Rule Question on a Let Call

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by Baxter, Jul 4, 2012.

  1. Baxter

    Baxter Professional

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    I was serving in a USTA adult league doubles match at 40-30. I called out "add in" and tossed the ball for my serve when the receiver called a let. I finished the serve which landed in but he made no attempt to return it. Everybody was confused so I asked him why he called a let. He said, "You called the score wrong, it's 40-30 and you called add in." I said 40-30 is add in. His partner told me to play two and we kept playing.

    I have two questions:

    1. Did I get the score wrong? Is it add in when you're serving at 40-30 even if there hasn't been a duce?

    2. If I did get the score right, what would the ruling have been?
     
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  2. TeflonTom

    TeflonTom Banned

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    1. u got it wrong. ad = advantage. u only call it 4 the point won after deuce

    2. doesnt matter if u were right or wrong. u cant serve til receiver is ready. if he wants 2 clarify somethin he can tell u to hold ur serve / play a let
     
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  3. Baxter

    Baxter Professional

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    He was ready. There was plenty of time (three or four seconds) between when I called the score and and my toss. He just made no attempt to return it because he had called the let during my toss. It just seems this could be abused and used as a form of gamesmanship. Basically I want to know what the ruling is if someone makes let calls when there is no let. Say I call a let because my opponent announces "five love" instead of fifteen love. It just seems wrong that he waited until the ball was in the air before he made the call about something so petty.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2012
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  4. TeflonTom

    TeflonTom Banned

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    that his prerogative brah. not ur place 2 say if he was ready or not

    if he try 2 play ur serve then call let, then u got somethin to complain bout. but he didnt
     
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  5. blakesq

    blakesq Professional

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    as soon as he called the let, he wasn't ready.

     
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  6. michael_1265

    michael_1265 Professional

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    Are you playing tennis with Sheldon Cooper???????

    That's a pretty minor issue to call a let for.
     
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  7. jdubbs

    jdubbs Hall of Fame

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    Let. First serve.

    He only did it once. If he did it multiple times, that would be different.
     
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  8. Tar Heel Tennis

    Tar Heel Tennis Semi-Pro

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    As a USTA Official, had I been called to your court to intercede, I would have asked you to call the correct score (although the outcome would be the same - you win the point, you win the game; you lose the point, it's deuce), since your opponent seemed to be bothered by your error.

    Also, the let would have been granted, because it was called to clarify a scoring error.

    * yes, I'm well aware that 40-30 and Ad-in are essentially the same thing, but technically, that's not true. It's a very minor issue, but in an officially sanctioned event, you are expected to follow the rules as explicitly as you can. Your opponent was correct in this instance.
     
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  9. Baxter

    Baxter Professional

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    So I can call I let if I hear a dog barking a few blocks away, or maybe if my nose itches? What happens then?

    QUOTE:

    Are you playing tennis with Sheldon Cooper???????

    END OF QUOTE

    Good one!
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2012
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  10. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    Your opponent was correct on the score but was either being anal or using gamesmanship...it's the details that'll kill ya'.
     
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  11. IA-SteveB

    IA-SteveB Professional

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    Not exactly a fair comparison in this context. You were called out on an error so the guy had a legitimate reason to call the let. What you are describing is looking for any reason to call a let just to do it. Just my humble opinion.
     
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  12. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    40-30 is equivalent to add in. I don't know what the rules say, but if your opponent made an issue out of something like that then, imo, he was being an *** and I hope you kicked his ****.

    So far, I haven't had to confront that sort of pettiness in league play.
     
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  13. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    See the above by an official. I like your fightin' spirit, it's what got us independent from the Brits. Happy 4th of July and hope you're enjoying Wimbledon.
     
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  14. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    He was ok to halt play to clarify the score. Doesn't change the fact that he's an idiot though
     
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  15. Steady Eddy

    Steady Eddy Hall of Fame

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    If 40-30 is add-in, then is 30-30 deuce? In a practical sense, it is b/c from this point on, whoever gets ahead by two points is the winner. But in a strict sense, 40-40 is deuce, not 30-30, and 40-30 and 30-40 are not 'ad' points.

    Since he made no attempt to return the serve, and had called 'let' before, I think what he did is ok. It's his business if he wants to be a stickler for the rules. I'd accept it and be tolerant. It doesn't sound like gamesmanship
     
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  16. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    ^^^I've called 30-30 duece and 40-30 ad in for over 20 years. Most folks are sharp enough to get it.
     
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  17. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    I see that I would be technically wrong.

    It's just that I see no good point to such pettiness from players. For me anyway, the purpose of these recreational leagues is to have fun and make new tennis friends.

    Happy 4th to you also, and yes I'm enjoying Wimbledon, simultaneously watching Tsonga-Kohlschreiber and Murry-Ferrer right now. Very exciting. These players are a joy to watch.
     
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  18. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    You do what ever you got to do to move the match along--this player was probably losing and had a stick up his ass and wanted to slow things up to get in your head. Learn the rules and play by the rules to lower ******y (vinagary, sorry censor) opponent's opportunities to derail the match.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2012
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  19. hcelizondo

    hcelizondo New User

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    There is a good reason to call the score the way it is supposed to. If there's a score dispute it is much easier to remember the points if those where called in the RIGHT way. A good advice t the OP is to read the code. Over there you will find the answers to your questions
     
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  20. TomT

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    I agree that the OP was technically wrong in calling the score the way he did. I also agree that the score should be called exactly according to the rules. But I disagree that it will ever make any difference whether 40-30 or add in is called. I've played about 800 matches and never once had a score dispute, and I've often heard "add in" instead of "40-30", etc.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2012
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  21. TeflonTom

    TeflonTom Banned

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    cmon, really?

    never had a situation when someone's not 100% that the score's right and u go "we won first point with df, you won second point with putaway volley" etc. until u agree on the proper score? thought everyone had them every so often

    in that situation callin ad in for 40-30 is deffo confusing. ur tryin to count 7 pts instead of 5, u'd get real lost real quick
     
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  22. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    I would prefer that opponents do not substitute ad-in for 40-30 or deuce for 30-30.

    The reason is that every now and then there will be a scoring dispute that needs to be resolved. If the server is making these substitutions, it is more confusing.

    Can you explain why you won't just call the score correctly? What does this other method accomplish?

    I am loathe to interrupt my opponent's serve if the score is called incorrectly. If they call it well before they toss, fine. But I have seen people misunderstand what the server said and call a let when the serve is on its way, only to be proven wrong about what score was called. I don't see why you shouldn't just play out the point and then deal with scoring confusion.

    Yeah, yeah. I know some people will say that if you didn't object to the score then you've consented. I don't go along with that unless the server announced the score clearly, loudly and well in advance of the toss, and the receivers acknowledged it. So far, I haven't had a problem.
     
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  23. Dags

    Dags Professional

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    I'm thoroughly in agreement with Cindy. There is a universally accepted scoring method: why would you try to change it?

    I'm surprised that people are suggesting that the opponent who challenged it was doing so as an act of gamesmanship. If anything, I'd suggest the player calling the score like that is attempting to gain an advantage: it's almost as if you want to confuse the opponent and make them question the score so that you can explain: 'Well, quite clearly 30-all and Deuce equate to the same thing, so I just call Deuce'. You might as well add 'Thickie' on the end just to rub it in.
     
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  24. stapletonj

    stapletonj Semi-Pro

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    I've often heard 30-30 referred to as "baby deuce"
     
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  25. Alchemy-Z

    Alchemy-Z Hall of Fame

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    Just for fun matches scores I normally call out

    15-0 (5 love)
    15-15- (5 all)
    30-15 (3-5)
    30-30 ( 3 all)
    40-30 (4-3)
    40-40 (deuce)
    Ad-40 (Add in)

    but during tournament play I always say exactly what it is.


    15-15 2nd serve (Fifteen serving fifteen 2nd serve)

    because i ran into a few picky score keepers when i first started playing and now I leave nothing to complain about.

    I've notice its generational (most of the time)

    The 50+ guys...hardly ever call score out before serving
    (and are often the one I have to correct...and then argue with on score)...like I do math for a living I have to memorize tons of numbers all day...trust me i know the score.

    30-to 40's call it like me (30 -15) = Three- Five

    20's - These guys are my favorite because they call it like its a match as the US OPEN.

    one group of SUB 30's I play with all the guys call the scores with what service they are on etc.

    they even say stuff like... Advantage Jones (or whoevers last name)

    But the best thing is if its 15-40 (Fifteen- Forty- First serve - 2 Break points)
     
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  26. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    I don't think it "accomplishes" anything special. The word "duece" literally translates to "two". It takes two more points to win the game. Whether it is 30-30 or 40-40 is fairly irrelevant as the game winner will be the one who wins by 2 from that point on.

    If someone can't figure that out, I feel bad for them. Can't be too smart if they haven't figured it out before playing a match against me. But again, no one has ever complained to me about it so I guess I've been lucky enough to have played some pretty whip smart folks over the last 20 years
     
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  27. North

    North Professional

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    Yeah, I am pretty cut and dried about it & just call the score the standard way. It is perfectly easy to do so and is less likely to add to any contention about the score.
     
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  28. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    I'm not trying to change it. It's just what I learned from my Dad in my younger days. Maybe his generation grew up thinking things were simple. Like the word "duece".
     
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  29. Mauvaise

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    It jars me a little when people use "ad" scoring for 30-40/40-30 points, but I would never correct them or outwardly show that I would rather they call the score properly. Some people have little quirks and I accept this as one of them. But if someone called "deuce" at 30-30 I would immediately stop and try to correct the score thinking they had us farther along in the game than we actually were. I wouldn't do because I was trying to exercise a little gamesmanship but because I would genuinely be confused.
     
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  30. CaldwellYSR

    CaldwellYSR Rookie

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    I've interrupted a serve like that before. I had never heard 40-30 be referred to as ad-in and the server called ad-in right after we won a point (40-15 we won goes 40-30) and it confused the heck out of me because I knew we were down but ad in after we got a point didn't make sense. I can also understand not calling it immediately because if you've never heard it called that way before it make you think and hesitate before disputing. That being said if it was a tournament I probably would have just played the point then asked what was going on with the score afterwards.
     
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  31. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    70's guys call the score out for their opponent's, they've learned to be cynical.

    80's have their wives keep track from the sideline.
     
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  32. TeflonTom

    TeflonTom Banned

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    sorta ot but ad in / ad out i find kinda annoying

    i just call my ad / ur ad.
     
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  33. gmatheis

    gmatheis Hall of Fame

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    Calling the score by these incorrect but roughly equivalent methods is a little form of gamesmanship, and here's why.

    The moment you do this is usually just prior to serving and when you call the score as ad-in rather than 40-30, you often make the returner think just a little about that rather than concentrating 100% on returning your serve. Even if it's only a tiny distraction, sometimes it is enough to cause a weak or mishit return.

    And as Cindy pointed out as well if there is a dispute in the score ad-in implies at least 7 points have been played while 40-30 means only 5 points have been played. Makes it harder to reconstruct the game if you arent sure how many points have even been played.
     
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  34. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    Well ain't that the pot calling the kettle black!
     
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  35. SuperJimmy

    SuperJimmy Rookie

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    I personally never had an issue with someone calling 'ad-in' for 40-30, but it does make me think for a split second whether the person thought we really played 7+ points vs just 5 or if they are just being lazy and could not be bothered to say 4 syllables vs 2. And if the person is a big server, a split second is a big deal. I've also never had an issue where we had to recount the points that were won/lost if there is a scoring dispute, but I can see how having the scores said correctly would help in that situation.

    I would definitely call someone out if they called 30-all deuce though. I'm sorry, that's just being confusing for the sake of being confusing. What happens if the scoring is no-ad? Do you say deuce (30-all)->ad-in (40-30)->deuce(40-all)->game? Or do you all of a sudden change the way you say it normally to the correct way just for these situations? (in which case you have two different methods of announcing scores...yeah that's simplicity for you)

    It has nothing to do with being smart or stupid. If a player chooses to divert from the rule book on how scores are called, even if logic proves these custom calls are identical (in terms of points being left to be payed), that's the player's fault for changing it up, not the person wondering 'hold on, what's going on here...oh he's just being lazy with scoring'.
     
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  36. spiderman123

    spiderman123 Professional

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    To make the discussion more interesting, don't the french call the first deuce as 40-40 and every thereafter as égalité?

    For the record, I like to call and hear 30-40 or 40-30.

    Cindy, it probably makes the server feel smarter for being able to recognize it is functionally similar. It can confuse the receiver who is expecting to hear 40-30 if he has not heard this before. In that case, it would be the server who is using a little bit of gamesmanship (not saying the OP did, but there is an argument, so why not just call it what it is and be done with it)
     
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  37. BHiC

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    I always substitute ad in for 40-30, and ad out for 30-40. I do this because when pronounced from the opposite side of the net, thirty and forty sound very similar. This makes it clear what the score is, and I don't have to deal with people stopping me because they misunderstood what I said. I have seen countless times where the server calls the score 40-30, then the receiver stops and says "no, don't you mean it is 40-30?"
     
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  38. spiderman123

    spiderman123 Professional

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    Completely agree with this.

    Once in our local club we were playing some doubles as the last part of a clinic and the pro made us play no-ad for quicker games. At one duece, I announced the score "ad-all" and although the pro agreed, there was some discussion on it. The point being, a new/unexpected score can cause some distraction and I do not agree that the receiver was trying to play any games there.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2012
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  39. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, nothing says "simple" like reliance on a translation of the original French.
     
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  40. IA-SteveB

    IA-SteveB Professional

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    You find the standard annoying? I'd think your method is weird.
     
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  41. TomT

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    All but 16 of my matches were played about 40 years ago. I don't remember ever having a score dispute. :) We were all in our 20's then, serious tennis nuts, and always called the score before beginning each point. I mean, if one is paying attention and keeping track, and calling out the scores, then how can one not remember something that happened minutes before?
     
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  42. TeflonTom

    TeflonTom Banned

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    hey brah, every1 find some stuff annoyin. i dont go round tryin 2 change other ppl tho. ppl wanna call ad in / ad out, i be cool with dat

    aint standard where i grew up brah. was always ad server / ad receiver. when ur playin u just call it in first person - my ad / ur ad.

    never heard o ad in / ad out til i came 2 college. lot less intuitive so find it a bit annoyin. but then most stuff the usta does is pretty annoyin
     
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  43. jswinf

    jswinf Professional

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    Kind of a jolt to see a word like 'intuitive' among the new-millenia-speak. I might have to take a course.
     
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  44. IA-SteveB

    IA-SteveB Professional

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    Understood. I guess we all have things that annoy us. It just seemed strange that something standard was annoying to you, but I see where you are coming from. I have never heard people say my ad or your ad ... or brah for that matter. (unless you count watching Dog the Bounty Hunter)
     
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  45. Orange

    Orange Rookie

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    What does brah mean?

    The only brah I know is short for brassiere.
     
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  46. BHiC

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    For the people who can't understand text-speak, here is my attempt for a translation -

    Everyone has certain things that annoy them. I do not take it upon myself to change people, though. I find it perfectly acceptable if my colleagues want to call the score ad in or ad out.

    Where I grew up, calling ad in and ad out was not the standard. The score was always called ad server, or ad receiver. And, when you are playing the match, it was very common to use the first person, and just say my ad, or your ad. In fact, I had never even heard of calling the score ad in or ad out until I attended college. I find this method a lot less intuitive, so it does at times annoy me. However, it seems as if most of what the USTA does is rather annoying.

    Hopefully that helps the over 40 crowd :)
     
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  47. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    Nicely translated BHiC,

    Maybe besides all the different language translation appps, there could be one for translating "text-speak". TeflonTom seems to know something about the game, he's probably just bored and having some fun.
     
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  48. Baxter

    Baxter Professional

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    That reminds me of the Barbara Billingsley scene in "Airplane".

    I had yet another let call controversy last night. Another USTA league doubles match. I was serving and thought the score was deuce, as did everybody else (seniors league, temps in the high nineties). I served and the returner smacked his return into the the top of the net. Right after his ball hit the tape he raised his hand and said "You just served to me, it's add out not deuce" I waited to see if everybody agreed and said OK, but according to the rules it's deuce now, not add out. That last point counted, even though I served it to the the wrong court." Our opponents argued that we should replay the point, which I know is wrong. We went with my ruling but when we ended up winning the game the returner called out,"Are you happy now?" He apologized after the match and he's usually a nice guy, but rule misunderstandings can be tough.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2012
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  49. CaldwellYSR

    CaldwellYSR Rookie

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    He was trying to get two bites at the apple there. I had pretty much the same thing happen to me (as the returner) where I was confused but played it anyways. it was interesting though because the serving team attempted to replay the point and I had to be the one to tell them the point counted and to continue playing the next one :p
     
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  50. Z-Man

    Z-Man Professional

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    l0v1ng th3 t3fl0nt0m d14l3ct.
     
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