Rosewall > Laver

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by Prisoner of Birth, Jan 3, 2013.

  1. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    look, I'll differentiate b/w two cases here :

    when opinions are somewhere near reality and could be debated upon ... , for example, I'd say safin's level of play at the AO when playing well is up there with anyone else, including federer, agassi, djoker and better than that of lendl ,sampras, becker etc ..... this is well backed up by his performances at AO 2004,05 ...even if he has only one AO ...

    but if someone were to say that safin, when playing well would defeat anyone on grass including federer, sampras, mac, becker, borg etc ... well then there's bound to be some laughter and criticism ...

    BobbyOne's opinion is like the 2nd kind ...

    if BobbyOne *actually* did some more research on the records on his own and said that he did so or admitted he hasn't watched many matches of federer at his peak or said he'd like to watch more matches before getting back on that, I'd say *that* takes some character. Not just changing views because a few of us here told so ...

    reading and thinking on others PoVs is well and good, that's just one step, but one needs to actually do some research on their own .....

    just for another example, I think some of TMF's points on tennis history and players of the history are plainly laughable ..he's seen quite a bit in the 2000s , but not before ... Therefore I wouldn't pay that much attention to his points regarding tennis before 2000 or so .....

    only in BobbyOne's case, its worse as he claims he's "studied" players from many generations , including the present one .. yet if he comes up with points like nadal's/djoker's peak level of play is much better than federer's (can you imagine the laughter from nadal/djoker if they ever heard anything like that !? :) ) ,well ......
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2013
  2. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    You'd like to differentiate between the laughable and the non-laughable. That's your choice; I do it too. But I've seen laughter and ridicule, on discussion boards, have far more negative effects than positive ones.
     
  3. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    More than Fed? Better than Fed.

    Not possible!
     
  4. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    I've seen Laver and Rosewall during their playing days and I can tell you that Rosewall's volley was quite amazing. My favorite Rosewall volley was when it seemed like the ball passed him on the backhand side when somehow he seemed to hit the ball when it was slightly behind him for an angled backhand crosscourt drop shot winner. Rosewall was more solid on the forehand volley and he missed fewer volleys in my opinion.

    We're talking fractions here. There's really not much difference but I can write that a tennis magazine (I think it was World Tennis) ranked Rosewall as higher than Laver on the volley in I believe a poll of the players.
     
  5. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Rosewall was the best ever technician master and first time I watched him, being so much focused on his bh,I found amazing how clean and perfect struck his volleys were
    Laver was a crush net player and he also had enormous touch and feeling
    Both won many points at the net so it makes no sense to compare
     
  6. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    I agree with you there.

    But to show how great the Rosewall volley, Rosewall in the mid to late 1970's when he was around 40 was named by World Tennis Magazine to have the second best backhand volley and second best forehand.

    I'm a big Rosewall admirer. He is perhaps the perfect example of smooth efficiency in tennis.
     
  7. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Rosewall never overdid anything
    Never wasted timing or energy
    Is that the reason he was known as Pockets ( mean man)?
     
  8. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    You're a prisoner of your mind.
     
  9. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    hoodjem, Prisoner might be too onesided but he gives some reasonable facts.
     
  10. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    I agree. Eclectic.
     
  11. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    There´d be no doubts if Laver had just taken the last two points of their frentic Dallas final in 72.
     
  12. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    ^^^Then there'd be no debate, and where would we be?

    (We would not be talking about the Little Thief.)
     
  13. Phoenix1983

    Phoenix1983 Hall of Fame

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    It's not a pseudo-argument.

    When are you going to accept that a man who loses FIVE times in the final of the world's biggest tournament, when he was dominating and winning majors elsewhere, cannot possibly be GOAT?

    It's like saying a football (soccer) team can be the greatest of all time when they keep losing World Cup finals. Or a baseball team keep losing the World Series final. Or an athlete keep winning all other races but then keep getting silver in the Olympic final.
     
  14. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    That is true.As I posted before, for myself it´s always been kind of " Whom do you love more, mom or dad?".
     
  15. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    ^^^Tilden.
     
  16. CyBorg

    CyBorg Legend

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    It is very much a pseudo-argument, assuming a pseudo-argument is one that doesn't have a leg to stand on.

    Your analogies are poor. Unlike Wimbledon, none of these stages were devalued by a pro/amateur split, in which certain players were banned from participating.

    So either you are engaging in bad argumentation on purpose or out of ignorance.
     
  17. Phoenix1983

    Phoenix1983 Hall of Fame

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    Er.....what?

    You do realise that the pro-amateur split which existed when Rosewall reached his first 2 Wimbledon finals should have made it EASIER for him to win the title - as many of the top players, notably Gonzales, were not there. Yet he still couldn't get the job done.

    The third and fourth times he reached the W final, the pro/am split didn't exist. It was the Open Era.
     
  18. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Phoenix, You change from five to four Wimbledon failures. That's a little mistake. A greater one is your stubborness in blaming Rosewall without any reason.
     
  19. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    but who could have beaten the 1970-1971 John Newcombe on fast grass?

    It was not Rosewall´s fault that Newk had SUCH peak
     
  20. Phoenix1983

    Phoenix1983 Hall of Fame

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    I was being generous to Rosewall by ignoring the 1967 W Pro.
     
  21. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki, Rosewall did beat Newcombe on 1970 US Open fast grass
     
  22. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Phoenix1983 and BobbyOne,

    Frankly I don't think either of you are going to change your minds. It's getting rather boring because it's the same statements.

    Honestly the key to a great player is the ability to win on all surfaces. Rosewall won on grass, clay, wood, indoor canvas etc.

    Tilden technically did not win any of the current recognized clay court majors so technically he did not win by today's standards a clay major but he won so many US Claycourts and other great clay events that you couldn't deny his greatness. However he actually won a red clay major in the World Hardcourt which was the clay court championship of the world because the French was only Open to French people. Does a person deny the greatness of Tilden because he technically did not win a classic major? Just my two cents and considering inflation it's probably negative value.

    Guys just switch to another topic. It's really not a discussion anymore because no one is giving in on any points.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2013
  23. Phoenix1983

    Phoenix1983 Hall of Fame

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    ^ pc1, you are right, there is no point continuing this debate.
     
  24. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Phoenix, I agree.
     
  25. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Lets elaborate on Newcombe grass peak making him the alfa male in early 70
     
  26. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    I not sure if he was the alpha male but here's some highlights of the great Newk. I was privileged to see him during his best years.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sR2asq8ZrSk
     
  27. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Yes, but see what happened in 1971 W and 73 FH.

    of course, Rosewall also beat Newk at the 1974 event, which was a well merited win for muscless.
     
  28. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki, Rosewall beat Newcombe in two 1974 events: in the two biggest of the year...
     
  29. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Tilden won 3 Wimbledons and 7 US Championships. They are current recognised majors.
     
  30. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    I meant clay majors. Thanks for correcting my stupid error. I'll change the wording on it.
     
  31. kishnabe

    kishnabe G.O.A.T.

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    POB.....nice thread. Rosewall deserves to be call one of the greats.....and I believe is a better player than Laver at their peaks.
     
  32. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kishnabe, At least I would say they were equal at their peak (1961 to 1963; 1966 to 1969).
     
  33. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Laver had an additional track Rosewall never had
     
  34. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I also happen to think Rosewall´s FH, while not that uncomparable BH stroke was terrific.perfect timing, perfect swing at the ball, perfect follow through.He made it look so easy¡¡¡

    The basic for his brilliant play, of course, was his unmatched positional sense.He seemed like an orchestra director.
     
  35. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki, Thanks for the praise of Rosewall's forehand. I especially admire his forehand volley...
     
  36. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Yes, could be the best ever FH volley
    Hoad' s and Newcombe' s were also great as well as Mac' s
    Hard choice
     
  37. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki, Yes this sounds curious because usually Rosewall is famous for having the best backhand volley, together with Roche...
     
  38. ARFED

    ARFED Semi-Pro

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    I believe that Edberg would have something to say about that...
     
  39. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Kramer's forehand volley was great also as Budge Patty's. But yes Rosewall's forehand volley was exceptional strong and consistent.

    https://twitter.com/TennisPublisher/status/277869706864631808
     
  40. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Edberg,Mac,Laver,Ashe all had great BH volleys, and of course Roche.I don´t think Rosewall´s was any better although it was a masterful shot.hey¡ we talk about the top 5-6 volleyers of the last 50 years¡¡

    Adriano Panatta had also a marvelous FH volley and an excellent drop volley on the BH side.
     
  41. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Yes, Kramer´s was excellent and Budge Patty is one of the most intringuing players to me.I think a Drobny vs Patty match is one of the finest menus for a tennis gourmet and a classy rivalry that will be among the best ever.
     
  42. CyBorg

    CyBorg Legend

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    How does the pro-amateur split help Rosewall when he spent his peak years on the professional tour, banned from Wimbledon?

    You post nonsense.
     
  43. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    Laver's peak seems to be much more highly regarded than Rosewall's.
     
  44. Phoenix1983

    Phoenix1983 Hall of Fame

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    I was referring to his 2 finals in the amateurs. Why take my post out of context?

    Not true.
     
  45. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    NatF, The question is if that regarding is justified.
     
  46. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    Seems to be the view of contemporaries. I believe in the other thread there's a quote from Laver himself saying as much?
     
  47. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Laver,Rosewall and Hoad are like God,Lord´s son and the Holy Spirit.Umpossible to separate.
     
  48. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    I think it has to do with the (true) Grand Slam of 1969--an awesome achievement.
     
  49. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    Funny that the players themselves have made plenty of distinctions between them.
     
  50. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Kiki's typos or neologisms (I'm never certain) are actually getting to be funny, IMO.

    "Umpossible." I like it.
     

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