RPT Spanish Training Model

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by tennis_balla, Dec 8, 2009.

  1. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    It was deleted. I am not sure why, but I made it very clear in that thread where all the material came from, and asked mods to delete if anybody raised copyright objections, so that might have been the reason. I understand that. It is a commercial venture, at the end of the day. Someone needs to make money from the books and videos. The more closely guarded it is, the better.

    I think I have seen enough of MTM by now. Nothing new in it for me.

    I think the intention of MTM is not to provide any free tips or instruction on this board but just keep refering to it.
     
  2. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    Thats too bad. I really wanted my questions answered (although I already know the answers). :)

    I am really glad we have the moderators we have now. I have exchanged some emails with some of them and they are very balanced and unbiased people. So when they delete a thread, it can sting a little because we get involved in the conversation, but as you implied, it is their boards and they need to show that it is their boards.

    Let's respect these folks that want to continue with RPT alone. I have learned enough about RPT that I can say I really like it. If I was starting over again, I would look into being certified in it. Moving on to help others....
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2009
  3. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    It is amazing what you find if you just read the post.

    These 2 sentences say so much about how a person thinks and operates.
    They need to show that it is their boards??? lol
     
  4. Djokovicfan4life

    Djokovicfan4life Legend

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    Haha, this thread is not long for this world.
     
  5. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    .....................
     
  6. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Please clarify a doubt about kick serve. Do you believe in the motto "To get a twist, snap your wrist"? Do you think that the serving arm should practically stop before impact, and then the server should use the wrist snap to hit the ball to get a kick serve? And that this should not be like a first serve, where the arm continues to move into the ball? Do you believe that a last-instant slowdown of racquet followed by a wrist snap is the way to deliver a kick serve?

    Please be specific in your answer.
     
  7. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Last edited: Dec 18, 2009
  8. tennis_balla

    tennis_balla Hall of Fame

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    Edit: Nevermind misread the post
     
  9. Djokovicfan4life

    Djokovicfan4life Legend

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    The ball is almost dead center in the Federer pic, and Nadal hits with so much topspin that it's not practical to think that he's going to hit the center every time.

    I don't think that they are trying to hit lower/higher or whatever.
     
  10. chess9

    chess9 Hall of Fame

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    Very good videos. Many thanks to the OP. I really found interesting the doctor's comments that balance was developed best between ages 3 and 6! Wow!! So, all those early childhood activities riding a bike, skating, playground equipment, swimming, kicking a ball, are critical to developing balance. Even swinging a tennis racquet early must have some benefit.

    This teacher is very very good.

    -Robert
     
  11. hyperwarrior

    hyperwarrior Professional

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    I have to thank the OP for the videos....really great
     
  12. clta

    clta New User

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    I'll most probably be attending the RPT course in Australia in the hopes of getting certified... i come from malaysia and we've never done video analysis.. seeing its very important in the RPT course could some of u guys gimme tips on what are they looking out for ?
     
  13. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

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    Hi clta, video analysis is just another tool used to aid the coach and the player in understanding what's happpening within a given stroke - the advantage being you can slow down the speed to pick out more detail (im sure you know this :) ). In respect of the RPT video analysis is used exactly the same way, it's another tool, it's not the be all and end all so don't worry about having not used it before.

    You'll still be looking for the same things as you'd be looking for with the naked eye, but the use of video can make it easier to see. You'll still correct the errors/technique/whatever using the same teaching model regardless of how you spot the fault. The RPT models itself on being "Masters of technical excellence" so the technical model (both physical and racquet) and the error detection/correction models are excellent.

    Hpe you enjoy the course - give us some feedback if you do it.
     
  14. clta

    clta New User

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    yea I know how it's done etc.. I've youtube some videos of video analysis done at the NBTA and I see they're very concern about the degrees etc. Where can I learn where to start measuring the degrees from..I know the computer software will help do it but where exactly to click to start from and major points to lookout for
     
  15. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Precisely.
     
  16. tennis_balla

    tennis_balla Hall of Fame

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    All quiet on the western front....
     
  17. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

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    @clta - what degrees are you looking to measure? If you're refering to angles in the body through the swing I wouldn't worry too much - IMG might do this but it's not something I've ever come across within the RPT. Video tends to be used more to identify errors or commonalities between players and their swings. Things you couldn't see with the naked eye.

    @ Balla
    OW seems to have taken all the gloss and momentum out of this thread - shame really as the RPT/Spanish system offers so much more than MTM!
     
  18. clta

    clta New User

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    ahh that's a great relieve to hear.. yea IMG puts a lot of emphasis into it that's why I thought it's the general consensus to do so.. but if it isn't then it should be alright..
    thanks
     
  19. tennis_balla

    tennis_balla Hall of Fame

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    I'm just happy all the off-topic arguing has stopped.

    This thread will eventually die off like the rest, thats inevitable. I just hope I had a chance to help some people out and introduce something new to the forum here by posting those videos but if anyone has anything to add, or share in terms of RPT, Spanish tennis or get a discussion going comparing different teaching methods to RPT I'm all for it. What I don't want though is this to turn into another MTM thread.
     
  20. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

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    @ clta

    While the RPT take a very technical approach in terms of teaching racquet and physical techniques - it is a very simple approach, requiring some key elements to be in place in order to produce the required swing. If you look at most Spanish tour players their technique is no more advanced than anybody else (maybe even less advanced) - what you do see is simple and most importantly repeatable - and therefore very effective. This, combined with very effective teaching of movement and the use of the body, makes for an excellent system.

    Whilst the IMG guys are checking the minute angles of the swing the Spanish guys are out hitting sh!tloads of balls!
     
  21. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I agree with you here balla and appreciate your more reasonable position on these subjects.
    Sounds like Ash wants to get it fired up again by stating his opinion that his chosen system has so much more to offer than MTM, especially since he has posted on here how little he knows of MTM, Oscar and the beginnings of RPT as well.
     
  22. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

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    5263 - I know plenty of the beginings of the RPT, and have seen enough of MTM to form my opinion - you alone have helped more than you can imagine! However, as Balla said, that is another discussion, for another thread for another day.

    As you are still active in this thread what would you like to add or know about the Spanish/RPT systems?
     
  23. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Well since you sought to bring MTM into this thread in a negative light, it opens a lot to discuss doesn't it. I'm glad I was able to help you to a such a great extent.
     
  24. W Cats

    W Cats Rookie

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    Ash you mentioned that RPT may highlight stroke mechanics less in their methods. Does this have any correlation to Rafa's relatively weak serve in the early part of his pro career?
     
  25. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    My understanding is that RPT had little to do with Rafa's early years, but maybe Ash can speak more to that.
     
  26. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

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    @W Cats

    I was speaking to Toni Colom, who ran the academy where Rafa trained as a junior, about something similar a few weeks back. In Rafa's junior years, because of his ability, there was a great deal of pressure on him to succeed and he often played up 1 or 2 age groups. There's a huge difference physically between 10's and 14's - this caused him to develop some of his more unique swing traits - like the reverse finish forehand and so on. Toni Nadal and perhaps more now Toni Colom are working very hard with Rafa to improve certain areas of his game - as you point out the serve was a definate area of weakness - and one which has developed alot in the last few years.

    I don't think the serve issue specifically was due to the coaching system - as I said the approach is simple but the resultant technique is (usually) fundamentally sound. I feel it was more the result of having to find an effective way of starting the point before bringing his other skills to bear against bigger and more experienced players.

    He also commented that while Rafa would spend 3 days per week at the academy with him, he would spend the rest of the time drilling with Toni Nadal in Manacor - perhaps something sliped though the net in transition from the two coaches?
     
  27. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

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    Both Toni Colom and Toni Nadal are RPT certified coaches (as is Francis Roig who has travelled with Rafa in the past). Colom has worked with Rafa for about 14 years (so since he was about 9 years old) - I would assume he had been working with Unlce Toni for a few years before that though. I would think any RPT influence wouldn't have kicked in until Rafa was in his early to mid teens - similar to the time period when Murray was at Sancez-Casal.
     
  28. W Cats

    W Cats Rookie

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    Interesting history about Rafa. Slightly off topic but could you tell me about the hx. and development of the reverse finish forehand and it's usage. I profess that I know little about the finish and it's technical aspect and application. For whatever reason I initially equated it with women's tennis and it has seemed to gain traction with the men as well.
     
  29. 10ispro

    10ispro Rookie

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    Reverse finish isnt something you would ever necessarily teach. B/c of the grips being used (SW and Western), speed of the game and court positioning, it is a shot that develops in emergency situations.
    Pretty much everyone who hits with a reverse finish does so in an emergency situation to impart massive amounts of topspin on the ball to provide enough net clearance and hopefully some court penetration as a counter attack, so they cannot be attacked.

    I have two stories about the reverse finish.
    the 1st is When I was taking the RPT course, someone asked a similar question about Nadal. Emilio responded that if you actually really watch Nadal, he uses the reverse finish when he is not really playing well b/c he is defending too much. He has poor positioning way behind the baseline and is not in an position to attack or impose his game on anyone. Apparently, it is something they have been working on him doing less of unless absolutely needed. He said when Nadal is on and playing well, and not defending as much you donot see it very often, but when you start seeing it-its a sign that he has retreated behind the baseline too much.

    2nd story--I was at another conference and a Guy asked when do you teach the Nadal forehand? The response was "which forehand?"
    B/c realistically there are many different stroke patterns and finishes which are dependent on the situation.

    the 2 most common times the reverse finish is used are in emergency situations when you are scrambling to cover court. you have less than ideal positioning and you need to do something with the ball to provide a counter attack.
    2nd is on return of serve. b/c of the speed of the serve, less than ideal positioning to receive the serve, it becomes necessary to get the ball back in play with a decent return.
     
  30. 10ispro

    10ispro Rookie

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    whats interesting about this is in the ITF Advanced Coaching Manual is recommends Juniors play 3years ahead of their biological age.

    2nd interesting point is Emilio was very passionate about not paying attention to rankings below 18s. Basically saying they were meaningless and pointless and often hinder development of an athlete. He pretty much condemned the US system and USTA ranking system and linked it to one of the reasons the US is not producing top Pros like it once did.

    While I agree to many extents--one key thing that i remember from RPT training was one of the reasons Spain is such a force in tennis is b/c no matter where you go, the core message and principles will be the same.
    If you train at Juan Carlos Ferroro's Academy, or SC-A, or Brugera's---you will get a similar enough message all over the country.
    He said it is same in France and Argentina and many other countries.
    in US you get many many different messages and many many different ways of doing things.
    Emilio said if he gets a kid from France he knows that the junior will have good technique and good values, but a junior from the US "not so much".:cry:
     
  31. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

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    @10ispro

    Absolutley - I said the same in a thread in the Junior section when somebody asked about the next tennis player producing nation. A unified approach to coach education means a unified appproach to coaching, which as you say, results in a consistent message to all players.

    As for ratings/rankings, we have this argument with the LTA all the time. In the UK we now have ratings for players as young as 5. Players learn to chase ratings/rankings from an early age instead of learning to chase progress. Seems the USTA have the same issue.
     
  32. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I really like this as it speaks not only to chasing rankings unnecessarily, but also to identifying talent too young and prematurely.
     
  33. tennis_balla

    tennis_balla Hall of Fame

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    Same problem here in Canada for the most part. Pick the kids early mostly by who's ranked where, forget about the late bloomers, once you're in you're in.
     
  34. W Cats

    W Cats Rookie

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    What type of high school/jr. high programs are there in other country's with strong tennis programs. What qualifications do the coaches have? Are there standardized progressions? Do the schools serve as and early training/feeder program to the national programs?

    Sometimes I wonder if our(U.S.) limitations in producing more great tennis players lies not only in the national program but in accessibility. Look at the number of basketball players this country produces and how accessible the sport is to anyone from elementary age on up. I don't think these kids are getting a standardized coaching program. And if you really look at the coaching they get from an early age they are getting a mix/match of coaches from older kids to former high school and college players. In the early stages most are even volunteers. There really is not a national education organization that is responsible for the teaching of the game. But somehow we produce players that for the most part are not taking private lessons or going to the basketball version of Sanchez Cassal. For some reason as an industry we've made it more limited than even skiing, in that we had more athletes and medals in alpine skiing than tennis in the last round of olympics. IMHO
     
  35. 10ispro

    10ispro Rookie

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    you have hit on part of the problem. in the US, for the most part, Tennis is a rich sport. People who take lessons, goto clinics, camps etc...are mostly in higher income brackets.
    Emilio has said several times that many of the players at the various Academies in Spain are all middle to lower middle class. Which makes them hungrier with more drive and focus.
    Accessibility to top coaching is a definite problem for people who donot have the resources.
    there are actually several smaller clubs within the Sanchez-Casal Academy. There is of course The Main training center in Barcelona and Naples,FL but also there were 4-5 other smaller, kind of country club type facilities as well.
    All the coaches have the same training as in Barcelona and Naples.
     
  36. tennis_balla

    tennis_balla Hall of Fame

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    I found this video today from someone who trained at Sanchez-Casal. Great footage of some of the drills we talked about in this thread. You'll notice just how much they work the players up at the net and getting to the net. Not your typical Spanish style as most people would imagine.
    Some great footage also of Pato Alvarez running the players through some drills.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjbXWfACf2M

    Edit:

    Here's another one regarding their fitness. They do a lot of that treadmill stuff, making the players do side steps on treadmills and other footwork movements. The trainers build the speed up gradually over time and eventually say they have more control over the exercise with the treadmill because they can control the speed at which they want the player to move so its more beneficial.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Te8S5P1p-o
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2009
  37. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

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    On a fitness note - Murray was widely regarded as not being fit enough as ajunior and when he came on tour - whilst at AS-C his fitness programme wasn't designed by the fitness team - it was designed by the LTA in the UK and emailed over to the academy. All the team at AS-C could do was follw the email!

    Was lucky enough to work/talk with Jane Morely the other week for a couple of days, Jane was the Director of Physical Training at AS-C for 5 years and worked with players from Conchita Martinez to Murray. She produced many of the drills in your vid Balla.
     
  38. tennis_balla

    tennis_balla Hall of Fame

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    Was Murray under the LTA before going to AS-C? Interesting that they only wanted him to follow only the LTA fitness program. Do you know the reasons behind that? Were they wanting to have at least some form of control over Murray's development while at AS-C?
     
  39. 10ispro

    10ispro Rookie

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  40. tennis_balla

    tennis_balla Hall of Fame

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    Thats a great video also 10ispro, thanks for sharing that.
     
  41. 10ispro

    10ispro Rookie

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  42. tennis_balla

    tennis_balla Hall of Fame

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    10ispro thanks for that....again. The first video is great.Thats a great explanation of AS-C's getting 'behind the ball'. That was pushed a lot in the course in Barcelona, great method.
    I should go to one of those conferences, when is the next one?
     
  43. 10ispro

    10ispro Rookie

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    if it becomes annual then its December 2010. you donot have to be USPTA to attend and cost is the same.
     
  44. tennis_balla

    tennis_balla Hall of Fame

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    Yea you can really tell the USPTA is out dated and conventional and promoting 'false data' when they put up conferences such as this :rolleyes:
     
  45. chess9

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    I tried these at the Y today! They are much harder than they appear. I have large-ish feet (size 12) so I kept hitting the sides with my toes and stumbling. Of course, I'm not exactly twinkle toes either. ;) Going backwards and jumping off the sides is easier than the carioki step. Keep your hands up and ready to grab the rails if you are new to these. Great proprioception and footwork drill.

    I'd give this exercise a AAA+ rating if it were bonds. ;)

    Thanks for posting this.

    -Robert
     
  46. Ash_Smith

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  47. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Actually it is sad how much false data is contained in these, which could be outstanding drills; Also that you can't see the false data in the drills. I do think these vids are inspiring and full of great energy, although didn't see anything that I have not used in a more correct version.
    Overall very good vids for players to get some ideas of things they can work on.
     
  48. tennis_balla

    tennis_balla Hall of Fame

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    Just curious as to where you believe the false data in these videos exists? I'm not trying to start a fight but since you brought it up I'm curious to hear your opinion in more detail.
     
  49. VaBeachTennis

    VaBeachTennis Semi-Pro

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    What is the "false data" in the drills and what would be your more "correct' version of the drills?
     
  50. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I don't want to start a fight either, but thought you were the one who brought up the point on false data, and I quoted it in my post on this.

    But to answer-
    One example that is pretty obvious in the volley drill besides her technique, is the way the drill has the player step inside the svc line to cut off the volley on a nice angle, then recover back to center T; in spite of the RPTs own contention (which I agree with totally) that you should be doing drills in actual play circumstances.
    It would be extremely rare to step in and cut off a volley like that in a point, as you push off and recover back to the center T. I think Braden in tennis 2000 makes a good point about how it is best to practice volleys from this area as you continue towards the IVP.
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2009

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