Saints Bounty Program

Discussion in 'Odds & Ends' started by swfh, Mar 2, 2012.

  1. dennis10is

    dennis10is Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2005
    Messages:
    2,033
    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    NFL did the right thing

    I don't approve of blunt force trauma.

    The NFL should change the rules and allow each player to carry up to two tomahawks. They can slash and bash each other much more effectively.

    Remember the chase scene in "Last Mohicans", it would be cool to see an NFL running back, literally slashing through the defense. Or, see a QB "sacked" by a tomahawk embedded in his helmet.

    If a player dies, the opposing team can scalp him live. Awesome!
     
    #51
  2. r2473

    r2473 Legend

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2006
    Messages:
    7,007
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MapmxTJ6mvg&feature=player_embedded

    Luther Campbell pay-for-play allegations

    It’s one thing when your football team associates itself with any celebrity. But when it’s rap’s biggest bad boy at the time, of course it’s going to attract attention. What no one at the time knew was that Luther Campbell was doing more than being a fan in the early 1990s. He allegedly offered players bounties – $50 for a forced fumble or $100 for a sack. Even former players contributed money into a pot. According to a 1994 report in a South Florida paper, prior to the ’89 Miami-Notre Dame game, a pot had been collected by Campbell and former players. Whoever knocked Raghib “Rocket” Ismail out of the game with a clean hit got $1,000 while $1,500 went to the player who could knock out quarterback Tony Rice. You stay classy, Luther.
     
    #52
  3. Big_Dangerous

    Big_Dangerous Legend

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2010
    Messages:
    6,007
    Location:
    Houston, TX
    First of all you misspelled discern badly...

    Secondly, yes you absolutely can.

    This is a pre planned hit where the guy was obviously trying to cause an injury:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTLlaMY_9PM


    I'm not sure why I came in this thread. Leed's ignorance and downright stupidity is just painful to sift through. I just can't fathom how someone can be so senseless when it comes to this issue. It's okay to intentionally go out and hurt other players?? Really?!! Really?!

    Greg Williams will likely never work in the NFL again. Sean Payton was suspended for the year.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2012
    #53
  4. spaceman_spiff

    spaceman_spiff Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2005
    Messages:
    1,507
    Location:
    The crappest town in Britain
    I always love it when football players and fans act like tough guys. Why don't you try playing rugby?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcrxKULsaqA

    Oh, and when it comes to intentionally injuring your opponents, football isn't even up to the level of figure skaters. I mean, they go hard core with the pry bar to the legs. That's a man's game right there.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2012
    #54
  5. r2473

    r2473 Legend

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2006
    Messages:
    7,007
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6T09XWRkq5M

    If you want a tough sport, you should have tried to wrestle with the Iowa Hawkeye squad under Dan Gable. Makes rugby look like a childs game.

    This is an excerpt from a recent article. Trust me. They wrestled "harder" under Gable. It helps explain all the national championships........

    http://uncensoredwriting.blogspot.com/2011/03/why-everybody-hates-iowa-wrestling.html


    For people who follow wrestling a little bit closer, they might hate Iowa because they perceive Iowa as a dirty team. It's tough to say they aren't. They often give up points for unsportsmanlike conduct. At Nationals, they not only gave up match points for unsportsmanlike conduct, but lost two team points for behavior from their coach and one of their wrestler's.

    And if you're a hardcore wrestling fan, you probably look at Iowa as being a bunch of *******s. If you ever watch an interview where an Iowa wrestler wins a decision, the wrestler will act as if he did terrible and say that he should have been more aggressive and gotten bonus points. If he gets a major decision, he believes it should have been a tech fall. If he gets a tech fall, he believes he should have pinned the guy. And if he pins the guy, he says he should have done it quicker. No matter what Iowa achieves, they always want more. If a fan of another team sees an Iowa guy beat their guy, followed by the Iowa guy complaining about how he should have done better, I could see how that might irritate people.

    So Iowa wins all the time, they use questionable tactics, and winning isn't good enough for them, because they are always searching for annihilation. The three reasons that people hate Iowa are the three reasons that I love Iowa
     
    #55
  6. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2008
    Messages:
    36,318
    Location:
    East side of San Francisco Bay
    Big and Dangerous....
    OK, I saw the McMahon hit. It should get an ejection because it occured no where near the ball, and was deliberate AT THAT TIME.
    Now as it premedicated? Can you honestly make that judgement call? We know GB lineman were frustrated and pissed at Chicago. We know that! Now could that late hit be "spur of the moment" or "opportunistic"?
    I think it could have been.
    YOU make the call. If it really was premeditated and bounty hunting, shouldn't the whole GB defence be penalized?
    I think it was bad judgement by one pissed off GB lineman. And he should have been ejected from the game and fined some 50 G's.
     
    #56
  7. Dedans Penthouse

    Dedans Penthouse Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2004
    Messages:
    4,066
    Location:
    Antarctica
    Girls?

    You're really not very good at this, are you?
     
    #57
  8. Squall Leonheart

    Squall Leonheart Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2005
    Messages:
    223
    #58
  9. 813wilson

    813wilson Rookie

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2009
    Messages:
    322
    Location:
    Tampa area
    1) LeeD - how can one tell whether a hit is "premedicated, or not? No one has access to the GB lineman's medical records... :) (glad you changed it the 2nd time you used the word)

    2) Remember when tennis balls came in aluminum cans? I dated a girl, while in high school, who's father was a lineman for the Baltimore Colts. He used to tell us how he and his team mates would cut those cans - cut out the bottom and then make one cut length wise. They'd put them on their forearms and wrap them with tape. This way, they'd really have an impact when they tried the "head slap"....

    3) LT felt horrible about the result of his hit on Joe Theisman - watch his reaction.

    4) The bounty program is appalling for two reasons, for me. a) I'd have thought that players would have more mutual respect than to willfully try and injure. b) reward for injury may make players take shots they would not have taken previously. IE - "if I knock out ______ on this play. The 15 yard unsportsmanlike will feel better with a $10,000 bonus.

    At the end, the individual plays may be hard to define - but knowledge of a bounty reward system calls into question a whole bunch of Greg Williams history....
     
    #59
  10. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2008
    Messages:
    36,318
    Location:
    East side of San Francisco Bay
    As a JV Ltightend back around '64, MissionHighSchool in SanFrancisco would tape up the wrists of all their defensive lineman and plaster over the tape, and add a wrist sweatband (or not), over that.
    I got slapped soooo hard it knocked my helmet right off my head, bouncing from LTightEnd to the right sidelines (while attempting pass blocking). Immediately, our coach (former SF 49'er CB) protested, and the officials checked each D player's wrist cast, and only ONE had an actual injury, and he didn't play that game.
    Needless to say, their casts were cut off and we still managed to lose.
    Mission was forced to forfeit the rest of the season that year.
     
    #60
  11. Squall Leonheart

    Squall Leonheart Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2005
    Messages:
    223
    Cool story, but that's not really related to the topic at hand. Even so, your story agrees with the majority of the views here: the team that was 'bending the rules' gained an unfair advantage and was penalized for it, i.e. it was not ok.
     
    #61
  12. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2008
    Messages:
    36,318
    Location:
    East side of San Francisco Bay
    "not related"....
    Depends how you constitute "not related".....
    You just answered your own question.
    Topic 2, previous post, answers your questions.
     
    #62
  13. Squall Leonheart

    Squall Leonheart Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2005
    Messages:
    223
    I'm sorry, was this directed at me? I didn't ask any questions, but I don't know what you mean by 'topic two, previous post'. I have read through your previous posts, but I don't see what you are directing me towards, sorry.

    At any rate, I wouldn't equate a bounty system with putting plaster on peoples' hands. That's what I meant by not being related. Although you are correct in that both are in reference to advantages in sports.
     
    #63
  14. Squall Leonheart

    Squall Leonheart Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2005
    Messages:
    223
    Let me put it this way, your story is kinda related, but doesn't really have a strong connection to the current discussion.

    That's like if there was a topic about, for example, Novak winning the Australian Open and the someone says 'Oh, I won a high school national title match'. Yeah it has to do with tennis and the subject of winning, but it's a somewhat distant relation.
     
    #64
  15. Hitman99

    Hitman99 Rookie

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2012
    Messages:
    190
    Location:
    Annandale, VA
    I got plastered with a football player once. Didn't get fined or suspended either.

    Girls rules.....
     
    #65
  16. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2008
    Messages:
    36,318
    Location:
    East side of San Francisco Bay
    Squall Man...
    Read post 58, or 59, not mine. Line 2.
    I AM allowed to expound on subjects, aren't I? I didn't CREATE it.
     
    #66
  17. Squall Leonheart

    Squall Leonheart Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2005
    Messages:
    223
    I'm guessing you mean 813Wilson's post. In that case I suppose you were just following up on something someone else mentioned. Either way, we are getting away from the subject at hand, which is the Saints' bounty program.
     
    #67
  18. Squall Leonheart

    Squall Leonheart Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2005
    Messages:
    223
    It is rumored that some of the cases will be appealed. Supposedly Sean Payton is going to appeal his year long suspension. The NFL's investigation concluded that Payton lied to league investigators and instructed others in his staff to due the same. It is also reported that the General manager Micky Loomis plans to appeal his 8 month suspension, assistant head coach Joe Vitt his six game suspension, and the organization their $500,000 fine and loss of 2012 and 2013 second round draft picks.

    There may be more, there may be less: these are all just rumors right now.
     
    #68
  19. West Coast Ace

    West Coast Ace G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2005
    Messages:
    13,479
    Location:
    So Cal
    Back then the league wasn't getting sued by former players for head injuries and permanent disabilities.

    They were warned - they ignored the warnings - they got caught again - they lied - thus, the hammer had to come down hard. Can't wait to see which players get suspended and fined - they could have a case; e.g. "coach says 'do it', I just was following orders."
     
    #69
  20. volleygirl

    volleygirl Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2011
    Messages:
    404

    HAHA This isnt the military so I doubt that would work. Especially when there are so many examples of players doing the exact opposite of what the coach says to do nowadays.
     
    #70
  21. 813wilson

    813wilson Rookie

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2009
    Messages:
    322
    Location:
    Tampa area
    I would think Greg Williams' defense of this tape is going to be "hard core speaking" to pump up his guys. But, specifically referencing taking out an ACL?

    This is getting interesting.....

    http://theusof.com
     
    #71
  22. volleygirl

    volleygirl Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2011
    Messages:
    404

    These Saints wanted an appeal. If these audio tapes released today are new evidence for Goddell, I hope he doubles their suspensions since they wanted a dam appeal.
     
    #72
  23. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2008
    Messages:
    36,318
    Location:
    East side of San Francisco Bay
    After Greg's speech went public....
    He deserves to be banned from the NFL.
    You can extoll hard hitting and crushing the player with the ball, but you can never ask for a player to HURT another player.
    Yes, hitting hard hurts, but there's a difference between hard nosed hitting and totally deliberately taking out a player aiming for a specific body part and then rewarding them for it.
    Hard hit and reward, yes.
    Trying to curtail a career and reward, no.
     
    #73
  24. r2473

    r2473 Legend

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2006
    Messages:
    7,007
    "There are three things you don’t want to see being made—sausage, legislation, and professional football players."
     
    #74
  25. Squall Leonheart

    Squall Leonheart Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2005
    Messages:
    223
    LeeD, I don't mean to argue, but what did you think this whole discussion was about? Mostly everyone here agreed that hard hitting is fine, but intent to injure is out of line. The whole conversation has been about intentionally trying to injure other players.
     
    #75
  26. Andyroddickfan

    Andyroddickfan Rookie

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2010
    Messages:
    382
    Today on tsn they played an audio clip before the niners game. Greg was saying some sick stuff. Kill the players head, kill the head and the body will die, take out his knee, try and take out vernons ankles. Who the hell says to kill a players head? That guy needs some serious help.
    Edit, so after listening to these espn "experts" they seem to think that he is referring to the head as the team, and frank gore is the head. So if you limit or hurt frank gore the team (the body will fall). I can see their point, but after hearing it over and over I seriously didnt understand it like that. Most of the stuff I was fine with. But singling out players, and I think the players heads is crossing the line.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2012
    #76
  27. Yourtenniscoach

    Yourtenniscoach Banned

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2011
    Messages:
    324
    Gregg Williams will never coach in the NFL again.
     
    #77
  28. RollTrackTake

    RollTrackTake Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2012
    Messages:
    690
    Location:
    The Grindhouse
    Football is a contact sport. Players get injured one way or another. I do think it is reprehensible that people get a bonus to specifically injury a guy. However, injuries are inherent to the nature of the game. defensive linemen are still going to try & hit QB's & running backs as hard as they can. As long as it falls within the rules I'm fine by that.
     
    #78
  29. Squall Leonheart

    Squall Leonheart Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2005
    Messages:
    223
    Saints bounty penalties have been upheld. Personally, I agree with all the things handed out so far. Just waiting to see how the players are handled.
     
    #79
  30. DANMAN

    DANMAN Professional

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2004
    Messages:
    1,100
    Die hard Saints fan here. Fully agree with all the penalties. Absolutely ridiculous that this speech was given. I'm sure it happens elsewhere, but my hope is that this scandal and all the penalties will prevent it everywhere.
     
    #80
  31. NickC

    NickC Professional

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2007
    Messages:
    1,436
    Location:
    East Coast, USA. Formally Tucson, AZ
    You're right, they're still going to go out and try to hit them as hard as possible, but now they don't have an economic incentive to break an opposing player's neck on purpose.
     
    #81
  32. Anon_

    Anon_ Guest

    Why are you changing your mind all of the sudden? How fickle. Before you didn't see any problems with the bounties, but now you don't like what Williams said? It sounds to me like you didn't mind what he said, but you didn't like the way he said it... And you were calling others girls...
     
    #82
  33. Squall Leonheart

    Squall Leonheart Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2005
    Messages:
    223
    The NFL suspended four current and former Saints players for their involvement in the bounty scandal:
    - Saints linebacker and defensive captain Jonathan Vilma for the entire 2012 NFL season.
    - Former Saints defensive tackle Anthony Hargrove (now with the Green Bay Packers) for eight games.
    - Saints defensive end Will Smith for four games.
    - Former Saints linebacker Scott Fujita (now with the Cleveland Browns) for three games.
     
    #83
  34. Hitman99

    Hitman99 Rookie

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2012
    Messages:
    190
    Location:
    Annandale, VA
    Have to admit that I never thought the punishments would be so severe. I thought Williams would get a year's suspension, now it's "indefinite". One owner, two coaches, four players --- all with pretty severe fines, suspensions, assorted penalties. Kudos to Goodell.
     
    #84
  35. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2008
    Messages:
    36,318
    Location:
    East side of San Francisco Bay
    Anon, you use selective memory as your weapon of choice here....
    I said it's OK to give kudos, stars, and cash for hard hits. I still say that.
    But it's NOT OK to list each opponent's target area weakensses, to tell for example, his players to target KyleWilliam's head, since he had prior concussions, or to target Gore's right knee, which was prevously injured.
    If you can't tell the difference, you are hopeless.
     
    #85
  36. Anon_

    Anon_ Guest

    So, yeah, intent to injure is ok...

    bounties are ok too...

    bounties don't matter because the monetary payoff isn't that great (even though you yourself just claimed that "knockouts" win games)...

    Whoa, what happened here? sounds like someone changed their mind because they didn't like how it was said...
     
    #86
  37. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2008
    Messages:
    36,318
    Location:
    East side of San Francisco Bay
    Anon, is that you spouting off the top of your head again?
    Look at the dates!
    Gregs speech went public about two weeks after my first few posts. Look at the dates.
     
    #87
  38. Anon_

    Anon_ Guest

    So you're agreeing with me? You thought bounties were ok until two weeks later when someone said something in a way that you didn't like.
     
    #88
  39. Squall Leonheart

    Squall Leonheart Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2005
    Messages:
    223
    I don't mean to get in the middle of this, but can we please cut the drama?
     
    #89
  40. Anon_

    Anon_ Guest

    ask the "girl"
     
    #90
  41. Squall Leonheart

    Squall Leonheart Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2005
    Messages:
    223
    I guess not...
     
    #91
  42. Squall Leonheart

    Squall Leonheart Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2005
    Messages:
    223
    Supposedly the players plan to appeal their fines. I don't expect anything to come of this.
     
    #92
  43. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2008
    Messages:
    36,318
    Location:
    East side of San Francisco Bay
    Well, there is the idea that Goodell manages off the field stuff, and the NFL Player's Union is in charge of "on the field" affairs.
    Now this subject broach's both fields, hence the appeal.
     
    #93
  44. Squall Leonheart

    Squall Leonheart Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2005
    Messages:
    223
    The players have submitted appeals for their penalties. Note that if upheld, Hagrove's 8 game suspension and Vilma's season long suspension are the two longest suspensions for an on-field incident in recent NFL history.
     
    #94
  45. RollTrackTake

    RollTrackTake Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2012
    Messages:
    690
    Location:
    The Grindhouse
    True. If the suspensions are upheld I would assume at least Vilma will take this to court. It will be interesting to see the arguments each side presents. I know a bunch of guys on this board are lawyers. Wonder if any of them could chime in with some legal insight. Just seems to me there would have to be a mountain of evidence against Vilma to uphold such a suspension.
     
    #95
  46. tennis_ocd

    tennis_ocd Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2011
    Messages:
    2,002
    What rule did they break?
     
    #96
  47. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2008
    Messages:
    36,318
    Location:
    East side of San Francisco Bay
    Sportsmanship and ethics.
     
    #97
  48. RollTrackTake

    RollTrackTake Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2012
    Messages:
    690
    Location:
    The Grindhouse
    My thoughts exactly. Unless they went beyond the scope of the rules how are they guilty of anything but moral bankruptcy? I do believe there is a morality clause in every players contract however.
     
    #98
  49. Hitman99

    Hitman99 Rookie

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2012
    Messages:
    190
    Location:
    Annandale, VA
    Actually, they broke several league rules, most of which were part of the agreements reached between the league and the players' union. There are specific rules to guarantee player safety, as well as others to promote competitive integrity. Also, the collective bargaining agreement provides very strict rules about player compensation. Teams are allowed to provide incentive bonuses to players for achieving statistical milestones, such as yards gained or number of games played, or for being selected to the Pro Bowl. Teams are not allowed to compensate players for individual plays, games, or one-time achievements. Players are not allowed to pay other players for their accomplishments.

    All of this has been covered by the press in exhaustive detail.
     
    #99
  50. tennis_ocd

    tennis_ocd Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2011
    Messages:
    2,002
    Can players get helmet "stars" for a good play? Better compensation for being a hard-hitting linebacker?? Can a QB take pick up the dinner tab for his offensive line after a good game???

    It's the NFL. Within the boundaries of on field rules, every player is hitting the other as hard as he possibly can.

    Addressing under "ethics" may be appropriate.... but still, imo, the nfl blew this all out of proportion.
     

Share This Page