my first satellite was played with an open throat Snauwaert, the same stick that Spalding marketed for Martina, so I still hit very flat. I use the PB 10 Mid, but if I am forced to move, I switch to the Legend or the PB 10 Mid, whichever is handy, and there is lead on them all.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2010
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  28. skeeter

    skeeter Semi-Pro

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    I've been a Volkl fan for most of my tennis days (I'm now 52), using various versions of the V1 most of the time. As I got better (now a strong 4.0+), found that I wanted more of a player's frame, i.e., a little more control, a little more weight, etc. Demo'd a number of racquets (including non-Volkls) and found that I still liked the Volkl feel too much to switch to something else.

    Tried the Legend, PB 10 Mid, PB 10 Mid MP, London, and others. Realized that although I'm not a small guy (6-1, 195lbs), the weight of the first three was just a bit too much for me over a long period of time (along with a sore shoulder that I've been nursing for a while). Found that my ideal weight seems to be in the mid 11oz area (11.4 - 11.7 or so). Really liked the PB 10 MP Light, and found that I enjoyed the 18x20 pattern for it's control (I'm more of a flat hitter than big time topspin, but do put some top on most strokes), but it will need some lead as stock is 10.9. And I don't seem to get as much pop on my serves as I used to with this stick. Really liked demo'ing the London and thinking this might be just about right (great feel, flex, all court playability, better serves), though it has a 16x19 pattern and once in a while it seemed I was landing groundies beyond the baseline; maybe an issue with strings, tension, and technique.

    For those of you like the London and have used some of these other Volkl/Becker sticks, think the London will fit the bill? With the right strings, tension, and maybe some lead here and there, this might be what works best for me for now. Maybe I just need to go for it, buy one, and try it out for a while.
     
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  29. TennisMaverick

    TennisMaverick Banned

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    The London is real easy on the arm and a very natural upgrade from any V1, although the V1 will play like a player's frame if the lead tape is put in the right place.

    The London plays better than any Volkl frame stock; it is really good to go after stringing. Any of my guys who use it, use it at at least, 25-30 grams lower than their normal frame's weight.

    If you have a shoulder issue, string full multi(NXT Tour/NRG2/Volkl Gripper or full gut, but string the crosses 2-4 lbs loser. The London grinds and grips the ball like few other oval frames, but flatter balls will fly a little because of the long dwell time throughout the swing. Dropping the cross string tension, a) because of the DC Wings, b) because you hit flat, and c) because of your shoulder, will optimize the stick for your game style and shoulder issue. The cross string guidelines have been advised from Volkl since 2005 when DNX was introduced.
     
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  30. skeeter

    skeeter Semi-Pro

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    Not sure what you mean here; are you saying that your guys who use a London basically keep it at the stock weight which is lower than the other frames they've used?


    Excellent; thanks for the input. What about lead? Any value to adding a little here and there?
     
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  31. TennisMaverick

    TennisMaverick Banned

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    The (EDIT) LONDON (MY BAD, SORRY GUYS) plays better than any BB/Volkl stick stock after stringing. It is so solid with all of the DeltaCore, that the amount of lead tape that my guys use is 20-30 grams less than what they have used on previous models, and they have zero trouble hitting and returning groundies between 60-80mph. It is a crazy solid stick.

    I would recommend adding lead but it should not be too much, otherwise, you will overwhelm the design attributes and will have difficulty grinding the ball on contact.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2010
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  32. OldButGame

    OldButGame Hall of Fame

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    Hey Tennis,....and I apologize for 'beating a dead horse' here, being a primarily flat hitter, i'm kinda focusing on that, You mentioned the London can tend to 'hit long' with flat hits due to the increased dwell time (which i presume comes from the recessed grommetts), and since the Legend has that same grommett system, can that be an issue for the Legend as well? (hope that was clear).

    (btw, thx for all the great input and info on this Legend!!!)[​IMG]
     
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  33. NoMansLandPlayer

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  34. skeeter

    skeeter Semi-Pro

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  35. TennisMaverick

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  36. TennisMaverick

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  37. TennisMaverick

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    They don't both have recessed cross string grommets; only the Legend does.

    The London can hit flat if you adjust your stringing: same string M/C, stringing crosses 2-4 lbs loser, or poly mains/gut or multi crosses. However, as I have said tons of times, the London is designed to GRIND the ball on-contact.

    If you want a racquet that would hit flat without worrying about a lot of mods, go with the Legend. I did mention Boris' game, the fact that he actually uses this stick, had it re-made from the Q 10 Tour, and dumped the BB 11 SE--which was specifically made for him.

    To hit much flatter than Boris...you'd have to be named Jimmy.
     
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  38. TennisMaverick

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  39. skeeter

    skeeter Semi-Pro

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    Thanks, TennisMav. Of the many racquets I demo'd recently, I really enjoyed the London for a number of reasons, with the only minor drawback being the tendency to hit long, largely due to my flatter technique but I'm sure the demo string setup didn't help either (pretty low tension among other things). I have a leaded up PB 10 Light that I also enjoy but it's a little underpowered, and I enjoyed the extra pop and stability that the London gave me on various strokes. While I don't mind hitting flat balls, I'm working on improving my topspin technique and with the right stringing, leading mods, and tension (and improved form), hope to make the London my main stick for awhile. Just ordered one a few days ago and it's on backlog from the manufacturer (must be in big demand) so using the time to figure out the right setup. Thanks for all the input.
     
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  40. NoMansLandPlayer

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  41. Hominator

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  42. TennisMaverick

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    I would not describe it as feeling heavier than its specs would belay. I would say that it just does more with a lot less. Sounds the same, but it's not.

    I can't help you with your other statements, since, I never hit with a stick stock unless I receive the stick while I am actually on-court, before mods to my playing specs are applied.

    The C10 is a traditional graphite frame, requiring the most lead tape. Hence, in comparison, it is clunky, and produces a lighter ball than the Legend and PB 10 MP. The PB Mid is a 93in2, so there is no comparison; it hits the heaviest ball.

    My perception, after modification, is that the Legend requires a more definite contact point than that of the PB 10 MP. It also moves slower before contact than the PB 10 MP. The Legend grinds better, so it allows for adjustments on-contact. It is also touchier and more difficult to control, but it hits a heavier ball. The PB 10 MP rides on rails, so if you miss with this stick, your game needs a tune-up.

    As to the Legend "to almost snap back to the right position through the swing"...it's the capped grommets. So did the T10 Mid and T10 VE Mid.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2010
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  43. db379

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    I compared some more the the Legend and the SE... To me the SE is truly THE STICK! It blends all the attributes of these old school solid heavy and stable sticks of old, but here's the catch... it comes stock with a ton of lead (about 20g if I remember correctly), and this scared away a lot of people, understandably so, bc SW of 377 is no joke! BUT, once all this lead is removed, the racquet plays like a feather AND still retains all its qualities. It's still super solid, stable, powerful and it's now super easy to swing! Now, don't get me wrong the Legend is fine stick, one of the best produced today, but it doesn't hold a candle to the SE (both sticks were very lightly leaded) when you compare them side by side. The SE was specially engineered for Boris himself, and produced in a limited number. This is a very different stick than the regular BB11 (also a fine stick). Let me try to explain: to me the SE reminds me of the Head PT280s Made in Austria, great solid stick with a very special feel, as opposed to the later prestige efforts (not as solid feeling). The great thing I find about the SE is that it is a blend between old school characteristics (solid, stable, control) and a modern feel (more powerful, a bit stiffer and definitely bigger sweetspot). I believe this stick is the perfect blend of modern and old for players who like a old school stick but are looking for modern attributes too. I guess the only thing better than the SE might be some of the pro stock frames (PT57A etc...) but I cannot compare to these. Frankly, I would easily put the SE above anything I've tried among current sticks. The price these were originally selling for was ridiculous (500€ in some european retailers!), and the price these were discounted for at TW later on was the best deal in town! Some of the best sticks around were selling for next to nothing. I cannot believe anyone would pay $200 for a current china made crap without any feel. Let's not forget that the PT280 (China made too, but with much better materials than today) was selling for nothing ($69) 10 years ago at TW! These sticks were very solid and better than anything one can buy from regular production today. I would say the Legend is a good effort to reproduce this quality feel of older sticks, but the SE feels more solid and better.
     
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  44. TennisMaverick

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    It's very simple: The BB 11, in any version, is a traditional graphite frame with DNX nano carbon applied to the outside of the frame. The BB 11 SE has twice the amount of DNX, but for Boris, it was still not enough, hence, he had lead tape applied at 3/6/12, as one would expect to be needed for a traditional frame. Basically, the DNX Wings and Cap above the grip, does what lead tape does at a much lighter weight on a traditional frame. Lastly, the stick was sold cheap as a closeout frame, because TW bought all of them from BB/Volkl, since they were basically unsellable at the price of $499 USD.

    The DNX Volkl line, as the next step, integrated the DNX into the frame in the same areas, producing a totally different feel as a traditional/modern frame hybrid.

    Boris, never liked the BB 11. PERIOD. And at Forty+, a modern frame makes life easier, even for a former world champion and multiple grand slam winner. TAKE NOTE!
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2011
    #44
  45. tailofdog

    tailofdog Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2007
    Messages:
    497
    Just Ordered

    I ordered the Becker Pro (ORANGE ONE) to see if i could use it. Well my wife loves it and, now has it. I just ordered the LEGEND. How much lead would you suggest at 3,9 and,12?
     
    #45
  46. TennisMaverick

    TennisMaverick Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
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    4,293
    At any rate, if you are going to beef-it-up, do so at the shoulders and 3/9. You may also want to add some in the "V" of the throat. The problem is that for a woman, it will make it very heavy. This is quite a substantial frame. It is made from the Quantum 10 tour mold, with a fully capped grommet. BITD, many posters said that they cut the grommets down to regular size. That made no sense to my team, because capped grommets provide for better plow-thru, but those who trimmed it, needed a lighter frame.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2010
    #46
  47. tailofdog

    tailofdog Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2007
    Messages:
    497
    Legend

    The Legend is for me. I will see how it plays and look at the one you have. My wife loves the Pro at 11 oz but i need a heavier racquet. I live in Australia so, some frames are hard to demo. PM me if you can
     
    #47
  48. TennisMaverick

    TennisMaverick Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
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    4,293
    PM?

    As an addendum, if I had to choose where to add the tape by priority, I would say, 3/9, then "V" throat, then shoulders.

    I'm not familiar with Australian prices compared to the States, but Europeans and Asians who buy in the States and ship home, save substantially. I helped out db379 above, and he must have saved many hundreds of dollars.
     
    #48
  49. Fed Kennedy

    Fed Kennedy Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2008
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    4,797
    Location:
    With Roger
    Hey mav, any substantial changes to the legend in the upcoming melbourne besides the pj?
     
    #49
  50. TennisMaverick

    TennisMaverick Banned

    Joined:
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    4,293
    I'm getting a little different info from my sources...it will be a different lay-up, but will also be slightly different then the Legend, even though it is the upgrade. Waiting to hear if it is from the same mold.
     
    #50

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