Roger : best ever, The four of us? That’s a really difficult call.

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by tennissportsrog, Sep 2, 2012.

  1. tennissportsrog

    tennissportsrog Rookie

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    thanks comment.
     
    #51
  2. tennissportsrog

    tennissportsrog Rookie

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    Nadal is sh*t in fast court.

    no?
     
    #52
  3. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    yeah, the thing here is even against a player playing that well, if you can hold serve, you might be able to capitalize on a slight drop of level or come up with a bit of inspirational play to break or take it in a breaker ....

    for example, take the second set of federer-murray wimbledon final in 2012 ...... murray was playing better than federer there ....but federer managed to hold his serve and came up with an inspirational game out of nowhere to break murray and seal the set ....

    as far as nadal-rosol match goes, well, no one would have it easy vs the rosol who showed up in the 5th set, but I think the other superior grass court players could've easily taken 3 sets out of the first 4 ....

    I get your point that no one is really unstoppable in the absolute sense, just that it is possible to discuss relatively .....
     
    #53
  4. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    delpo win the USO in 2009 ......you fail there ..... they'd have won more slams if not for the era being strong :)

    actually fact is the mid-60s to the early 70s was the worst era ever. ..... :twisted:

    and finally, the level of delpo in RG 2009 SF was far better than that of rosewall in RG 1969 final , even though rosewall is the better CC player by far ....

    deal with it !
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2013
    #54
  5. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Most important pro tournaments had a best-of-five sets final.
    PSW (is that the Pacific South West?) as in post-open era?
    Best-of-three does not show STAMINA, which should be tested in a major event.
     
    #55
  6. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Let´s see...wasn´t Laver second slam in the middle to late 60´s? oh¡¡ I see...
     
    #56
  7. tennissportsrog

    tennissportsrog Rookie

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    Nadal "Sampras era was not true tennis. no?."
     
    #57
  8. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Current foursome is good but not better tham Sampras,Agassi,Becker and Edberg/Courier
    Of course the greatest ever is Laver/Rosewall/Hoad/Gonzales followed by Borg/Mc Enroe/Connors/Lendl
     
    #58
  9. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    Federer > Sampras

    Nadal > Agassi

    Djokovic > Becker
     
    #59
  10. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    In which world can be imagined Becker inferior to Djokovic?
     
    #60
  11. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    Were you asleep for 2011?
     
    #61
  12. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    What is the right number of elite players to define tough or weak era?
    If it is 4, then 1981 or 1991
    If it is 7 then 1958 and 1971
    If it is 10 then 1985 and 1995
    Of course 1971 and 1981 can be mentioned for the best top 15 ever

    Weakest eras are 20's, 40' s and amateur 60's and of course 2003-2007
    The 30's would be in the middle
     
    #62
  13. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    2003-2007 wasn't that bad, only 2006 was particularly weak.

    None of what you posted above actually amounts to Becker being a superior player to Djokovic anyway.
     
    #63
  14. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    here's a clue , its called world of reality ...

    djoker > becker on slow HC
    djoker > becker on fast HC outdoors
    djoker > becker on clay

    becker > djoker on grass
    becker > djoker indoors
     
    #64
  15. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Only Federer and Nadal
    2008-2012 is better, more or less like 1930's
     
    #65
  16. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    There were much less HC tourneys in Becker and heavier competition
     
    #66
  17. ARFED

    ARFED Semi-Pro

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    Come on man, stop the trolling please. I know that it is pointless to discuss with you but let`s take a quick look at the field of the 1967 pros, which was Laver`s highest level ever according to most experts (by the way, i rank Rod number 2 all time, perhaps even number 1, he is too close with Fed up there imo).
    A field composed of peak Laver, although still great, past his prime Rosewall, ''wheelchair" version of Hoad, senior tour version of Gonzalez, Gimeno (not much of a threath outside clay), Stolle (a second stringer to Emerson in the amateur ranks), and then a list of legends like Buchholz, Ralston, McKay, Davidson, Mills, Barthes, etc. Yeah i see it clearly, that field is just mind boggling.
    Lets look at 2004 ''joke'' field: prime Federer, prime Hewitt, prime Roddick, prime Safin, prime Nalbandian, old Agassi, Henman, Coria, Gaudio, Moya, Ferrero, Grosjean, Johansson, etc.
    Well now lets see the ''club level'' field of 2007: prime Federer, clay court beast Nadal, young Djokovic, peak Nalbandian, Davydenko, Roddick, Blake, Gonzalez, Ferrer, etc.

    Yes, yo do have a point. Weak eras exist after all....
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2013
    #67
  18. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Deep down kiki knows the 60s were very weak and he's just trolling. With split fields and very few athletes competing, there's no comparison to the new millenium. Laver, Agassi, Lendl....all have conceded that the depth/competition is higher than their respective era.
     
    #68
  19. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    Peak Roddick, Saffin, Hewitt, Old Agassi etc...are better players than anyone outside the top 4 today. Even better than anyone outside Federer and Nadal from 08-10 IMO.

    Nadal was injured in 09, Djokovic also declined from his 07 and 08 standards in 09/10...particularly in 10. Federer played badly for most of the year in 2010 as well.

    So yeah only 2011 to 2012 have been particularly strong.
     
    #69
  20. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I am not trolling I give am opinion but I forgot many posters don' t know what a democracy us
    Never had the 60 as a top era, read my post
    But from 1968 or 1969 it was extremely tough and look at the records of the top 10 or 15 compared to pale and uncompetitive 2002-2007
    You know that I have a very strong case here
     
    #70
  21. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I always meant at the top 10-20 which is what defines tough, medium or weak
    At the bottom level, yes, there are many more players now and it looks like end if 70-beginning 80 if we talk about good and massive journeymen
     
    #71
  22. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Hewitt could compare to Murray, Rodduck to Potro and Safin to Djokovic so it looks more oe less sumilar
     
    #72
  23. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    The three best eras are late 50 - pros and top ams joint-, early 70 and early to middle 80
    Nothing can even dream of being close in terms of toughness, depth of great champions, variety of styles, class,beauty and passion
     
    #73
  24. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Onlt Federer and in a few matches Safin had the raw talent to knock at the door and ask those era players let them play with them
     
    #74
  25. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Only Federer and in a few matches Safin had the raw talent to knock at the door and ask those era players let them play with them
     
    #75
  26. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    becker's competition was a bit better. That's about it.

    Even in the most important HC tourney's , AO & USO, becker's performance is significantly inferior to that of djokovic.

    the below is not gonna change & is reality . You know it.

    djoker > becker on slow HC
    djoker > becker on fast HC outdoors
    djoker > becker on clay

    becker > djoker on grass
    becker > djoker indoors
     
    #76
  27. Flash O'Groove

    Flash O'Groove Hall of Fame

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    In a democracy a man has only one voice though ;-)
     
    #77
  28. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    hewitt would a nightmare for SnVers when dialed in. roddick with his serve & FH would be a threat in any era ..

    nalbandian was highly talented as well and would've done well in any era , like mecir, rios.

    old agassi was also playing well & would've done so in any other era as well ...
     
    #78
  29. ARFED

    ARFED Semi-Pro

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    So the field at the top in 1980 composed of prime Borg, past his prime Connors, youngs Mac and Lendl would wipe the floor with prime Fed, prime Hewitt, prime Roddick and prime Safin. Or would blow off the court prime Djokovic, prime Nadal, past his prime Fed and prime Murray. Nice conclusion there...

    Nostalgia must be torturing you. Perhaps in 30 years from now i will be the one schooling the youngsters about weak and strong eras, or educating someone on the super-duper-human abilities of Tipsarevic.:twisted:
     
    #79
  30. Flash O'Groove

    Flash O'Groove Hall of Fame

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    Tipsarevic nearly beated top players on several occasions. You shouldn't look down on him. By the way, I don't think that Tisparevic is a testimony to the depths of the field.
     
    #80
  31. ARFED

    ARFED Semi-Pro

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    I was just being sarcastic about the way Kiki overhypes past era players (especially average players). I dont buy weak or strong eras crap. Since open era began every era produced 2, 3 or 4 fantastic players, Newcombe-Nastase-Smith, Borg-Vilas-Connors, Mac-Lendl, Wilander-Edberg-Becker, Agassi-Sampras-Courier, Fed-Safin-Hewitt, Nadal-Djokovic-Murray.
     
    #81
  32. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    ARFED, Federer played several years with no Murray and Djokovic and only young Nadal.

    Considering that is not crap!!!
     
    #82
  33. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    Nadal was an early bloomer, he was always a very good player on all surfaces. The likes of Hewitt, Roddick, Safin, Nalbandian, Davydenko etc...are really underrated. They'd certainly provide challenges to the current Big 4.
     
    #83
  34. Flash O'Groove

    Flash O'Groove Hall of Fame

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    I have written billion of time that past-prime Roddick has a positive H2H against prime Djokovic, that Davy has a positive H2H against Nadal, that Nalbandian bested consecutively prime Djokovic, Nadal and Fed, but Old Bobby never answered...
     
    #84
  35. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    Yep, and Federer dominated those guys to a ridiculous extent during his peak years. I don't see how it's a sign of a weak era if a guy catches fire one tournament and races to the final ala, Gonzalez. Wawrinka very nearly took out peak Djokovic on his best surface, only a bad line call stopped him serving for the match.
     
    #85
  36. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    There is only one hard
    Becker has won at this point more majors including indoor majors and you know it
     
    #86
  37. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Jajaja good try, keep talking to yourself that it is possible to even dare placing Safin, Murray or Hewitt at Lendl's, Mac or Connors level
    You know, it is the same difference like in music:
    While I had Who,Zepp and Queen among a bunch of legends you have Lady Gaga,Bieber and Rhinana
    Maybe you all will start understanding but I doubt
    When one eats junk every day it is rare will appreciate caviar
     
    #87
  38. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    When golden tennis I could watch a5 hrs match and at the end I wanted more
    Now, after 45 minutes I need a water splash to wake me up
    :)
     
    #88
  39. Flash O'Groove

    Flash O'Groove Hall of Fame

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    Here the Kodes of the 70's: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mo40aTe_3JM

    Enjoy the analogy.
     
    #89
  40. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    indoor tourneys are not majors. Djokovic is better than becker @ 3 of the slams - AO, FO & USO.

    now indoor tourneys were more important during becker's time ....that's a factor to be considered for sure

    but djokovic has plenty more weeks @ #1 and 2 year end #1s ....becker never ever came close to having an year like djokovic did in 2011.

    Achievements wise, they're at a similar level now. ..you could have arguments for both.

    But djokovic will in all likelihood surpass becker easily soon in the future.
     
    #90
  41. ark_28

    ark_28 Hall of Fame

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    Greatest has to be Sampras or Federer Laver was great but 3 of the slams then were played on grass and there were some old farts sending down pies with no video analysis like today for opponents to get after his weakness.
     
    #91
  42. ARFED

    ARFED Semi-Pro

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    Well by that logic you have AIDS, cold war (which was anything but cold), racial segregation, militar dictatorships, etc. Such a golden age indeed.
    Look anytime has highs and lows, and as far as i know i can listen to those bands too, and the classical geniuses of previous centuries (much more enjoyable than your ''golden era" i must say).

    Regarding tennis, as an argentinian, i would recommend you to watch Nalbandian toying with Nadal at Paris Indoors 2007. If you find that brand of tennis to be boring then you have no clue whatsoever
     
    #92
  43. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    nalbandian is Ok.Pecci has a better record at majors, though.
     
    #93
  44. ARFED

    ARFED Semi-Pro

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    Then i must say that your darling played most of his prime years (he wasn`t by any means number 1 before 1961) against senior tour versions of Gonzalez, Segura, Sedgman, Trabert and played against a handicapped Hoad. When Laver matured, little Kenny took his rightful place as a second stringer. Fact is that even for pre open era standards, the early 60`s had some of the weakest competition.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2013
    #94
  45. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    ESPN have teamed up to determine who's the greatest athlete of all time. They chose Federer to represent tennis. Since ESPN is biased toward American athletes, I'm sure they would rather have Sampras or JMac and not Federer(non-American). However, they know Federer is the greatest tennis player of all time so they don't want to be ridiculed by the media/fans had they not chose Federer.
     
    #95
  46. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    That doesn't explain why split fields isn't weak, because it is. You can split the field into 10 separate tours, and each tour still have top 10-20 players(duh). A small pool results in fewer talented players. Capiche ?
     
    #96
  47. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    majors depend on era.WCt/masters had slam status when Becker played.
     
    #97
  48. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Yes, they were country club players:neutral:
     
    #98
  49. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Hewitt & Murray was fantastic? Ashe was better than Smith.
     
    #99
  50. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Cold war was cool and the greatest ever rivalry were at the OG with USA against USSR.I miss it.

    I know your country suffered a lot in the 70´s and early 80´s but it does not take away all the great joy and creativity that was there around the world.
     

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