Sean Hannity Vs Usta

Discussion in 'Junior League & Tournament Talk' started by HIGH-TECH TENNIS, Jun 26, 2012.

  1. decades

    decades Guest

    another rich parent worried that his privileged kids will be left behind by the change of rules. only this one has a megaphone.
     
  2. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    Troll statement!
     
  3. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    Agree with perspective 2, but not with #1.


    Every match is important.

    When playing easy win (during tournament), good time to work/strengthen weak shots/strategy.
    Sometimes it's not so easy to defeat kid that is playing with no pressure.
    When coming into tournament not ready, early rounds are good for working into match shape.
    All major tournaments are 1 week in length, (even in college and pros) have to get use to playing match play everyday.

    Not a fan of Hannity, but lets remember that his show is just "entertainment".
     
  4. kme5150

    kme5150 Rookie

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    His #833 ranking might be right on target, you never know. He is a 2 star. The next lower person from that section is ranked over 650 spots higher than him nationally and is a 4 star.

    Some sections have high level tournaments the same time as the National tournaments. This can skew the numbers because a player might have a high sectional ranking and not be nearly as good at the player playing the National tournaments.

    The player met the requirements for entry into the tournament so he has every right to play. I am not knocking the player, just the system.

    The only good thing I think about making the draws 128 is that the seeds and the lucky 32 don't get a bye the first round.
     
  5. 10ismom

    10ismom Semi-Pro

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    What I saw in some tournaments is seeds do not have to play till later rounds. That might be a good compromise.
    The 32 hot shots's family don't have to waste the money, time during the first 2-3 rounds,....just let the others battle first.
     
  6. 10ismom

    10ismom Semi-Pro

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    .....sorry, double posted
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2012
  7. kme5150

    kme5150 Rookie

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    I was for making it a 256 draw instead of the 192. I still don't understand why the Supers are going to take a week to play when they knock them down to a 128. Our 128 draws are done in 4 days and that is with full sets in doubles.
     
  8. MomTennis

    MomTennis New User

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    Also remember that this year the national rankings are skewed because the USTA changed the point values for all national tournament wins as of January 1 - on a rolling calendar a player who got a majority of his/her points in the latter half of 2011 will have a distinct advantage in points and ranking over the kid that got his/her points in 2012 - for some kids it is a difference of 50 points a match!
    Kids are being picked for the national tournaments on how well they did in that age group last year while kids who are doing well now are being passed over.
     
  9. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

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    What does "our" refer to in this sentence?
     
  10. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

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    The real question to me is: In the current large (192) draws, how many matches are competitive in the early rounds?

    I decided to define "competitive" as the loser winning at least 7 games. I made one exception for a match that was 6-0, 7-6, and another exception for a 6-0, 4-6, 6-0 match in a later round (see seed results later in this post); those is a tense situation for the winner, so it seems like a competitive experience to me even though only six games were won by the loser. So, the worst a match could be was 6-4, 6-3, or 7-5, 6-2, and still be considered competitive.

    I applied this criteria to first round matches in the Boys' 18s at the National Clay Courts, which are still going on as we discuss this. The pattern in the top half of the draw was pretty consistent: Slightly less than half of the first round matches were competitive (18 non-competitive, 14 competitive). On the surface, that means to me that there is no burning need to get rid of the first round and make it a 128 draw, much less to make it a 64 or 32 draw.

    However, there is another perspective. None of the 32 seeds were involved in these matches. The unseeded players can have competitive matches with each other at L2 and L3 nationals; they don't need to be allowed into L1 nationals in order to have development and growth opportunities. So, the second important question is: At what point do the 32 seeds start having competitive matches?

    By seed group, the round at which the first "competitive" match occurred was:

    1-8 seeds: R32, R32, R64, R32(loss), R64(loss), R128, R16(loss), R32 (then R16 loss)

    9-16 seeds: R128(loss), R64, R128(then R64 loss), R128(then R32 upset loss), R32, R128(then R32 loss), R128(loss), R64

    17 seeds: R64(loss), R64(loss), R128, R16(upset higher seed), R128(loss), R128(loss), R32(upset higher seed), R128, R128, R128(loss), R32(upset higher seed and again in R16), R64(then R32 loss), R64(loss), R128, R64(loss)

    It appears that one section was missing a 17 seed due to withdrawal.

    It does not appear to me that seeds have to wait very long to get good matches. I also don't think that anyone is missing school in July. So, that leaves only the hotel costs as justifications for smaller draws at L1 nationals held in summer.
     
  11. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

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    Another question: Did any unseeded players have good runs and/or wins over seeds that might elevate their college recruiting status? These would be players who would be excluded entirely from a 32 draw.

    The answer: check out the draw and look at players 19, 32, 75, 87, 91, 145, 153, 165, 206, 212, and 244. That's eleven guys who had a really memorable tournament as unseeded players and would not even be there in a 32 draw.
     
  12. chalkflewup

    chalkflewup Hall of Fame

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    I believe "our " refers to those tournaments in his/her section.
     
  13. Alohajrtennis

    Alohajrtennis Semi-Pro

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    Great analysis Clark.

    For the "uncompetitive matches", did you consider the ranks in the respective players ? i.e, maybe a lower ranked player beat a higher ranked player 6-0, 6-0, so while the match would be considered "not competitive", maybe it was "not competitive" in a way the ranks, and admission to the tournament, didn't foresee?
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2012
  14. kme5150

    kme5150 Rookie

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    That is it. Thanks Chalk
     
  15. kme5150

    kme5150 Rookie

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    That is very true.
     
  16. kme5150

    kme5150 Rookie

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    Great observation. The problem is the JCC has their own agenda and they try to come up with excuses of why they want to do something without thoroughly thinking it through.
     
  17. coaching32yrs

    coaching32yrs Semi-Pro

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    One of the USTA's counterpoints to your excellent analysis is that the Clay Courts are not drawing the best American juniors. Thus the seeds in many cases are not the best juniors out there. Hence the matches tend to be more competitive. In the example you cite, only 2 of the top 8 boys 18's are playing the tournamnent. And 4 of the top 12. No matter where you stand on this issue the tournament is, in reality, not a National Championship if 8 of the top 12 do not play. By making the tournament smaller they are trying to attract the top players.
     
  18. Mitch Bridge

    Mitch Bridge Rookie

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    Supernational hardcourts boy's 14s in San Antonio. Waiting list player. I have been there twice and all spots haven't been filled after exhausting the wait lists. A 128 draw is probably sufficient in this case.
     
  19. Mitch Bridge

    Mitch Bridge Rookie

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    If the top US players are playing ITFs and Futures events, it is not a priority to play the clays. Give a main draw wildcard into a US 250 level ATP/WTA tournament later in the year and interest will grow among the US elite. Making 64 players miss an opportunity to play because of 3-6 top players passing on the event possibly because the draws are too big is not smart for overall US junior development.
     
  20. kme5150

    kme5150 Rookie

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    Filling the draws in the lower age groups seems to be a problem. I remember onsite alternates getting into San Antonio years ago. I thought San Antonio was great. The problem comes in the 18s where everybody wants in.
     
  21. coaching32yrs

    coaching32yrs Semi-Pro

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    The 256 player draw in the boys 18's Clay Court Nationals did not come close to filling.
     
  22. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

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    You could even have an arrangement with several tournament directors: Winner gets a main draw wild card into a Challenger (more realistic chance at a first round win than an ATP 250), finalist gets a main draw wild card into a Futures, and so do the semifinalists, or something like that. That way, players know they do not have to be the one guy to win the whole tourney in order to get something special out of it.
     
  23. kme5150

    kme5150 Rookie

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    I don't think making the draws smaller is going to help Clays attract the top players at all. Top players who do not play on clay all the time don't want to waste their time. Even the USTA PD Boca's top players like Spencer Papa and Michael Redlicki are not playing Clays this week.

    There is a very easy solution for the 3 Supers that are not drawing the higher talent. Give the winners a Futures, Challenger, or even an ATP main draw wildcard. Now if that wouldn't be enough incentive to play then I don't know what would. Do they honestly think Jack Sock would have signed up for Kzoo last year for any other reason than to get the US Open Wildcard? Do they think Alexios Halebian is signed up this year for any other reason?
     
  24. kme5150

    kme5150 Rookie

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    I like your thinking. I didn't see your post until after I had sent mine. Sorry about that.

    The tiered system would work great. You could also give the consolation champion a wilcard into a futures event and you wouldn't see so many of these guys defaulting in the back draw.
     
  25. tennisforlife77

    tennisforlife77 Rookie

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    After coaching for 32 years i assume you would have figured out that the 18's clays are a 192 draw not 256 and there are always 64 1st rounds byes. In fact there were around 70 kids on the waiting list
     
  26. hound 109

    hound 109 Rookie

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    I pretty much agree with this. (although for the really great ones, it probably doesn't matter what their birthdate is)

    Many feel the SuperNats draws should be greatly reduced (& starting 2014, all but two of them WILL be greatly reduced). They'll be whacking them down from 4 a year to 2 a year. One in mid/late July & the other 2 weeks later in early August. So the lowly 5 star born in Sept is definitely at an advantage over the lowly 5 star born 9 months later. (note - I say lowly because because starting in 2014 four of the six L1s will exclude ALL 5 stars & most blue chips.... since they'll have 16 draws, so the only L1s a 5 star can play are the two tourneys less than 3 weeks apart)

    Personally, I think July & early August is TOO damn crowded as it is. I think they should move the Clay from July to March or April (& call it the Easter Bowl or whatever) & keep it at 198 (or 256) for 16s & 18s..... (128 for 14s & 64 or 96 for 12s).

    Keep the hard courts just as it is with the draws i mention above. AND keep the darn WinterNationals as they are (with the draws mentioned above).

    Let the chosen ones have their 3-4 times a year "Draws of 16s tea parties" (masters or sweet sixteen or whatever). But also leave us the Spring, Summer & Winter SuperNat tournaments so the riff raff can attend a SuperNat during non-school time (all of us get Xmas week off & most of us get a Spring Break.....spread out throughout the year & so the 5 stars & high level 4 stars can try to show their stuff (and at different times of year). & who knows a few of them may show they belong at those exclusive tea parties?

    .
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2012
  27. hound 109

    hound 109 Rookie

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    Excellent post & thanks for the research.

    Sure looks like alot of seeds are getting pushed around or beaten outright in the second & third rounds. This data would suggest a draw of less than 128 would be excluding some kids who are able to make some noise (maybe our next Chang, Solomon or Gilbert?)
     
  28. hound 109

    hound 109 Rookie

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    But FWIW, there ARE over 50 kids on the (current) alternate list for the San Antonio Tourney in two weeks. & I agree that 128 is probably ok for 14s.

    But if 10 guys pull out & don't show up.....& only 8 alternates had the means to travel to the site & get plugged in (leaving two vacancies).....one shouldn't come to the conclusion that we should whack down the draw because there are two vacancies.

    & I'm sure that's how the occasional low ranked kid (that the good Dr. likes to cherry pick) possibly gets into a SuperNat. He's either a local kid or a little brother of a big dog & the TD plugs them in because he has a warm body & the TD picks up an extra $150. (who cares.....the TD gets some extra scratch & the scruffy little brother gets a learning experience?)
     
  29. Alohajrtennis

    Alohajrtennis Semi-Pro

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    In the 14's and 12's, I believe :

    1) there is a higher likelihood of the kids dropping out

    2) Fewer players think its wort it, or are able to go to the event, or be in a position to drop everything to go to the event on a moments notice, on the hope of a spot opening up

    So, I think for these events the draws will fill up, but the waiting lists will be smaller, and there will commonly be situations where a local player whose ready t go senaks in with a low rank
     
  30. YesImSerious

    YesImSerious New User

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    Current situation right now- Girls 16's National Hardcourts in Va Beach. In the finals is a NON-SEEDED player ranked 14 in her section( 98 nationally). Would she even get in the tournament under the future system?
     
  31. YesImSerious

    YesImSerious New User

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    * edit- Clay Courts- not hardcourts!
     
  32. tball2day

    tball2day Semi-Pro

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    ......................
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2012
  33. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    Readers, you can easily make your own judgment about whether it is worthwhile to showcase at Clays. Here is the list of colleges with coaches present at this year's boys 18/16 Clay Courts.

    Brigham Young University
    Brown University
    Bryant University
    Carnegie Mellon University
    Case Western Reserve University
    Cleveland State University
    Colgate University
    Columbia University
    Cornell University
    Dartmouth College
    Davidson College
    DePaul University
    Duke University
    East Carolina University
    Florida Atlantic University
    Florida State University
    Fresno Pacific University
    Georgia Southern University
    Georgia Institute of Technology
    Harvard University
    Hesston College
    Illinois State University
    Indiana Purdue Fort Wayne
    Indiana University
    Kenyon College
    Lafayette College
    Liberty University
    Lynn University
    Mississippi State University
    Northwestern University
    Notre Dame
    Ohio Dominican University
    Pepperdine University
    Presbyterian College
    Princeton University
    Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute
    Rice University
    Samford University
    Skidmore College
    St. Francis University
    St. Bonaventure University
    Texas Christian University
    Tufts University
    Tulane University
    U.S Military Academy at West Point
    U.S Naval Academy
    University of Alabama
    University of Arkansas
    University of Central Florida
    University of Connecticut
    University of Chicago
    University of Louisiana
    University of Louisville
    University of Maryland
    University of Miami
    University of Michigan
    University of North Carolina
    University of North Carolina Wilmington
    University of Oregon
    University of San Diego
    University of South Carolina
    University of Southern Mississippi
    University of Texas
    University of Texas San Antonio
    University of Virginia
    University of Wisconsin
    Vanderbilt University
    Vassar College
    Villanova University
    Virginia Tech
    The College of William and Mary
    Wake Forest University
    Washington and Lee University
    Winthrop University
    Wofford College
    Yale University
    Yeshiva University

    http://www.yellowtennisball.com/online2/college-expo.html
     
  34. tennis_tater

    tennis_tater Semi-Pro

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    Pretty sure Michael Redlicki was already playing a Futures this week.
     
  35. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    Are you talking about the 18's clay courts?

    Our experience was many coaches from the eastern half of the country were there. (Our friends daughter was recruited by Harvard at the clay courts.)

    Though coaches do care about "results" during the tournament, the kids they are recruiting have been on their radar already.
     
  36. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    Here is the list for 2011 Girls 18 Clay Courts

    Abilene Christian University

    Alabama, University of

    Alabama Birmingham, University of

    Arkansas, University of

    Army

    Ball State University

    Boston University

    Brown University

    Carleton College

    Carnegie Mellon University

    Central Florida, University of

    Chicago, University of

    Cincinnati, University of

    Colgate University

    College of Charleston

    Colorado at Boudler, University of

    Columbia University

    Cornell University

    Dartmouth College

    Davidson College

    Drake University

    East Carolina University

    Emory University

    Gardner Webb University

    George Washington University

    Howard University

    Illinois, University of

    Indiana Universtiy Purdue University Fort Wayne

    James Madison University

    Liberty University

    Lipscomb University

    Louisiana at Lafayette, University of

    Louisiana State University

    Loyola Marymount

    Marquette University

    Marshall University

    Memphis, University of

    Miami University (Ohio)

    Minnesota, University of

    Mississippi, University of

    Missouri, University of

    Nebraska, University of

    Norfolk State University

    North Carolina A & T State University

    North Carolina State University

    NOVA Southeastern University

    Ohio State University

    Oklahoma, University of

    Oregon, University of

    Penn State University

    Richmond, University of

    Rutgers University

    Santa Clara University

    San Diego State University

    Seton Hall

    Southern Mississippi

    Southern University

    Tennessee at Chattanooga, University of

    United States Military Academy

    U.S. Naval Academy

    Virginia Tech University

    Wake Forest University

    Washington and Lee University

    Washington University in St. Louis

    Wellesley College

    Wisconsin, University of

    Wichita State University

    Wyoming University

    http://www.rcofmemphis.com/girls18/schools.htm
     
  37. mctennis

    mctennis Hall of Fame

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    I agree with Sean Hannity on this issue. The USTA is a monopoly and you either join our organization or don't play.I belonged to the USTA only two times in my life. Once was because you HAD to join t be in this local club tennis league. ( like ay of us were ever going to be in the regionals , haha) The second time was because they had a cheap offer plus you received a hat and a duffle bag as well. They are bloated with upper management and have no conception of the " little people" that play day in and day out. No of all the time involved with the parents taking their children to practice, tournaments, doctor visits ( for injuries), up late doing homework with them, etc.. The USTA is out of touch with what makes a great tennis system work. They spend millions on useless programs with little or no results. I wish there was another tennis organization here in the USA. They ( the USTA) are too big and their tentacles reach into every state so you are powerless to do anything against them. Plus they would not recognize the other organization so those players would not be allowed into any of the USTA events.
     
  38. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

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    What does "already" mean here? Redlicki made a decision to play a Futures that conflicts with the Clay Courts. That's the point. The very top players do not make the Clay Court tourney a priority.
     
  39. HIGH-TECH TENNIS

    HIGH-TECH TENNIS Rookie

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    Tennis is our business and obviously this topic is of great interest to us but doubt anything will change, though the overall conclusion seems to be that the USTA is out of touch. So what next?
     
  40. tball2day

    tball2day Semi-Pro

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    .........................
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2012
  41. kme5150

    kme5150 Rookie

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    Martin Redlicki played, not Michael. Michael played the Futures.
     
  42. tball2day

    tball2day Semi-Pro

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    ..........................
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2012
  43. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    At least I agree with part of your post
     
  44. tball2day

    tball2day Semi-Pro

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    ..........................
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2012
  45. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    Saying "At least I agree with part of your post" is defensive or argumentative? OK, whatever

    As someone else here recently said, "Kettle meet pot".

    You have posted opinion, some of which I agree with, some of which I don't. That's fine. I have posted facts....the lists of coaches who have attended recent Clays, with the intent of maybe helping some players decide whether it might be right for them.

    I think I take a glass half full rather than glass half empty view of Clays. It can provide a wonderful opportunity and showcase.....depending on the player.
     
  46. chalkflewup

    chalkflewup Hall of Fame

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    If a poll was taken, would the participants find the Clays to be a positive or a negative experience?
     
  47. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    I vote "Positive".

    (For those who vote "Negative", is it because college tennis is not played on clay courts?)
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2012
  48. chalkflewup

    chalkflewup Hall of Fame

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    ^^
    I suspect majority would vote positive.
     
  49. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

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    It just occurred to me that if the reason that we have competitive early round matches at the Clay Courts is that a lot of top players don't care about that tournament, then the implication is that the Clay Courts are simply different from Kalamazoo; therefore, why go to a 32 draw at the Clay Courts? If top players are paying for extra nights at hotel rooms in Kalamazoo so they can double bagel opponents in the first couple of rounds, then go to a 32 draw in Kalamazoo and leave the Clay Courts draw at 192, right?
     
  50. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    No, Kalamazoo is the equivalent to the US Open of junior tennis, key word is "open". (Kalamazoo allows pros to play that are still 18 and younger)

    Don't fall for USTA propaganda that changes needed to be made because of the "cost" to play national tournaments.

    I'm of modest means, but was able to fund 10 years of junior national tournaments for my kids.
     

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