Roger : best ever, The four of us? That’s a really difficult call.

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by tennissportsrog, Sep 2, 2012.

  1. Flash O'Groove

    Flash O'Groove Hall of Fame

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    That was fun, but you are though with pc1. It does look like a post pc1 could wrote, but what's the problem? His view are argued enough no?

    You are also to kind with BobbyOne. The good sir never care to write such a long explanation, especially if he answer to somenone who wrote 10 pages of arguments.

    Now, who could write this?

    "The owls are not what they seems?"
     
  2. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    That was legen-wait-for-it-dary !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :)
     
  3. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    I think krosero just mentioned as one of the methodologies that could be used.

    In 2012, federer also lost to ~33 year old haas in the halle final and to isner in the davis Cup

    IMO, one should never used "only" one parameter to evaluate this.

    There are multiple things at play - one is of course the win loss records ; if you've watched the season, your impression ; another is performance at big events & smaller events , surface-wise split up , reading up some of the descriptions of players rise/fall or specific matches , stats in some of the matches etc etc ...
     
  4. Flash O'Groove

    Flash O'Groove Hall of Fame

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    I agree with you on everything. I still find it difficult to identify Nadal's peak years, because his domination of the clay season is a constant and because his achievement off clay have been varied. He failed in slams in 2005-2007, but he had success elsewhere - he won 4 of his 5 hard court master 1000 in 2005-2007. After that he had success in slam, but few elsewhere. While he reached the final of all slams on 2011, he didn't won a HC titles since 2010.
     
  5. qindarka

    qindarka Rookie

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    He isn't being tough on pc1 at all. He likes to appear objective but is really just as biased as any of the others and the pretense makes it more annoying.

    Should have added the part where BobbyOne, despite touting his experience and age, goes off crying when people disagree with him.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2013
  6. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    Somebody who has seen a damn, fine TV show. Damn fine I say.
     
  7. Flash O'Groove

    Flash O'Groove Hall of Fame

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    You deserve a donut.
     
  8. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    Would rather have some cherry pie and coffee. :)
     
  9. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    The Giant.

    How do you like your coffee?
     
  10. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    I know you're just trying to have fun but I need to make it clear for the record that I do not see my exchanges with PC1, BobbyOne and Kiki as a waste of time and I have had worthwhile exchanges with them before. Also I know for a fact that they read what I write with interest even when they disagree -- or even when they don't reply.

    What I'm trying to do, for anyone who's interested, is have some substantive debate not just about the players but about methods -- particularly methods of studying matches and analyzing stats. I've had worthwhile exchanges about these things particularly with PC1 and that's simply where my interest is.

    I know it's inevitable and even necessary that we talk about each other but so many threads deteriorate when we get caught up doing that.
     
  11. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    Actually, unlike Coop, lots of sugar in my coffee
     
  12. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    pc1, Stay as you are: a gentleman.
     
  13. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Haas is 35 and still quite good...
     
  14. Flash O'Groove

    Flash O'Groove Hall of Fame

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    Regarding methods, how do you identify Nadal peaking years? The common idea, based on his slam result only, is that he peaked in 2008. I don't know if there is a common idea for when his peak stopped (2011, 2012, still going?). This is based on his slam result only. What do you think? Can you give me an analysis like you did for Fed? (please:()
     
  15. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki, Yes, now both TT forums are seemingly overtaken by the Federer fanatics.Where is the expertise of the posters left?
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2013
  16. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Spoilt kids, that is it
    They want to have fun which I understand since they live in dull ball bashing baseline era
     
  17. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki, I must give you a compliment: You have a huge amount of knowledge about tennis (history), music, politics, soccer and probably some other fields.
     
  18. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    World Beater, Rosewall never faced No.345 but you can be sure that he would not have lost a set to him, you Rosewall hater (see your former post).
     
  19. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    I have heard that Agassi did rather well till 35...
     
  20. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    abmk, Thanks for this logical argument.
     
  21. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    krosero, Nadal and Djokovic are significantly younger than Federer and were not in their prime when they faced Hewitt and so on.

    Federer beat a certain Baghdatis in a major final...
     
  22. Flash O'Groove

    Flash O'Groove Hall of Fame

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    Bobby, can you answer to one of my previous post where I wrote that tennis players hit their peak at 24-25 and begin their decline as soon as 26? I proposed a link to a very interesting work made by Falstaff78. You may be much more convincing if you could answer to it that by throwing some individual case to show a general point ("I have heard that Federer did win Wimbledon past his prime....").
     
  23. qindarka

    qindarka Rookie

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    So you want this place to be your own personal playground with everyone agreeing with you?
     
  24. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    Oh I'm sure you had (and will have in the future) worthwhile exchanges with said posters about various different past tennis greats and/or different methods of analyzing matches but I do not believe that you had or ever will have worthwhile exchanges with them when the topic is about (or includes him like this thread) Federer, some semblance of open mindedness is required for that and there is none when it comes to that particular player.

    It's akin to trying to explain to TMF (and various other posters who are dead set in their opinion that tennis always evolves) that there are reasons why Laver and Rosewall could do very well (even dominate) in modern game or and/or that game being more global doesn't automatically mean top players that emerge are better, it's just not gonna register, at all.

    So yes while I was half-joking, I stand by what I said regarding those posts of yours I guoted.
     
  25. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    Both Davydenko and Roddick beat Nadal in his best career years.
     
  26. qindarka

    qindarka Rookie

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    He wasn't in his prime then. Davy beat Nadal at Miami 08 and Nadal only entered his prime/peak in the clay season. Same goes for 2010, Roddick won at Miami when Nadal was still recovering from his injury in 2009. Nadal only re-entered his prime/peak in the clay season again.

    Not entirely dismissing their wins but if you are not a Fed fanatic, you can easily why these wins are not legitimate wins against prime/peak Nadal.
     
  27. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    krosero, Thanks for your patience towards me. Your fellow Federer fans would have insulted me already at that point.

    I regret that you also are a Federer worshipper.

    All the great players of the past have been very strong at an advanced age with the only exceptions of Borg (even though he might have succeeded longer) and McEnroe who got an illness. And Sampras who also is overrated.

    Federer declined at age 26? I can't believe. That's an age when most greats started to dominate significantly. And these players of the past did play more than Federer ever did (at least the old pros).

    A main criterion for greatness is longevity.

    I never refused to say that Federer is an excellent player. I only state he is not a GOAT candidate (weak era, weaknesses).
     
  28. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    krosero, My logic regarding peak and not peak Murray is okay. I don't understand your doubt here. Murray improved ONLY A LITTLE between these matches. Three, four better shots in a whole match of psychological drama can decide. You have conceded that Murray would have beaten Federer at the Olmpics in any case (omitting exhaustion).

    I agree that it's good to watch the players. Unfortunately I missed the W. final (no broadcasting here).
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2013
  29. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    Bobby wtf is wrong with u. Federer did not lose that match, he won the next two sets and dropped 2 games total in the 2nd and 3rd set
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2013
  30. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Flash, You should adapt your thesis with abmk's. He says that 2007 was a year or decline while you say it was a peak year. And you contradict yourself with the Federer peak years:" 2007,2008 decline"!, and "2011 peak year?".

    ???
     
  31. Flash O'Groove

    Flash O'Groove Hall of Fame

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    Quote of the year.
     
  32. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    You keep talking crap like that (in this case a fabricated lie) and you wonder why we gang up on you.
     
  33. Flash O'Groove

    Flash O'Groove Hall of Fame

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    BobbyOne. I read again my post and I don't think that I wrote that 2007 was a peak year for Federer. I contradicted my self voluntary, because there is something to interesting to thing about here. I explained that the method to define 2007-2008 as the first decline years - looking at his loss against lower ranked players - doesn't work well for 2011, because he had very few of them. I would like to listen to Krosero on that matter, as he is one person who seek theory.
     
  34. World Beater

    World Beater Hall of Fame

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    I'm sorry that facts hurt you so much.

    Rosewall was really an amazing player. I admired his slice very much, and appreciated your contributions to the thread that compared his career with Lavers.

    However, even you would agree that it is such a pity that a great player like Rosewall could never win the biggest tournament in the world.

    There was no such #345 in rosewalls time because the pool of competition was much smaller. The fact that #2 in the world can be challenged in one set shows that you cannot discount such players. Such players are not 'byes' as they were in rosewalls time. They are men like you and I, who instead of typing on keyboards use their time to train, and play a sport that they love
    at a world class level.

    Show some respect to these athletes who sweat day-in day out to make a living, get in shape and fight on a daily basis to sustain their livelyhood.

    Could you say that you are #128 in your profession?
     
  35. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    but of course, clueless ..........ever heard of youtube, DVDs ? explain how the hell you don't get broadcasting of the biggest match in tennis , don't even try to catch up any time later and yet pretend to be some kind of tennis expert ???????????

    commenting on matches without actually watching and contradicting people who've actually watched the match ( some multiple times, that includes me btw ) .......

    you realise you are making a laughing stock of yourself ?
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2013
  36. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    in which la la world are you in ........

    here, go through this thread and see if that strikes a little bit of sense into your head

    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=453446&highlight=falstaff

    here are pictures that might help you , even if only a tiny bit ...

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2013
  37. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    get this , krosero was talking about matches when nadal/djokovic were in their primes ........
     
  38. Carsomyr

    Carsomyr Hall of Fame

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    Which is the main reason why krosero is one of the few to take you seriously. Zagor and other Federer fans who post here (such as myself) see no problem in posters ranking Laver, Gonzales, Sampras, Rosewall, etc. above Federer. We may disagree, but we certainly understand and respect the logic that is logic in those rankings. Even posters who are Federer haters recognize his high place in the echelon of tennis, such as NadalAgassi and LimpinHitter.

    To deny him a place in these discussions is not just asinine: it's childish. Grow up.

    To be fair, there are posters who outright dismiss players from past generations in order to honor Federer, Nadal, Djokovic, or whoever. They are actually children, though.
     
  39. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    yes, he did ...... but he wasted several years of his prime , he was ranked as low as #141 when 27 years of age in 1997 ... made up for it a bit later on in his career .........his was an atypical career trajectory ....

    but no one says agassi was at his peak @ 35 years of age ......
     
  40. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    Federer didn't lose. So the GOAT can't have an underwhelming performance? He won the next two sets 0-2 anyway. Nevermind when he demolishes great players in grand slam finals handing out two bagels but at 31 he can't have a poor showing for a set against the world 128.

    You'll use anything to try and discredit Federer. You're pathetic. Probably cause the whole world rates him much higher than Rosewall.
     
  41. NadalDramaQueen

    NadalDramaQueen Hall of Fame

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    Relax, Bobby. Your true colors are starting to show through again. :)

    I checked the match and Federer was still the winner, learn history!

    Edit: I removed my quote since your post got deleted.

    How do you expect anyone to take you seriously?
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2013
  42. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Flash, I don't need to write long explanations. Truth is often rather simple and short...
     
  43. Carsomyr

    Carsomyr Hall of Fame

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    In 1975, a year in which Rosewall was ranked #2 (like Federer), he lost a set against this guy, whose highest ranking was 178.
     
  44. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    qindarka, I don't cry when people disagree with me. I just am disappointed by wrong logic and constant insulting me.
     
  45. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    What did Bobby do? Did he insults someone?
     
  46. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    Then how can you live with yourself?
     
  47. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    krosero, I'm very grateful for this clarification. Like pc1 you are a true Sir. I wished that all other posters (including myself) would discuss on that level of communication.
     
  48. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    touche ! :)
     
  49. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    That's it for me,I can't rank Rosewall high after such a performance
     
  50. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Flash, I just can repeat: Most of the all-time greats peaked from 25 to 29 (or 31). I don't believe that actuall tennis is more exhausting than that of Gonzalez, Rosewall and Laver was. The latter had a more tiring schedule than Federer, Nadal and Djokovic. The older players played more matches plus the played even doubles.
     

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