Revised USTA Proposals for National Junior Competition Structure

Discussion in 'Junior League & Tournament Talk' started by HIGH-TECH TENNIS, Feb 22, 2012.

  1. HIGH-TECH TENNIS

    HIGH-TECH TENNIS Rookie

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    Thanks to Colette Lewis at zootennis, we now have an easy-to-read version of the changes that will be voted on in March...

    Here it is...
     
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  2. seminoleG

    seminoleG Semi-Pro

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    Humm can someone smart take this legalize and explain what this means for the 12s? vice what we Have today. I was just learning how Sectional/Regionals worked so I need some tutoring.
     
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  3. HIGH-TECH TENNIS

    HIGH-TECH TENNIS Rookie

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    You are not alone!

    I couldn't understand it either! I'm hoping for the best but...
     
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  4. mrmo1115

    mrmo1115 Hall of Fame

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    Can anyone put these changes in a more simpler fashion? No more Easter Bowl, but a different tournament instead? No more Winters, and instead it'll be a Team tournament like the NCAAs? Clays and Hards only 2 Supers remaining? Masters/Sweet 16 tournaments? Jeez I'm confused. Luckily I'm not going to be in the Junior Circuit any longer after this year.
     
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  5. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    It's funny how the junior ITF tournaments and ranking system works so well, with little to no changes.

    I'm sure they operate on a much, much smaller budget, compared to 14 million spent every year by the USTA.
     
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  6. Soianka

    Soianka Hall of Fame

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    I can't answer all of those questions, but I think the Easter Bowl will be pretty much the same. It will still be an ITF tournament for the 18's and a USTA tournament for everyone else. Perhaps the 12, 14 and 16 tournament will be called something different but it seemed to say it will be held the same time as the ITF Easter Bowl.
     
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  7. 10ismom

    10ismom Semi-Pro

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    I skimmed through the new proposals. It is very complicated but USTA acknowledges that they will make sure changes being phased in and explained to coaches, parents and players.
    USTA noted that changes based on "Advance Your Game" logic.

    Here is what I think applied to the 12s:

    New proposals- Cutting draw size at L1 National from 128 to 64- Most 12s and under are still developing their games and technique, USTA wants them compete closer to home (more emphasis on training, less competition out of section, less travel and money spent for parents, prevent burnout for juniors). If juniors are succesful in their section, they could be endorsed to play their new regionals (L2 in the proposal), or even advance to other national tournaments.

    Section tournaments will have more L3 and L4 levels. L5 will be eliminated.

    National opens will be eliminated but there are a lot more new proposed tournaments to play (Easter Bowl-like, National selection, National team winter,..etc.) either by sectional endorsement quotas or national standings. These proposed tournaments are so complicated to understand.....and I'm sure...everyone here feels the same.

    New regionals are being created from adjoining sections- more competitive opponents could be found closer without having to play nationals.

    Current system- Regionals are L3 and national opens are L2. Juniors from any section can apply and get in by their national standings.
    Some parents travel out of their sections to weaker tourns. With the new proposals, juniors get into regionals by their section's quotas only. No hopping around to chase point. Zonals (L2) in current system is already sectionally endorsed.
     
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  8. thepastord

    thepastord New User

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    Seems to be a lot of folks saying the same thing! That is what a fiasco it has turned into, USTA - Juniors, people are fleeing............ Get ready folks, it is going to get worse. Thank God, my family is done! We would never go through this system again. Definitely play tennis, but we would have nothing to do with the USTA system /route, and I mean *Nothing*. I can't believe how bad the USTA Tennis Plague has gotten over the past four years......
     
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  9. Keysmickey

    Keysmickey Rookie

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    Agree. We're done just one year and we'd never go this route if my kids were younger. USTA and mr. self important have absolutely no clue what is best for junior American tennis.
     
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  10. Soianka

    Soianka Hall of Fame

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    It does seem like the USTA is trying to make things simpler; however, these rules seem awfully complex.

    I think they should have a system where each sanctioned tournament is given a level on the same scale such as

    Level 1 = National Level 1
    Level 2 = National Level 2
    Level 3 = National Level 3
    Level 4 = Sectional level 1
    Level 5 = sectional level 2
    level 6 = sectional level 3
    level 7 = state level 1
    level 8 = state level 2

    etc

    You have to do well at each lower level to advance to the next highest level.

    That would be simple enough. Easy to understand.
     
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  11. Soianka

    Soianka Hall of Fame

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    What would you do if your kids wanted to play tennis? There don't seem to be many other options at this point.
     
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  12. MomTennis

    MomTennis New User

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    Our area did the 1-8 levels four years ago and it worked well. But that is not the solution as it is the limited sizes of the draws that makes it difficult to get into the higher level tournaments. Level 8 everyone gets in but by Level 1 only the top 4 in each section get in - a funnel effect - if you have 400-500 kids ranked in the section only 1 out of 100 will get in and once those four get in and get points then those kids will be the kids to get into the next Level 1 - if all 4 age up then then next 4 out of the 400 get in but you are still making it almost impossible for anyone below the top 4-5 in the section to ever play a national tournament.
     
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  13. Keysmickey

    Keysmickey Rookie

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    I'll be honest and admit I'm big on hyperbole in my writing, so yes if my kids wanted to play tennis I would devise a plan to the best of my ability. But, I would also strongly suggest they pick up second school sport (volleyball) and see how that goes.

    I can say with very strong conviction that my daughter, a late starter to tennis at 12 and living in a non tennis playing area could never make it to D1 tennis (like she did) in today's environment. I just can't see a logical path. Now, I know this is a different scenario, but should the players with unusual circumstances be left out because they don't come from an academy or have many playing opportunities?

    We were the familiy that many aound here disparage. We traveled and chased not only points but more importantly match play - tournaments were her only place to play matches, sad but true. Optimal? Hardly, but she did succeed despite the odds to the contrary and without things like larger draw sizes across the board we'd have had no chance.
     
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  14. seminoleG

    seminoleG Semi-Pro

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    OK some of the more successfully 2001-2002 (birth year) kids are being sent invitations by USTA Florida to attend a Regional Development Camp, GREEN BALL! Hospitality, no travel for 3 days.

    Also states that future camps not based on just ranking.

    So maybe the USTAs plan identify kids early, take financial and competitive pressure of travel and point chasing away so kids train. Then give them WCs into certain events?

    Seems to me if you don't get them @8-9-10, you risk losing kids that wold have been your brightest prospects?

    Or since GREEN BALL entries are so low this is a second tier marketing push to get Florida kids playing?

    Either way if what they say in the invite is true:
    -ID kids that "MAY" fit the bill
    -Follow their progress
    -Evaluate periodically (with their coach)
    -Povide a path or success
    Then I'm in, and welcome the support.
     
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  15. 10ismom

    10ismom Semi-Pro

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    ^^^^^^^^ seminoleG, I don't think the inviatation is a market push from low participants for green ball tournaments in Florida. Our state has similar program and uses green dot balls to train kids 12 and under. Check the link below. The USTA apparently is trying to expand their player development program to reach more talented juniors in community.

    http://www.usta.com/About-USTA/Play..._as_usta_certified_regional_training_centers/

    With growing numbers of juniors from QS/10 and under population, the logical way to develop more potential talents for USTA is to reach out and work with coachesand resources in different regions.

    It is "not smart" to put all or most of their eggs in one basket (only a handful of young player developmental kids).
    Promising kids under 10-12 do not mean much or guarantee great 16-18s tennis players. Let parents invest in their children and USTA supplement and ensure their progress.

    I have to say I admire the USTA effort to reach out more.
     
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  16. Milan

    Milan Rookie

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    Ok, While the USTA have no idea what they're doing (changing things all the time), this seems to be a move in the right direction.

    Are these changes effective immediately??

    * 64 Draws...for Super Nationals
    * National Opens Eliminated
    * Regionals can be played ONLY through Sectional Ranking

    Also, the Easterbowl & Winter's... What will their Draw sizes be?

    Lastly, how will each section be graded? New York(East), Florida & California are clearly the strongest sections. Will they get more spots to Super Nationals then other Sections?
     
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  17. HIGH-TECH TENNIS

    HIGH-TECH TENNIS Rookie

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    Unless someone can understand/explain the upcoming changes so that we have the opportunity to can make adjustments, etc., it seems we're back in the wait-and-see mode. What am I missing?
     
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  18. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    We are in a wait and see. The vote is in March.

    1) This proposal in this thread is the Feb proposal that just makes the changes to the original proposal.
    It is not the complete proposal therefore.

    2) The complete original proposal is in the thread Junior Trenches.
    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=410674&page=2

    3) Overall, they had cut the Clay and Hard courts down to 64, now the Feb proposal looks like they brought it up to 128.
    Except for the 12's - it is still at 64.

    There is some very tricky language here where they add more wild cards to the clay and hard courts under the reasoning in this Feb proposal that the draw size went from 64 to 128. But in fact, that is still a cut from the ORIGINAL size today.

    4) They had moved clay to Memorial day, and now it appears they are moving it back to the summer.

    5) Changes take place in 2014, however the original document had the L3 in July being reduced from 8 tournament sites to 4 tournament sites in the summer of 2013.

    6) The 12's are really shut out too with small national draw sizes.
    ( The Clay and Hard have been brought back up to 128 from 64 for 14, 16, and 18
    WHICH IS STILL A BIG CUT FROM THE ORIGINAL......
    BUT FOR THE 12'S - IT IS STILL 64 DRAW!!!).
    The rational must be they don't want them to travel.
    But, the juniors in the small sections really suffer under this.
    Plus, they just will have squeezed all the 10's out of playing any competition,
    so unless the goal is to get rid of 10's and 12's, I can't understand how reducing play helps anyone.

    7) We are left with two supernationals - Clay and Hard.
    Winter Super Nats will be a 16 draw, with 6 wildcards.
    Easter Bowl is just 32 draw, except for the 18's.

    8) Folks - please read the documents and call your sectional offices.
    Don't rely on anonymous posters, such as myself, on an internet board to interpret these documents.
    I might be reading for one age group, or you might pick up a completely different view.
    Please come to your own conclusions, but do voice your own opinion to your sectional office.

    IT SEEMS WE HAVE MADE SOME PROGRESS WITH THE 64 DRAW BEING INCREASED TO 128, BUT IT IS STILL A BIG CUT.

    AND WHY SHOULD ONLY 16 PLAYERS GET TO COMPETE FOR A GOLD BALL AT WINTER NATIONALS?
    ( AND YOU KNOW IT IS GOING TO BE ALL THE PLAYER DEVELOPMENT JUNIORS...... A TOTAL RIGGED GAME).

    THINK ABOUT IT.....
    LOOK AT THE FEB L2 THAT JUST HAPPENED THIS WEEKEND.
    ( This is not a proposal, this is right now.)
    MANY 4 STAR AND 5 STAR PLAYERS SAT ON AN ALTERNATE LIST AND NEVER GOT IN.
    WHY HAS THE USTA DECIDED FOR US....... THAT 4 STAR AND 5 STAR PLAYERS CAN'T COMPETE?
    This is ridiculous... If you were going to call and complain about one thing, I would start here.
    HOW DOES IT HELP PLAY TO NOT ACTUALLY PLAY AT ALL................

    THESE L2 DRAWS SHOULD BE 64.
    THE USTA IS COMPLETELY ELIMINATING THE STEPS THAT A JUNIOR NEEDS TO TAKE TO MOVE UP IN AGE GROUPS.
    TENNIS IS A SERIES OF STEPS, YOU CAN'T JUST JUMP THEM OR YOU WILL MISS STAGES OF DEVELOPMENT.

    AND SOME JUNIORS FROM AGE 11 TO AGE 18 WILL NEVER LEAVE THEIR SECTION AGAIN WITH THESE NEW PROPOSALS.
    SOME JUNIORS FOR 7 STRAIGHT YEARS WILL PLAY THE SAME TEN KIDS OVER AND OVER AGAIN.
    Sure, Fed and Nadal play each other over and over again,
    but they weren't stuck playing the same ten kids for 7 years straight as a junior.......
    THAT IS A DEATH BELL FOR JUNIOR TENNIS IN AMERICA.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2012
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  19. seminoleG

    seminoleG Semi-Pro

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    I must say agree 100%. Seems this has been in the works and the new structure is there to support their (USTAs) kids. I've long said those with economic access to troop all across america may have the most points but results have proven not the best players. If the USTA is serious then these camps, at RTCs may be a step in the right direction.


    Regional Training Centers | USTA

    The establishment of Regional Training Center’s (RTC’s) will enable us to partner with the best Regional programs in the country, building relationships between our best coaches, and raising the level of training for our best  8-14 year-old juniors.

    The partnerships will also make the transition of the very best juniors in the country (ages 14-16) into our National program, more seamless. As we establish more and more RTC’s we will be able train hundreds of our juniors (ages 10-14) close to home, and facilliate relationships between their coaches and our National Coaches. We will be able to track the development and performance of these juniors, and build strong relationships with their coaches and parents.

    More information on Regional Training Centers:

    The establishment of Regional Training Centers will enable us give juniors in the Sections an opportunity to receive High Performance training near their homes, enabling them to attend school and live with their families. It also provides them with supplementary coaching that doesn’t threaten their private coach.
    The Regional Center also provides the Section with an opportunity to provide High Performance coaching and great competitive opportunities for talented juniors who might not otherwise be able to afford it.
    The Regional Centers provide the Section with subsidized programming to enhance the recruitment of very young players (ages 6-10) Using the Quickstart format, and age-specific equipment – we have an opportunity to grow the talent pool with better athletes than ever before.
    Why Regional Training Centers?

    Because a player’s foundation is built between the ages of 8 and 14.
    Because the most critical coaching phase is 8 – 12 (girls), 10- 14(boys).
    Because maturity is a function of socialization. Most kids need their family.
    Because it’s a TEAM effort. RTC’s will help us create hubs of collaboration and co-operation which will greatly increase the number of juniors we develop.
     
    #19
  20. Milan

    Milan Rookie

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    With their Budget:

    *Build 9 Regional Training Centers
    (State of the Art with Physical Fitness/Massage/Pool/Weight Room/Track/Physio Center):
    New York(Expand US Open), Chicago, Miami, Los Angeles, Texas, Utah, Detroit, Georgia, Boston.

    *Allow All Players Top 200 in the United States in BG 12-18 or a few Wild Card Kids who do not play in the USTA System to play at the Center and use the facilities For Free or Small Fee. Allow Coaches to come for Seminars. Allow The Coaches to Give lessons on those courts (paying for courts of course), and use the Gyms etc. Coaches must complete a course and be accepted to receive these privileges, but once they do, THEY CANNOT BE TOLD HOW TO COACH.

    *Hire Physical Trainers, Stringers, Physios, Masseuse, etc. to take care of the players, and allow certain players to get this treatment, and others to be able to pay for it.

    * Have Different Clubs (Training Centers) Compete against each other a few times per year to see which Region is strongest.

    *Simplify & localize Tournament Structure. Best Players (Top 64) Compete at Super National Events. If you're 20 in your section, you won't be a Professional, so need to play "Nationals"... Play Regional & Sectional Events and save your money.

    BAM, within 10 years you will have MASSIVE amounts of Players Turning Professional. The USTA can take all of the credit like they're desperate for, yet Coaches don't have their talent stolen, and everyone's happy....


    THE END.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2012
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  21. TennisFan2Day

    TennisFan2Day Rookie

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    Great concept, unfortunately it makes too much sense for the USTA to even consider it.
     
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  22. seminoleG

    seminoleG Semi-Pro

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    ^^^^^ Actually the USTA is moving this way with some of what was written. Consider this huge enterprise takes a while to change direction.

    They are involving the Personal coaches in the Development programs.

    They are moving away from Ranking and using a Talent ID (???) along with other factors.

    They (I'm not a USTA flunkie) are turning the ship. I must admit taking into account factors BESIDES RANKING is a big shift in thinking.
     
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  23. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    This is all sounds rather interesting, but maybe you can start a new thread so it doesn't get lost in this thread.
     
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  24. TennisFan2Day

    TennisFan2Day Rookie

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    ^^^^^ Talent ID has been going on since they started the Player Development. If they were going away from Rankings then why did they increase the points for supers so dramatically while asking for more wildcards?

    Personal coaches, I happen to know two of the coaches they contacted but both of those coaches turned it down because they are not interested in teaching the "green ball" methodology.

    When you make draws smaller and limit where players can play you are not "growing the game" you are stiffling it.

    In the meantime the USGA is adding more qualifying tournaments for the Jr Amateur Championship. In the early 80s there were 16 qualifying sites of 96 players. Last year there were 61 qualifying sites of 96 players. The total number of entries trying to qualify for the Junior Amateur is up to 4,500. The reason they keep adding more, is because more people want to play and the USGA knows that if you are good enough you will make it and the rest won't. The difference is that the USGA isn't in the business of trying to build a champion by being arrogant enough to take 8 kids in each age group to a private course everyday and thinking that they know everything. They don't travel them all around the country burning up millions of dollars. Instead they build a model structure that grows the game despite a downfall in the economy.
     
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  25. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    TennisFan2Day,

    I wish Pat Mac would have a press conference, and you would be a reporter there and pepper him with this and the wildcard questions. :)
     
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  26. seminoleG

    seminoleG Semi-Pro

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    USTA is trying to put teeth in their approach
    - Keep the 12s training
    - Rankings aren't only prerequisite for entry Into PD
    - PD identifying kids as young as 6 is a recent change
    - following these kids AND their personal coaches
    - Yes if coaches don't wanna use Green Ball then take another path. That's OK but USTA feels its an important part. Agree or not these are substantial changes

    As for WCs. well if you train more, play less does that make you a lessor payer? I've seen a lot of recent WCs do well so what's the issue. Parents that dance around the US and are 1st alternate getting in vice a kid training, preparing and not traveling?

    After the Topn10% rankings mean nothing. Period.
     
    Last edited: Feb 29, 2012
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  27. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    I have seen a lot of juniors who receive wild cards for national tournaments not make it to even the round of 16.......

    The issue is that players who have no connections, no pull, are being passed over for the Player development kids.

    I would have no problem with that if the PD kids were higher ranked or better players, but they are not.

    Weird thing I have about myself - Unfairness and corrupt systems really bother me.

    I actually hope this thread can return to it's original purpose which was to discuss the Feb proposal.
     
    Last edited: Feb 29, 2012
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  28. seminoleG

    seminoleG Semi-Pro

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    Well this is about Feb proposal, which contains more WCs.

    So a WC is only validated if they make the round of 16?

    I'm for spreading the wealth but I cant see how a kid with no ties to the USTA should get one. Their not ranked hi enough AND have no link to the USTA.

    Ok so how do you rate who gets them other than Qs?
     
    #28
  29. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    Seminole,

    Have you been drinking the Kool aide?

    Your line is Their not ranked hi enough AND have no link to the USTA.

    In the scenarios that I have been discussing:

    First, the non PD players were ranked higher than the PD players.
    So, their is a wait list or alternate list, and the non PD player has a higher number on the list than the PD player.
    Why is the non PD player higher on the alternate list?
    Because they are ranked higher on the national standing list.
    What angers people is that the lower PD player gets to pass over the non PD player and then doesn't do that well.


    Second, I am not following they "have no link to the USTA."
    Anyone who plays in a national tournament is a member of the USTA and pays dues.
    Shouldn't a USTA member be considered as having a "link to the USTA"?

    Actually, in the Pat Mac world, you are right, no USTA junior, unless a PD player, has a link to the USTA.
    My bad for not acknowledging the system as is.
    God forbid, we would actually want to make it better for all juniors.
     
    Last edited: Feb 29, 2012
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  30. seminoleG

    seminoleG Semi-Pro

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    No I am one of the harsher critics of the USTA, and know several juniors trapped in it.

    I also see very hi ranked kids not part of PD losing as you see lower ranked PD kids losing.

    My basic issue is RANKING proves very little it seems USTA is moving from it as the catch all be all. I continue to see point chasers travel to weaker sections, pile on insignificant victories and get into the highest level events., and do very little.

    So shrink the draws eliminate kids that have little chance and take control of WCs for kids that for whatever reason are part of PD.

    My daughter played a girl in a Regionl who traveled from Chicago to get a seed and some easy victories after she saw list of competitors. So he she drew a 9 yr ok then a 10 when she meet a 12 she lost, and that girl didn't have no where near the points. Now she is Top 20 in her section and barley beat 2 U10 players. So IF she was first alternate she (can't win against her peers) should get in over a PD kid that is rising with promise in the eyes of those that know tennis? Or reward her for her families perseverance to troop across the US?

    So in the end some kids can play, some can move, some can focus can they win, don't know but I bet you can spot those who can't!

    Understand I'm talking about how the future should work those 8-9-10s. As for those in the system now, it is flawed, and I agree with you slanted to those with access.
     
    Last edited: Feb 29, 2012
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  31. jonkras

    jonkras New User

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    New USTA Proposal

    Here is my 2 cents:

    * The new proposal is byzantine. It is very hard to understand. You have thousands of kids and parents. Why do you want to make life so hard? It will turn people off. There is no reason for it. Makes no sense.

    * Making Clay Courts and Hard Courts go from 192 to 128 - why? What problem does it solve? Many kids ranked from 129 - 192 beat kids ranked higher. Most of the matches at these tournaments are competitive. It's a big deal for kids to play in the tournaments. Also, larger draws make it easier for college coaches to look at kids. The larger draws bring tons of money into places like Kalamazoo. Of course the original proposal was to go to 64 draw -- that was beyond insane, and shows you the mindset of the people making these changes.

    * The idea of rationalizing Regional tournaments geographically is actually a good idea, as kids do not fly to Hawaii or Rapid City SD to chase points.

    * The quota system is very bad. Quotas are never good for anyone. What these quotas will do is perpetuate the inequalities that exist today -- namely that kids who are qualified don't make tournaments and vice versa.

    * The large number of wild cards are awful -- if the USTA kids are so good, why can't they just earn their way into the nationals like everyone else? So what if they have to play a few more tournaments. Scared of competition?

    * The overall effect of the changes are to allow for fewer slots to play nationals. This effects virtually everyone in some way. Some kids will never play nationals, and some kids will play fewer nationals. Only the very top will play as much or more than they do today.

    * Junior tennis is much more than producing the next Sampras. In fact, it is mostly NOT about that. It IS about teaching lots of kids tennis and giving them lots of opportunities to compete. And that is a good thing, and that is what the USTA should be all about. If more kids play junior tennis, then more adults play tennis.

    * To be honest, this proposal parallels what is happening in our political system right now. Let's rig the system for the top 1% and screw everybody else. Let's not let this happen. Every parent I have spoken to in my section hates it (about 20 parents).

    Want to do something about it? Complain. Here you go:

    USTA Junior Competition: jrcomp@usta.com
    Tim Russell, USTA Junior Competition Committe Chair: Timothy.Russell@asu.edu
     
    #31
  32. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    I think you are trying to say that non worthy players are treking across the country to play nationals.
    Ok. I am not familiar with what section Chicago falls into, but being 20 in your section is not great unless you are in the first year of that age group. Perhaps there was no tournament near Chicago? And she had to fly to the closest one.

    I am not familiar with the 12's.
    This weekend was not a regional, L3, but a L2 and there were only 4 in the entire country.
    So, many people had to fly or drive a few hours to get to one.

    In regards to the regionals, that your daughter played in, I think it is a shame that 9 and ten year olds can't play in their own tournament.
    And I understand the example you are making, and no offense to the Chicago girl,
    if you are not a good player it doesn't matter where you go, you are not going to win.

    You state, "a PD kid that is rising with promise in the eyes of those that know tennis" should get a wild card.
    Well first the USTA doesn't own the patent of what makes a great tennis player.
    There are many coaches in this country not affiliated with the USTA that have done a great job with juniors.

    I think we are going to have disagree. I think juniors should get into a tournament based on merit.
    I dislike systems where you have to kiss up to get something.

    What I would like is a qualifying tournament with the winner being rewarded the wc.
    However, as I pointed out in another post by using the public names (it was in another website) of junior tennis players that played for a chance to be in a tournament, the entire tournament was made up of .... yes, you got it, PD players.
    Way to rig the system.

    I think that hard work being rewarded is what made our country great. Sue me. I am a patriot.
     
    Last edited: Feb 29, 2012
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  33. klu375

    klu375 Semi-Pro

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    If qualifying for the Nationals is based strictly on sectional play they need many wildcards to accommodate out of area players in their full-time programs. It is OK if the draws are large but if they are small then this looks like cheating.
     
    #33
  34. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    This is great. Thanks for adding another name and email.
    But, folks please reach out to your sectionals.
    They do listen and represent the junior tennis players in their section and will be part of the March vote.
     
    Last edited: Feb 29, 2012
    #34
  35. Tcbtennis

    Tcbtennis Professional

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    seminoleG, this is just a guess but did your daughter just participate in one of the USTA Player Development Regional Camps. Your opinion has been modified after attending the mandatory parent meetings that happen during the camp. Am I right?

    Not to say that what you think is wrong. But my child has been to one of their camps and he loved it. It was a great feeling that your child's accomplishments are being recognized by the governing body of American tennis. But once you leave the camp you still have to keep a discerning eye out and advocate for your daughter. What the USTA had determined is best for the whole of junior tennis is in their best interests not necessarily what is in the interest for the individual junior player.
     
    #35
  36. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    Yes, I found it interesting that SeminoleG said in regards to the distribution of the wildcards -

    "....I'm for spreading the wealth but I cant see how a kid with no ties to the USTA should get one.
    Their not ranked hi enough AND have no link to the USTA...."


    "....a PD kid that is rising with promise in the eyes of those that know tennis"


    I guess that is why I asked if he was drinking the kool aide.

    It was an interesting switch from bashing the USTA Pd and wild cards,

    ( In regards to wild cards in older posts, he had stated in caps, "JUST ADD QUALIES")

    to now kissing up.

    Hey, if that is how you have to move your player forward... Good luck.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2012
    #36
  37. seminoleG

    seminoleG Semi-Pro

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    Yes I've been talking with two separate points of reference One accounting for the new changes and justification, the other as you stated my KING for a day view:
    -No we haven't been to a PD camp
    -Qualies, Qualies, Qualies. That is the best way to get the best players in all events. This is the RIGHT approach. Won't happen!
    -Yes I do believe RANKINGS have been watered down by cross sectional play, and folks trooping across America. I've seen it so something has to be fixed.
    Yes that girl left her regional for a better seeding in Florida.
    - WCs are one way to deal with this and I get the feeling the new changes are taking this issue head on. Once again without Qualies how do you get xxxxxxxx into these events. Yes USTA owns them, and if it means Talent ID, and PD camps then that's what it is. But Qualies, Qualies, Qualies fixes all of this. Will a true point chaser fly across America for a Q knowing they may get 1, or 2 wins for no points?

    Now my plan as I have access to ITF cities in my normal travels:
    -very few events if any until 11 Train, Train.....
    -more USTA events @ 11-12
    -ITF Grade 4/5 @13

    Goal is an ITF Junior ranking (age 13-17) hi enough to get in main draw for events that USTA points are just out of reach with limited tourney play, and be in position for College.

    I know several taking this course only difference they did USTA 12s, 14s, 16s, and all to a man tell me they wasted time and money in the 14s-16s. As I stated when they started showing in main draws of top events with US kids fighting thru Qs they realized they made the right moves. Bigger issue these kids had massive points, but always in Qs vs foreigners with ITF points in MD.
     
    #37
  38. Tcbtennis

    Tcbtennis Professional

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    I apologize for my assumption. With all the confusing language in the USTA proposal it is difficult for me to tease out all the changes that they want to make. I assume the worst and hope for the best. All I know is that my children love tennis and love competing and I don't want any bureaucratic changes that limit the opportunities for them. My goal is not to make a professional player (that is for my children to decide based on the amount of hard work and effort that they are willing to put forth) but to raise independent, respectful who do the best they are capable of doing. I believe that my children are very talented (as most parents do) and can go far in this sport but with the USTA proposals and their cherry picking I don't think that it is an level playing field.
     
    #38
  39. Sunbeam

    Sunbeam New User

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    Overflow - Overload

    The Claremont Grade 4 ITF. A 64 draw, 64 Qualifying has 247 highly qualified entrants.... :neutral:
     
    #39
  40. treeman10

    treeman10 Semi-Pro

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    ---------------------
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2012
    #40
  41. justinmadison

    justinmadison Semi-Pro

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    I don’t think people realize what a disservice the USTA has done to US junior tennis by eliminating the majority of ITF tournaments. Just to put this in perspective Sweden, with a population of 9.5 million people, has 5 ITF tournaments. The US, with a population of 313 million, has 6 ITF tournaments. Sweden would not even be a section in the USTA.

    The USTA, like any predatory monopoly, has work as hard as they can to eliminate the competition. I would love to hear their reasoning on how it helps US tennis for them to eliminate ITF competition.
     
    #41
  42. Sunbeam

    Sunbeam New User

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    Not the dreaded "point chaser' - Just call them Match Chasers

    The Acceptance List for the Claremont ITF (Grade 4) has now been posted:

    I see not so many USA kids in the Main Draw list. Some youngish Blue Chips, a 4-Star, a couple of older 5-Stars....(this is just from the names I recognize) A lot of foreign kids. (Academy kids?, ITF point chasers? foreign teen phenoms? ... I don't know.... wish more USA kids could compete against them since frankly, they will be more favorably considered for American college tennis spots with their ITF rankings...)

    Just to clarify the level of players, I see many Blue Chips and 5-Stars on the Qualifying List AND the Alternate list. USA and Foreign players are on these lists.


    The thing that is apparent is that there are many players out there who are hungry for matches and tournaments regardless of USTA points. 145 kids are on the alternate list. Surprise! These kids all want MATCHES in a tournament setting.

    Human nature: Otherwise, what is there to work and sacrifice a large chunk of your childhood/teen years for???? They love tennis and they want to play! They want to COMPETE. They want to meet up with new competitors. Not the same old kids who they probably play a ton of practice matches with (in addition to in-section play) if they are any kind of serious about their training.

    Prediction: Men's Opens will soon be innundated with even more Juniors looking for matches.
     
    #42
  43. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    This is the norm, not the exception.

    Even super nationals have much longer wait list (Americans only), that USTA should use alittle business sense (supply and demand) and keep or increase draw sizes, or change to a qualifying rounds for supers, and other national tournaments.

    I too believe we will see juniors entering "OPEN" tournaments in droves.
     
    #43
  44. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    Sorry, dumb question.

    But, how do they pick who gets to play the qualifier if it is 64, and there are 247 applicants. Or am I reading this wrong?
     
    #44
  45. tennisforlife77

    tennisforlife77 Rookie

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    There are 102 acceptances - 46 in the maindraw leaving room for 8 WC's ,8 qualifiers and 2 special exempts and then 56 for qualifiers with room for 8 WC's. The special exempt spot are reserved for player who get to the final rounds of an event the previous week and who are unable to make the start of qualifiers.. I think the poster is referring to the total of 247 entries so there are +/- 145 kids an the waitlist. There are many more withdrawls from ITF events given the distances etc so quite a few of those will advance to qualies
     
    #45
  46. seminoleG

    seminoleG Semi-Pro

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    Yes we've seen #200 get in, ITFs do have a large number of WDs.
     
    #46
  47. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    Thanks for explaining.
     
    #47
  48. tennisforlife77

    tennisforlife77 Rookie

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    For many of the lower level ITF tournaments you do not need an itf ranking. If there are places in the qualifying draw after all ranked players are accepted then they give priority first to applicants from the host nation (eg USA) and then from the region (North/Central America) . Those acceptances are based on the national standings. Its a good system , pretty simple to understand and i think well suited to a big country like the US.
     
    #48
  49. watergirl

    watergirl New User

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    I helped out with a low level ITF. This is the way that one worked. There is a check in time the day before for the qualis and the main draw. If you were not checked in or if the trounament manager did not know you were coming (such as plane delayed but on your way etc...) then those spots were opened to whoever was there. For the main draw those in the qualies got first right into the main.

    So let's say for the main draw 6 people did not show and 14 people who did not qualifiy throught the qualies put their name in for a wild card. They would number everyone 1 -14 no preference given to ranking. Then they would take a bag with the numbers 1-14 and they would draw out 6 numbers. So number 4, 5, 9, 11, 13, 14 would get into the tournament.
     
    #49
  50. usta10sfan

    usta10sfan New User

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    ITF events not going away

    The USA actually has 17 ITF Junior Circuit events if you count the US Open Juniors. The ITF events are not even a part of the Junior Competition proposal. The USA is the only country in the world with 2 ITF Grade A Junior Circuit tournaments (USOJ & Orange Bowl). There are plenty of opportunities to compete.
     
    #50

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