Roger's inside out forehand against Murray

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by peRFection, Mar 4, 2012.

  1. peRFection

    peRFection Rookie

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    #1
  2. The Bawss

    The Bawss Banned

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    Yes, it's ridiculous. One of his favourite shots as well, judging by how often he pulls out this "trump card" as a point-ender.
     
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  3. Xizel

    Xizel Professional

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    Relentless assault.
     
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  4. svijk

    svijk Semi-Pro

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    This shot doesn't work against Nadal....in fact works to Nadal's advantage.... :(
     
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  5. kimbahpnam

    kimbahpnam Hall of Fame

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    that's his bread and butter.
     
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  6. phnx90

    phnx90 Hall of Fame

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    He really should be going for Rafa's BH, so CC FHs instead of I/Os.

    It's just ridiculous how few options a player with as much variety as Roger has when he plays Rafa.
     
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  7. Xizel

    Xizel Professional

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    Federer just makes some horrendous shot selections against Nadal. At this year's AO, he kept approaching DTL to Nadal's forehand (nobody needs to be reminded of his passing ability on that wing) and got tooled for it. That's if he even made the low percentage shot, because he attempted to hit them on the rise to be aggressive, knowing how good Nadal's forehand was.
     
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  8. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    Actually, the drive into Nadal's forehand corner is one of the best plays to beat Nadal. His movement in that direction is poor compared to his backhand and, because he comes up over the ball so much, the likelihood of him not getting enough dept on the next shot is significant - as Djokovic and others have shown in the last year.

    It's just the lack of court-speed generally help him cover this weakness (as it does with many others who have this common area of weakness in their game).
     
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  9. Xizel

    Xizel Professional

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    Same thing with Federer. He camps the backhand corner so much, his forehand corner should be targeted more. Magic Fed is waning now, so the chances of him flipping the defense-offense switch is minimal.
     
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  10. BULLZ1LLA2.0

    BULLZ1LLA2.0 Banned

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    Murray's biggest weakness in that Dubai final was the backhand passing shot. He missed them repeatedly. It is usually one of Murray's strengths. But he kept netting them over and over again.

    And the backhand passing shot is one of the things Nadal hurts Federer with.
     
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  11. phnx90

    phnx90 Hall of Fame

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    It's funny, because his DTL BH passing shot is hit with a fair bit of power, accuracy and confidence, and yet Rafa cowers when he has to hit a standard BH DTL shot, which is pretty much the same thing, but safer.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2012
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  12. purge

    purge Hall of Fame

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    when playing the FH from his BH corner the shot into nadals BH is the DTL tho and not the CC. thats the far more risky shot obviously. the only time fed gets to play a CC FH into nadals BH is when nadal feeds him a bll into his FH first. guess how often thats gonna happen
     
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  13. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    For sure, I agree to an extent. It's not as much a liability for Federer though because of his grip and swing path - so he tends to hit fewer shots on that wing which pop up mid-court like Nadal does.
     
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  14. Agassifan

    Agassifan Hall of Fame

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    unbelievable power
     
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  15. peRFection

    peRFection Rookie

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    yep.........
     
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  16. cork_screw

    cork_screw Hall of Fame

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    Haha. I saw this too and this was one of the awesome moments in that match. The best thing is at 13:03. You see Andy Murray's soul get broken. That is the best part when you're crushing someone. The moment you can tear their hopes away and emotionally gut them that is probably the most rewarding thing when playing any competitive sport. It sounds sick, but it feels so good in an evil way.
     
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  17. swfh

    swfh Rookie

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    im not sure if it is all power. Murray said that the courts were really fast, which play to fed's advantage.
     
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  18. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    And it's the reason Murray will never be considered a great (even if he flukes a slam). He can't push top players to that point mentally. When he wins it's solid, often outstanding, but you never get the feeling a top opponent feels like they were owned to an extent it would affect future encounters.
     
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  19. Mainad

    Mainad G.O.A.T.

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    None of the top 4 players feel they have been 'owned' whenever they lose to each other and that includes Murray! That's why they are the top players. They respect each other, are wary of each other because they have to be but none of them are ever afraid of each other because they have all beaten each other on multiple occasions and will continue to do so on future occasions!
     
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  20. Mainad

    Mainad G.O.A.T.

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    I don't know what match you were watching but I watched the Dubai final and, in no sense, did Murray get 'crushed' or have his 'soul get broken'. Both sets were actually fairly tight affairs as Federer himself conceded in his post match interview. There were only a few points in it either way. Murray lost because he didn't serve well and his backhand misfired too often while Federer was sharper on serve and made less errors. That's all!

    The scoreline was 7-5,6-4 to Federer not 6-0,6-1!
     
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  21. Biscuitmcgriddleson

    Biscuitmcgriddleson Professional

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_CuXqNBr2c

    I'm pretty sure it's mostly power. Scary how much more power he use to hit with off the forehand wing.
     
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  22. Nathaniel_Near

    Nathaniel_Near Talk Tennis Guru

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    Relax folks, ...
    Great performance from Fed in this match, he made Murray look ordinary on this occasion.
     
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  23. Fate Archer

    Fate Archer Hall of Fame

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    It might be the paintjob or just me, but It looks like he is shortening his backswing even more this year so far.
     
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  24. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Shorter and flatter hit, it seems.
     
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  25. BULLZ1LLA2.0

    BULLZ1LLA2.0 Banned

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    I was talking about the backhand cross-court pass when Murray missed a lot vs Federer but Rafa makes routinely (and often on the run).
     
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  26. rst

    rst Rookie

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    This shot doesn't work against Nadal....in fact works to Nadal's advantage...

    from the limited tennis i have seen nadal greatest shots come from the angles...wizard like acuteness.

    when nadal is bested what has worked most often??

    my first thought on strategy was to keep him boxed towards the center of the basline and then thrown in slice and approach or drop shot variety.
     
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  27. purge

    purge Hall of Fame

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    asking tsonga, delpo, gonzo, söderling etc what worked best seems to have been: blast him off the court from the baseline whenever his shots land short, then come to the net and make the damn volley. thats all
     
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  28. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    You wouldn't know it by the look on his (Murray's) face a lot of the time.

    Fact is, he just doesn't have the stomp on my opponent sort of aspect to his game when it comes to the top guys. Federer, Nadal and Djokovic do.

    In so far as being wary of each other, the three above aren't wary of Murray imo. They may lose to him sometimes but there's little in his game which can render them helpless. What cork_screw said was right imo, it doesn't need to apply to whole matches, rather key points which show both players who is putting their best foot forward. The point in the video showed exactly that.
     
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  29. phnx90

    phnx90 Hall of Fame

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    Well I wasn't replying to your post directly; it's just that your post reminded me of that particular observation, that's all.
     
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  30. Mainad

    Mainad G.O.A.T.

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    Murray makes a lot of expressions in his matches whether he's playing Nadal or the lowest ranked player on the tour. Means nothing.


    Really? I wonder if Nadal felt 'stomped' on when Murray bagelled him in Tokyo for the loss of just FOUR points??

    Sorry, I guess we'll have to completely disagree. I've watched Murray play the top 3 often and he's beaten them numerous times just as they have beaten him numerous times. At no point whatsoever, have I ever witnessed or suspected Murray of being afraid to play against these guys anymore than they are afraid to play him. But to state that none of the top 3 are wary of playing Murray is just plain ridiculous given the way he has beaten them sometimes. They ALL respect each other and NONE of them go into matches against each other thinking it's going to be fairly routine or plain-sailing. It would be absurd and crazy for them to ever think otherwise.

    Do you honestly think that Federer would be blasé about playing Murray given that he still has a losing H2H against him or that he doesn't feel wary and cautious. That's not to say he doesn't feel confident of course but the respect is always there. Always!
     
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  31. Russeljones

    Russeljones G.O.A.T.

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    Often times in a tournament Murray looks good and aggressive by his standards. When he gets to the point where he's playing one of the top 3, as soon as the going get's tough he retreats to his Wozniacki-type tennis of running and retreiving. The top 3 don't play any different when up against Murray.
     
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  32. Rozroz

    Rozroz Legend

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    i'm afraid i have to agree on that.
    he also looks too tensed all the time, which always ends up with his mumbling and screaming to his box.
     
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  33. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    Yea, I agree.

    Murray's backhand was strangely off in that final, didn't seem like he was getting as much shoulder turn as usual. But his forehand was better than usual.
     
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  34. Nathaniel_Near

    Nathaniel_Near Talk Tennis Guru

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    Relax folks, ...
    He was rushed on the BH side way too often, especially due to the speed of the court. When Fed is on his game he's really good at keeping Murray constantly off balance. Interestingly, he's not really able to do the same to Djokovic and Nadal. I suspect it's primarily due to them being slightly better movers, actually. Murray can get caught in this sort of confused no man's land when he gets into these BH I/O FH exchanges with TMF.
     
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  35. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    His bh doesn't look as good when he's playing Federer. A lot of their past encounters you see many of there rallies are coming from Fed's fh to Murray's bh. Murray's bh doesn't hurt Fed while Fed likes to pin him on the ad side. Since Fed is an aggressor while Murray is on defensive mode, it's Fed who dictate the point and is the one who will pull the trigger to end the point. It's no secret that Fed win most of the points because his fh is BETTER than Murray's bh !
     
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  36. Mainad

    Mainad G.O.A.T.

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    Don't forget that Murray has STILL won most of their encounters (H2H currently 8-7 to Murray). His BH when he hits it properly (which he didn't do in Dubai) is usually more than good enough to counteract Federer's FH.
     
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  37. batz

    batz G.O.A.T.

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    He looked pretty stompy when he was beating Rafa in Tokyo and won the third set for loss of just four points.

    Didn't he just double break Noel last Friday in the first set? Didn't Murray get more games in the final than Noel got against him in the semis?

    Did I imagine Murray beating Fed 2 and 3 in the Shanghai final in '10?

    Is Murray not 8-6 in finals v the other members of the top 4?

    The fact is that the assertion you made isn't supported by the evidence - and that would make what you said not a fact.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2012
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  38. dnj30

    dnj30 Semi-Pro

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    I agree, and I am a big Murray fan. I still can't place him on the same level as the other big three. I dont see it being a lack of physical talent, he can hit all the shots. Too often when i watch him play one of the other 3, he seems to always have the match dictated to him. His style is too reactive, not proactive. Granted, if he is having a great ball striking day he can still win a match playing that way. He has that much talent. But its not going to work that often. Hopefully Lendl is able to help him in that aspect of his mental game.
    Federer reminds me of a great chess player who can see 6 moves ahead in the game. His shots almost always have a purpose. He crafts the points so well. I just dont see this with Murray, even in the matches he wins. I dont know if that type of mental skill can be learned, but i hope it can because I'd love to see Murray do well.
     
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  39. kragster

    kragster Hall of Fame

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    Murray has never beaten the top 4 in a match he has lost. That should tell you how overhyped he is.:twisted:

    On a serious note, I don't like Murray but he is actually the one player who kind of matches up the best on average against the other 3. There is no 'go to play' against Murray, there is a go-to play against the other 3 ( high to Fed's BH, low to Nadal's BH, pace changes to Djoker). At the end of the day I think it comes down to execution and Murray isn't able to execute as consistently as the other 3.

    Yes Fed's FH is better than Murray's BH but that's not really anything new because Fed's FH is the best shot in tennis!
     
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  40. Nathaniel_Near

    Nathaniel_Near Talk Tennis Guru

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    Relax folks, ...
    Can't say I agree. Nadal's go to play is to swamp the Murray forehand and interestingly, Fed's is to blitz the backhand, at least when he's on it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2012
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  41. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    Exactly...
     
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  42. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    This about knowing ownage is occurring.

    The point is not whether you can beat someone once like that - but whether you can keep the momentum, get under their skin etc. He knows that it'll be unlikely he can repeat that effort - and Nadal knows it too. That is the point.

    Watch the 2010 Aussie Open final again. Murray knew he had lost that match after about 5 minutes. He made a small effort of it in the 3rd but was otherwise along for the ride. Federer knew it too. Ditto with the 2011 Aussie Open against Djokovic.

    Not at all. Of course they start matches with some level of caution - but Federer goes into them knowing if he plays his game and is making balls the result will more often than not be in his favour - and the bigger the occasion, the more than slant. and.... Murray knows it too.

    These guys go into slam matches knowing Murray has failed at every hurdle in slams - and dismally so in finals. They know it, he knows it and it affects both mind sets without doubt.
     
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  43. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    And 0 and 3 in the finals that matter. All of them were pretty much one way traffic too.
     
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  44. Nathaniel_Near

    Nathaniel_Near Talk Tennis Guru

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    Relax folks, ...
    A stellar counterargument.
     
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  45. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    I wasn't trying to be glib. Some players can shine when it doesn't matter as much and their ceiling for physical/mental or whatever performance just isn't as high as others. To date Murray's career shows this.

    I can't think that all four don't go into matches with this in their mind, especially Murray. It's easy to wipe the slate clean - to a point but ownage does have a way of rearing itself the more the pressure increases.
     
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  46. Mainad

    Mainad G.O.A.T.

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    Lol...you see what you want to see. I see nothing of the kind and neither does Murray!

    He already pre-peated that effort in Rotterdam 2009! Trust me, Nadal knows full well what Murray can be capable of!

    We all know that Murray has been too tentative and nervous in Slam finals.
    He never had the luck of playing a non-Slam winner as the top 3 all did in their maiden Slam wins (none of them had to play against each other) and we all know how crucially important it is to get that first one under your belt.
    Nevertheless, you have to deal with whoever is in front of you. In the 2010 AO, Murray overcame his initial nerves to go 5-2 up in that 3rd set but couldn't serve it out. In the tie-breaker he held several set points but couldn't convert them. In the 2011 AO, I think he was surprised at how good Djokovic was playing given that he had beaten him in their previous two meetings. Frankly he underestimated him and realised it too late. But then, Djokovic 2011 was taking EVERYONE by surprise with his enhanced level of play and proceeded to victimize everybody else on the tennis court for much of that year, especially a certain Majorcan player! Murray wasn't the only one.

    Federer is now 3-2 against Murray in finals. Federer has won their 2 Slams of course, Murray their 2 Masters meetings. Murray knows that, if he plays his game, he has a good chance of beating Federer because he has already done it. Just not yet in a Slam.

    Oh yeah, Murray has been 'dismal' in every single Slam where he has played the top 3 hasn't he? Yep, he's 'dismally' beaten Nadal twice and dismally took Djokovic to the brink at this year's AO. Just not yet been able to achieve it in finals. Uphill task for Murray? You'd have to say yes, given that he's not yet achieved it. Impossible? Not by any stretch of the imagination.
     
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  47. batz

    batz G.O.A.T.

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    So you're now qualifying your assertion to 'in slams'. That's quite a different argument to the 'fact' you posited.

    I love it when tennis fans say that masters series finals 'don't matter'. Do you watch tennis for anything other than 8 weeks per year - why?
     
    #47
  48. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    From the get go it has been clear that the matches that matter are the ones after which they hand out the trophy. Anything else is just on the way there.

    Slam finals matter most. No-one is remembered for their masters series wins relative to their slam totals.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2012
    #48
  49. dnj30

    dnj30 Semi-Pro

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    Like it or not, tennis(and very similarly, golf with the "majors") is all about the four slams. Thats just the way it is. Not to say that other tourneys are meaningless, but they are far far less important in the eyes of everyone, including the players. I think that once Murray gets his first(which i think will be soon) his confidence will really improve and he could reel off a bunch. But right now i think if he faces one of the "big three" in the final of a grand slam, he deep down doesn't expect to win. Its completely in his head, in my opinion.
     
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  50. Nathaniel_Near

    Nathaniel_Near Talk Tennis Guru

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    Relax folks, ...
    I know. I was commending you for your stellar counterargument! I agree entirely.
     
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