Rod Laver was an insane monster!

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by Mick3391, Feb 8, 2013.

  1. Sid_Vicious

    Sid_Vicious G.O.A.T.

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    That was measured at 116 mph on the TV coverage.
     
    #51
  2. Anaconda

    Anaconda Hall of Fame

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    There was a poster called Datacipher a long time ago. Couldn't be told anything. According to him, he was right and everyone else was wrong - he used to hang on former player discussion. He tried convincing a few posters that Rosewall was capable of 'broaching' 80 mph slices. Needless to say very few people took him seriously until his banning.





    By the way, off topic, does Drakulie still post here?
     
    #52
  3. Sid_Vicious

    Sid_Vicious G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, but not that often in this section.

    Lol, its funny what happened to Datacipher. He had another account which he used to agree with himself and bash his sworn enemies on the forum with.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2013
    #53
  4. Mick3391

    Mick3391 Professional

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    Thanks man, you seem very charming:)
     
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  5. BeHappy

    BeHappy Hall of Fame

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    Hawkeye measures the speed of the ball as it leaves the racquet for the first two feet.

    Djoker puts so much spin on the ball that it takes a big curved path and takes a far longer route to get there than a flat shot that goes completely straight. I would be very surprised if Djoker's ball actually moved faster than Sampras's in real terms. The biggest flat shot will always move faster on average and slow down less than a curved spinny topspin shot.

    I remember John Yandell said a "120mph" serve has lost half it's speed by the time it lands in the box. Do you see what I mean now?
     
    #55
  6. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    Lew Hoad clips are more impressive IMO...
     
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  7. Sid_Vicious

    Sid_Vicious G.O.A.T.

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    Djokovic swung through that ball with all his might. He hit the ball at 116 mph and it was much bigger than Sampras's forehand because he loaded up more and smashed the living hell out of it. That whole topspin theory is lame. Djokovic had no intention of getting topspin on that shot. Djokovic crushed the ball without any thought and intended for it to be a hit/miss shot.


    I'm not saying that saying anything about average speed. I believe Sampras did hit his forehand harder than Djokovic on average, but Djokovic clearly topped Sampras in the pace department on that particular forehand...and he did it by a significant margin.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2013
    #57
  8. BeHappy

    BeHappy Hall of Fame

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    I don't agree but unless the speed for both vids are calculated in the same way we can only agree to disagree.
     
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  9. Anaconda

    Anaconda Hall of Fame

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    Seriously?
     
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  10. Sid_Vicious

    Sid_Vicious G.O.A.T.

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    I don't see how this debatable. Sampras's forehand in the video you posted was a way more impressive shot than Djokovic's...in terms of difficulty. Sampras was on the move and had to arm the forehand and still hit the ball with destructive speed. In contrast, Djokovic got himself a loppy sitter that he could tee off of. Djokovic had time to load up, take his racquet back, tilt his torso, and then explode into the shot with his entire body. Therefore, he got much more mphs than Sampras did on the forehand.

    Sampras could probably match Djokovic's mphs if he had been given an easy ball to crush with plenty of time.

    Sampras's shot reminds me of this shot by Federer. Just like Sampras' shot, Federer's shot had great pace and was unexpected. Neither Nadal or Kafelnikov saw those shots coming

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=aSmDCHLJM70#t=113s
     
    #60
  11. BeHappy

    BeHappy Hall of Fame

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    But to my eye it doesn't look faster.

    And for my part I'll say that since 2011 Djoker has proven himself to be in Sampras's league as a player and just like with you there is no bias on my part, it simply genuinely looks faster to me, just as Djoker's genuinely looks faster to you.
     
    #61
  12. TheFifthSet

    TheFifthSet Hall of Fame

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    He was 5'8-5'9, about the same as Ferrer, who is currently number 4 in the world.
     
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  13. Sid_Vicious

    Sid_Vicious G.O.A.T.

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    Fair enough, man.

    :)
     
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  14. TheFifthSet

    TheFifthSet Hall of Fame

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    You can pretty much follow the path of the ball with your eyes, it couldnt have been more than 95 mph. I've seen bigger FH's from Sampras alone, much less in general.
     
    #64
  15. BeHappy

    BeHappy Hall of Fame

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    I think it's Andres the Argentinean poster who knows how to track speeds. Next time I see him posting I'll ask him and find out one way or another.
     
    #65
  16. Sid_Vicious

    Sid_Vicious G.O.A.T.

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    There are plenty of softwares for that. Especially for PC. I'm sure there is a learning curve though
     
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  17. TheFifthSet

    TheFifthSet Hall of Fame

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    #67
  18. BeHappy

    BeHappy Hall of Fame

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    Well those two are definitely faster than the one I posted haha.

    I think Safin's backhand may have been the biggest average mph shot of all. Becker and Flipper were up there too.

    I suppose it makes sense looking at your two clips, that the biggest shots ever would be returns of serve.
     
    #68
  19. TheFifthSet

    TheFifthSet Hall of Fame

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    yeah Safins backhand was a monster. i think soderlings is also up there in terms of average mph (not quality though, of course).


    yup, what i find stunning about blakes return is that it was a fluffy serve with almost no pace, and his backswing was very short yet he absolutely pummeled the ball.
     
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  20. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Since we're writing about Laver, John Newcombe wrote a few years ago that the greatest backhand return he had ever seen was the return Laver hit against Stan Smith in the 1973 Davis Cup doubles. Here's what Newcombe wrote in his excellent book "Newk." As we walked on to the court--to the surprise of the Yanks, who'd been expecting Rosewall and me-I said to him "Rocket, when I play against you, I hate it when you move in and really rip your backhand, and much prefer it when you just do your little chips. Why not rip your backhand today? And it always makes me nervous serving to you because your backhand return is so strong. So when the Yanks serve to you today, please step in and hit the s&*t out of the ball."

    Rod did his best to please me. On the first point of the match Stan served to me and I returned to win the point, 0-15. Just before Rod faced Stan's serve I said to him: "Now's the time. Belt this one right back as hard as you can." Rod who had the best poker face in tennis, said nothing. Stan served to Rod's backhand, and the instant the ball left his racquet, Rod leaped forward four paces and performed the best backhand return I've ever seen. Suddenly the ball was traveling at the Americans at warp speed--I couldn't see a ball, just a blur. It was past Erik van Dillen's nose before he even moved his racquet. The score was 0-30 to us against their team.


    I have a vague memory of that return but I do remember that if you blinked you missed it. It was so fast. Laver dominated that match as they crushed the United States team.

    Laver had some weird shots that you would not expect. He often liked to lob people and when they went to hit the overhead he moved in to volley the overhead away. Apparently he did it somewhat often. I doubt if he was successful 50% of the time or was close but he did have the reflexes to pull it off on occasion.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2013
    #70
  21. Anaconda

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    What was great about Marat's backhand was the fact that he didn't need to expand any energy to blast winners from the BH (or FH either), definitely the most effortless and efficient BH I've seen in terms of power, accuracy and unreadability.
     
    #71
  22. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Yes it was a fantastic backhand. I recorded the Safin/Federer Australian semi from years ago and I mistakenly erased it.
     
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  23. Sid_Vicious

    Sid_Vicious G.O.A.T.

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    Awesome thing about Safin's backhand was just the technical skill he had on that side. I remember Safin would occasionally hit great backhand returns off of great body serves. His whole body would be jammed, but he would manage to use the little bit of space to flawlessly hit a backhand with an extra compact stroke.

    Idk if you know what Im talking about, Im not good at describing tennis in words, but it was something extraordinary. :)
     
    #73
  24. Sid_Vicious

    Sid_Vicious G.O.A.T.

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    You can download it from multiple internet sites or better yet, I guarantee you find at least a dozen youtube users who have uploaded the entire match.
     
    #74
  25. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I have had the privilege to see him live and it is the most sensational tennis show that one can imagine.

    The guy had ALL the shots and ALL the spins.he moved at uncredible speed and had an uncanny sense of anticipation.Much like the best JMac.

    He was a tremendous competitor.Very hard with himself, never gave an excuse and never let anything be an excuse.always gave his best, except in specific circumstances.When they say Connors always returned your money with interest, Laver used to do it since day one.

    One thing that I have never seen in any other player is how bold he was trying umpossible shots in the most difficult moments.When he was against the ropes, he was amazing.

    At 36 he beat Borg at the WCT tour and lost to him a year later in the Dallas finals, in a match Borg described as the best he ever took part in.That alone explains the size of this unparalel champion.
     
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  26. Anaconda

    Anaconda Hall of Fame

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    Yes, I understand don't worry. His movement & flexibility were the best 've seen from any tall player and his 'improv' at times left me scratching my head at times. He hit's his BH in so many different ways too. I was watching his match with Agassi at the AO 2004 today and he hit so many unsuspecting winners (not even at great pace of the BH wing) just by looking in a defensive position yet beating his opponent with surprise and depth.
     
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  27. President

    President Legend

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    [​IMG]

    Safin and Monfils are the same height and Monfils is a MUCH better mover and more flexible.
     
    #77
  28. Anaconda

    Anaconda Hall of Fame

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    Ignorance at it's finest.


    Do people not count for factors such as coordination and efficiency? Monfils is faster than Safin a little bit. Safin's coordination, balance and court positioning far exceed Monfils. Monfils spends half his time on the floor or near the stands trying to defend till the death; It's one of the reasons he gets injury problems. monfils is more athletic, that's about it.


    I'm talking stroke production too. Safin could take up a defensive postion, be completely compact and still out right hit winners. Monfils is good for highlight reels and hits one winner a match.




    Oh wait, I forgot. This is tennis warehouse. Where the fastest players are dubbed the best movers and factors such as balance, weight distribution, coordination and court positioning are completely ignored.
     
    #78
  29. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    When he would go on one of his hot streaks I would think to myself that tennis can't be that easy for him. He seemed to be constantly hitting the lines.
     
    #79
  30. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Actually another major thing that Laver had was a huge left arm and wrist which enabled him to flick the ball back like he was playing table tennis. Laver was probably for tennis, the strongest man in the game. It was as big as the World Heavyweight Champion.

    http://partners.nytimes.com/library/sports/backtalk/082600anderson090168.html

    Ellsworth Vines wrote that Laver and Guillermo Vilas were one of the few who could handle kick serves above their shoulders because of the great strength in their wrists.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2013
    #80
  31. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Yes, he was a devastating force, feeding up on inspiration, winning rage and a sense of risk that I have seen very rarely.His sense of risk was enormous but I think it was some sort of percentage tennis for him to play.
     
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  32. akind

    akind Banned

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    Rocket loves tennis and he grew up playing tennis every single day in Rockhampton, thus you can understand how good he really was. He was that addicted to tennis and always strived to perfect his game. Nobody forced him to play tennis and he played from his heart, thus he left school at such a young age just to pursue his tennis dream.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2013
    #82
  33. corners

    corners Legend

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    Are you sure Kohlschreiber isn't 5'7" and laver 5'10"?
     
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  34. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    corners, Empire State Building is even better than Laver because it's a bit higher!
     
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  35. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    The game has changed dramatically since the sixties. The very best players from the 90s up to now are 6' and above. Talent/skillful and the right height are essential. You can't assumed Laver wouldn't suffer if he's playing modern tennis. There's no evidence. Until there's one undersized player that proved all of us wrong, then you have an argument.
     
    #85
  36. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    It doesn't matter. He probably think Chang's height had nothing to with him getting over power by the bigger player(eg Sampras), having no big serve and less power from both wings.
     
    #86
  37. urban

    urban Hall of Fame

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    Nice monster. Some of the best descriptions of Laver i read, was from Julius Heldman. I try to find it somewhere. Laver did take indeed risks with his game, and in his youth did spray many balls, hitting the fence many times. His backhand was likened to "spraying rice on a wedding". When he later controlled his game, he combined power and spin in a way, that is - so i feel - still unsurpassed. McEnroe at his peak (with the bigger racket) had something of it in regard of spin and net game, but never had the power from the baseline. Laver was very fast and could hit winners on the dead run. Sampras could hit them on the run with his forehand, Laver could do this from both sides. Laver had the big and strong wrist to flick winners from the outstretched arm and body.
    And he could make tactical changes and adjustments, when things were no going well. Arthur Ashe used to speak of 'zoning'. When Laver got into the zone, he began to hit harder and harder, finding the lines and the impossible angles. Then he stepped in and hit the hardest serves or overheads back for winners like nothing.
     
    #87
  38. KineticChain

    KineticChain Professional

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    ITT geezers reminisce and over exaggerate the ability level of their favorite player from when they were growing up.
     
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  39. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    that's funny because there is one such guy, a few years ago, who at his peak used to play like that ; still does at times ; is still playing on the tour - power and spin, flick winners , very fast , hitting impossible angles ..yes, his name is federer

    and sampras running FH , while brilliant, is over-rated, nadal IMHO is clearly better ....
     
    #89
  40. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    Blasphemer!

    Don't you ever again dare to compare his all-court greatness Mr. Laver to a moderately talented defensive baseliner like Fed (aided by modern equipment and weak opposition).
     
    #90
  41. urban

    urban Hall of Fame

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    Are here some fanboys jealous?
     
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  42. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    I didn't see anyone in this thread criticize Federer but it does seem that praise for Laver annoys some people. I think it's reasonable to praise both without people being annoyed, at least I thought so.
     
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  43. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, at his peak or in his prime he could do it all.

    This is the advantage of the "all-court player": they can go anywhere to hit a winner, or just be patient.
     
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  44. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    Oh lighten up historians, it was just a small dig.

    Neither Abmk nor I have an issue with people praising Laver, heck both of us hold Laver in much, much higher regard than you do for Fed.

    P.S. Roddick has a bigger forearm than Laver but atleast you didn't claim Laver's forearm is larger than a grown man's leg this time around which is a plus I guess.
     
    #94
  45. Nathaniel_Near

    Nathaniel_Near Talk Tennis Guru

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    Relax folks, ...
    Very much the impression I get as well.
     
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  46. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Well that's interesting Nathaniel because I enjoy watching Federer, especially when he plays Djokovic, Nadal and Murray. Can't say I enjoy watching Federer against Roddick because it's too one sided.

    What I think you misinterpret is that I often defend Laver when some write he's too short etc.

    You should tell that to my wife when I wake up at 3 am to watch Federer. Someday I probably will be defending Federer from attacks when the current fans of the World Champion in 2033 says Federer would stink today.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2013
    #96
  47. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Saying Fed fanbase is jealous of Laver is like saying M. Joran fanbase is jealous of Kobe Bryant.
     
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  48. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    eh, what ? I'm just having fun @ the biased views over here .... its funny how you after you mention combo of pace and spin, you switch over to a comparison with jmac (off to a tangent with spin & net play ) ; instead of federer who's the closest possible comparison in that regard ...

    if you had not made that comparison with jmac, I wouldn't have commented ...

    again, it has nothing whatsoever to do with being annoyed at the praise of laver .......rather its the blatant disregard of federer ...did you even notice that I didn't say anything against laver in that post ?
     
    #98
  49. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    LOL see in which section the thread ended up
     
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  50. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    yep ...

    LOL ! :)
     

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