Sampras' rivals. Who beat him?

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by GS, Aug 17, 2011.

  1. fed_rulz

    fed_rulz Hall of Fame

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    weren't you the one who made a sweeping statement that "anyone with Fed in their names seems to only make schoolboy arguments"? how is that for generalization?
     
  2. Laurie

    Laurie Professional

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    I understand, we all get worked up. I just think we can do that without those daft phrases that are all too easy to use and I personally find frustrating and irritating.

    Cheers
     
  3. Laurie

    Laurie Professional

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    Indeed, last week it was a valid point because I think you guys can get carried away and overdo it trying to make a point we've actually read over and over again for the past 3 years, especially phrases like tards, fanboys, worshippers etc they are most irritating phrases to read over and over again on a daily basis.

    It would be good to get beyond that now, don't you think? I'm sure you can put your point across in future without using those phrases.
     
  4. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    well , sampras did break multiple times on occasions when he was playing really well ...
     
  5. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    only 4-5 matches that I stated had a TB ... and only one match where federer lost a set ....

    wasn't the 2000 USO semi vs hewit a competitive one with all 3 sets being close ?

    the davydenko match in 2006 @ the AO was a close one, not the one @ the USO ..

    quite a few matches that I could add to the list fulfilling the same criteria (dominant performances ):

    murray TMC 2010 RR
    roddick bangkok 2004 F
    henman USO 2004 SF
    ferrero AO 2004 SF
    moya RG 2005 4R
    ljubicic IW 2006 Qf
    blake IW 2006 F
    gonzalez madrid 2006 F
    soderling RG 2009 F
    nalbandian TMC 2003 RR
    ferrero TMC 2003 RR
    berdych RG 2006 3R
    ancic RG 2006 4R
    ferrer MC 2006 3r
    gonzalez MC 2006 4R
    soderling shanghai 2010 Sf
    tsonga USO 2011 QF
    del potro IW 2012
    gasquet madrid 2012
    tipsarevic madrid 2012 SF
    soderling USO 2010 QF
    wawrinka AO 2011 QF


    then tournaments like halle 2004, doha 2005, halle 2008 etc where he didn't lose a set, drop serve, didn't even go to TB etc ...

    just way too many dominant performances ...

    I don't think the numbers being lesser for sampras has that much to do with TV as much as federer putting in quite a few more dominant performances ...
     
  6. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    well, yes and no ... at their best, they are similar in some ways ...they do try to blast their opponent away with serve/FH and or serve/volley combos and try to dictate with their FHs ...

    but the difference comes in returning , defense, passing and mixing up the play ..... federer simply gets quite a few more returns back ....while he can play quick strike tennis like sampras ( though doesn't do it as much and not nearly as well given his serve isn't as good & surfaces have been slowed down), he constructs points better when required and can defend on and on for quite some time ......

    not the case with sampras, he could do some incredible gets and turn defense into offense with one shot, but not for a sustained amount of time in a rally , which would be required against elite defenders ...

    as far as sampras' speed/movement is concerned, it was very good, his speed was among the very best, but movement by itself was a notch below the very best ... in this generation alone, there are plenty who match/surpass him in that regard : federer, nadal, djoker, murray, hewitt, davydenko, ferrer,simon
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2012
  7. helloworld

    helloworld Hall of Fame

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    While Federer may be the better defender, Sampras' serve is a much bigger weapon, and thus negates all advantages that Federer may have. A lot of guys in the 90s could defend better than Sampras, but all their strengths were taken away because of Sampras' serve. Just look at the difference between their serves at Wimbledon or even the exhibitions a couple years back. The difference is huge.
     
  8. Feather

    Feather Hall of Fame

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    If you mean peak to peak, Sampras is NOT gonna thrash Federer. Stop living in fantassy world
     
  9. Laurie

    Laurie Professional

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    Come on, you’re playing a numbers game here. We are grown ups, not teenagers trying to out do each other ;) You must have prepared a list this time :p

    In more seriousness, believe it, there is a lot more tennis on television today than in the 1990s. It is entirely logical, digital television allowed providers and broadcasters to provide a lot more channels in a bouquet using the same bandwith as one analogue channel, that is a fact as we know. Consequently, more sports channels popped up and we had the possibility to see a lot more tournaments, the sort of tournaments we wouldn’t have seen before and especially earlier round matches. There was no "Tennis Channel" in the 1990s, no Supertennis channel (Italian channel, shows lots of live tournaments like Dubai, Doha, Basel etc and archive footage in HD).

    Sampras won tournaments in Japan and Hong Kong on multiple occasions, I have never seen a single match on television or archived. Those are the sorts of tournaments that will be shown today. Consequently, he could have played some dominant matches there which are simply not documented.

    And I won’t list matches I actually haven’t seen. By all accounts he thrashed Agassi in the 1996 ATP championships 6-3 6-1 or something where he played great but I won’t list it because I haven’t seen it. And then I heard in the 1993 ATP semi, he thrashed Medvedev with incredible tennis, again I wont list it, I’ve always wanted to see it, I believe he did one point where he served, return came low and he hit a through the legs winner volley, the sort of play which would guarantee lots of youtube hits if anyone has a video of it.

    Then there is the match I got by chance a few years ago from an Italian archivist where Sampras thrashed Henman 6-0 6-3 in less than an hour in Vienna in the quarterfinal in 1998. Luckily that match was on Italian television, I put it on youtube two years ago. There are plenty more matches like that I’m sure, don’t forget he played just under 1000 matches.

    On the 2000 semifinal, its true the scoreline was close, he should have won much more emphatically, he had loads of breakpoint opportunities throughout the match he didn’t take but was always in control of the match, even when he got broke in the 3rd set, he broke back two games later.
     
  10. Laurie

    Laurie Professional

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    Regarding movement, players like Simon and Davydenko have great movement obviously but it is not enough to win loads of tournaments, its one of the facets needed. And of course slower surfaces does help those with better movement to retrieve more and more often.

    And looking at other things, Murray doesn’t have the game to dominate yet either. He has great defence, but his forehand is not versatile enough. For instance, Murray’s mentor, Lendl had a forehand which was passed through to Sampras, Courier, Agassi, then through to Federer and Nadal, which was to camp on the backhand side looking to hit inside out and inside in forehands (down the line). Murray simply has not developed this facility.

    Oh yes, the other thing I wanted to mention is the Sampras return and passing shots showed his great movement. Movement is not just about running down 20 shots, and remember there are many different factors that determine good movement.

    Here’s three good examples of Sampras’ movement – enjoy

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rF_cL1NbIKs

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnUZtuOGKUA

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFiOslvMvXY
     
  11. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    Eh, so was Fed, he didn't even finish the year in the top 10 and it took him 2 whole years to reach the QF stage in a slam again.
     
  12. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Neither one were exactly at their peaks. I felt for evaluation purposes the match was worthless. Both were inconsistent in those days.

    I checked Sampras' record the next year in 2002 and before he won the US Open he was 20-17. Obviously he finished up with a record for the year of 27-17. Still not great by Pete Sampras standards.
     
  13. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    yeah, I only recalled some of them on top of my head for this 2nd list ... others I did go through the list of matches played ...

    except only 4-5 matches amongst those I listed were from smaller tournaments like doha,basel, dubai etc..... rest 45-50 of them were all from grand slams , TMCs and master series tournaments ......

    regarding the medvedev match @ TMC 93, you mean this ? :)

    not between the legs, but from behind them ....... good one, but I've seen plenty of shots better , including from sampras himself ...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvMdBJccWLo


    yeah, but still not a dominant performance, is it ?
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2012
  14. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    that 2001 wimbledon match b/w fed and sampras was a pretty good one ..... more than decent quality one ....granted sampras was off his peak in 2001, but he did play well here, and federer played well above his age as well ...

    of course it wasn't the passing of the torch or some nonsense like that, but still a pretty good match ( though they both made some silly mistakes they probably wouldn't at their peaks )
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2012
  15. Laurie

    Laurie Professional

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    Thanks for that ABMK, interesting shot!

    I am sure he did a tweener serve and volley point indoors once, maybe not that match then.
     
  16. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    Yes, but you only mentioned Sampras not being at his peak.

    More or less agree, it was an entertaining match but as Abmk said not passing of the torch or anything and one match is too small of a sample size anyway.

    That said, their 2007 (I think, not sure the exact year) exos are even more worthless (by a good margin) yet people love using them as proof of Pete's supposed superiority.

    Right, and finishing the year outside of the top 10 (in 2001) or failing to get past the 4th round in slams (in 2002) is not great for the standards of a player who holds a record (let's say an Open Era record) for the # of weeks spent at #1 and who holds a record slam SF streak (along with holding the Open Era record for the # of slam titles).
     
  17. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Zagor,

    Happy Holidays my friend.
     
  18. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    Same to you mate.

    I enjoyed our recent discussions, I hope we're in for a great tennis year in 2013.
     
  19. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    yeah, obviously, their overall games are not as good as sampras' , but I was only talking about movement ......

    yeah, movement is not just about running down 20 shots, that's why I said sampras was an excellent mover .....just that he was a notch below the guys I mentioned, they could also run down balls again and again .....

    regarding passing and returning , sampras was good @ returning and passing .... but federer is simply quite a bit better at those ...

    many of those passing shots are just "very good" ones .....the kind that federer used to pull off routinely at his peak, on the rise BH DTL and CC passes, on the rise FH CC and DTL passes ...

    now these are the type that are really "amazing"

    federer vs djokovic passing shot french open 2011

    federer vs agassi dubai 2005 amazing point

    vs hewitt @ USO 2004

    point starting @ 3:14

    now this is one amazing passing shot from sampras

    vs agassi @ AO 2000
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2012
  20. fed_rulz

    fed_rulz Hall of Fame

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    not disputing that. just stating that federer is likely to break the opponent more often (and deliver a bagel :) )

    take the list of matches that you and laurie have listed, and just compare the scores. I'm confident that Federer would be the one that has more emphatic wins (differential in games, sets, points etc).
     
  21. Laurie

    Laurie Professional

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    There you guys go again turning everything into a contest :)

    Let's just enjoy the tennis now. Happy Holidays :cool:
     
  22. fed_rulz

    fed_rulz Hall of Fame

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    guilty as charged :)

    happy holidays!
     
  23. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Same to you fed ruiz. Just keep beating up on me to keep me on my toes. :)
    Happy Holidays.
     
  24. fed_rulz

    fed_rulz Hall of Fame

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    Happy holidays to you too pc1 :)
     

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