Sedgman - underrated giant of the fifties

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by urban, Sep 12, 2008.

  1. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    So, you're saying there's more variety in today's game than say, 20+ years ago?
     
    #51
  2. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    No, I am not. I'm saying its not only nadal/djokovic style of tennis out there ......if you actually bothered to watch !
     
    #52
  3. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    Almost all of the top 100 players in the World today play the same variety of tennis. The few that are somewhat diversified are not threats to win majors or Masters level events. Don't get me wrong, I like modern tennis as much as the "big game," but, there is definitely a dearth of players who could remotely be called all court players today. Philipp Petzschner comes to mind.

    What makes you think I don't watch?
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2012
    #53
  4. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    His Volleys, specially FH side rank among the best ever.
     
    #54
  5. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    I was referring to kiki.

    I don't think delpo/tsonga/fish/berdych/tipsarevic play close to how ferrer/murray/nadal/djokovic play ......

    There's federer also of course ....

    tsonga/fish/federer approach the net quite a bit more than the others as well ...

    Also when talking when about variety, I mentioned tomic/dolgopolov for a very good reason. As kiki admitted he hasn't even heard of them, let alone seen them play ....
     
    #55
  6. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Keep living on Fantasyland, with new charachters like Tipsochhio, Fishgoofy and Dumbtsonga...
     
    #56
  7. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    and you can continue to live in that era where drysdale and ralston are great players .......:lol:

    At least I mentioned the players I did in terms of variety , not in terms of greatness ......

    Hurts to have your ignorance exposed time and again ???? :lol:

    well guess not, since you never stop showing your ignorance repeatedly ......
     
    #57
  8. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I doubt, if variety was just in front of your face, you could ever distinguish it...again, it is not your fault that you never watched Golden Era tennis, so, as Human nature is, you believe your era is the best ever...
     
    #58
  9. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    clueless Kiki, didn't I already say to you before that I believe mid80s to 1990 was the Golden era of tennis and not the present era .....

    Guess memory isn't one of your strong points . Well , nothing actually is from what I've seen ....
     
    #59
  10. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Since it is Easter, time for worshipping and forgiving, keep on worshipping and I´ll keep on forgiving...
     
    #60
  11. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    thoughts of a delusional......

    Come back when you can find a decent description/watched some matches involving tomic/dolgo ( or even the likes of tsonga ) before whining about lack of variety in this era ....
     
    #61
  12. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    00[145-+5-1QUOTE=abmk;6452974]thoughts of a delusional......
    40
    QUOTE]

    A generation takes 15 years.Why not divide tennis history by generations?.After some thought, here goes my particular opinion

    1900-1914: From Doherty to Wilding.tennis first steps, a commonwealth dominion (Doherty,Brookes,Wilding) with some great americans confined in US borders (Mc laughlin,Richards,Sears).WWI breaks the progress

    Match of the generation: Wilding vs Brookes

    1915-1929: from Wilding to Tilden.tennis goes international after WWI, but it is a US vs France contest.The first GOAT candidate shows up: Big Bil Tilden, whose knowledge will make him the first intelectual and whose personality, along Lenglen´s will give the sport a first bang.Tilden and Wills vs the Mousketeers and Lenglen.

    Match of the generation: Tilden vs Lacoste, Lenglen vs Wills

    1930-1944:From Tilden to Kramer.Tennis is already an international sport and pro tennis starts seriously, although having a bad reputation that lasts till 1950´s.Europe has Perry,Von Cramm,Nusslein , Australia has Crawford but US is the powerhorse with Budge,Vines and Riggs.WWII stops progress

    Match of the Generation:Budge vs Perry

    1945-1959:from Kramer to Laver, with Gonzales,Hoad,Rosewall,Trabert,Sedgman in the middle.6 all time greats ( 3 US and 3 Oz ) in a tennis world dominated by the 2 superpowers.US dominates women´s tennis with Marble,Betz,Connolly,Hart,Gibson and Fry.Pro tennis starts having its own life with those great stars and becomes the " real tennis".Possibly, the highest quality ever at the top 6.

    And latins have Olmedo and Segura, plus other aussies like Anderson and Cooper, Europe has Pietrangeli and Drobny...

    Match of the Generation:Hoad vs Pancho Gonzales

    1960-1974: from Laver to Borg.dawn of Open era.jets era increases tennis business while pros and amateurs still divided.1968 will change tennis ( as it changes the rest of human activities).Laver and Rosewall, with some unconsistent but brilliant showings from Gonzales and Hoad dominate the pro tennis.Emerson and then Newcombe,Ashe and Roche dominate the amateurs.Kodes and Nastase get in the middle of a condominium US-Australia.1974 marks the satrt of the Golden Era with great technichal and environtmental changes (TV,WTT,WCT): the era of true professionalism and the golden era spoilt by mass media.

    1974 also marks the end of Australian supremacy and the start of US dominance

    This generation has 3 queens: Court,Bueno and King that start the women´s lib movement that will benefit the new generation

    Match of the Generation: Laver vs Rosewall / Court vs Bueno/King

    1975-1989: From Borg to Sampras.Golden Era.Borg and Connors ( with Evert ) are the first 2 HBH, Vilas anc Connors are lefties, Vilas and Borg, start the dominance of top spin.Those 3 are followed by mc Enroe and Lendl and those 2 by Wilander,Becker and Edberg.great variety of styles, wood ceases its dominance and starts the graphite era.

    This golden era opens with the last major title of a preopen era player (Newcombe at Kooyong) and ends up with the first major win of a post golden era player (Chang at RG).It couldn´t be more perfectly fit...

    The ladies have also a memorable foursome, they are already ultraprofessionalized:Evert and Cawley first, Navratilova and Graf, next.Evert and Goolagong rivalize at the beginning, with the last champions of the preopen era (King and Court), while Navy and Graf with those two frustrated hopes called Austin and Mandlikova.

    Match of the Generation: Borg vs Connors and Lendl vs Mc Enroe/ Evert vs Cawley and Navratilova vs Graf.Borg vs Mc Enroe and Evert vs Navi are probably the greatest rivalries in modern tennis and give the sport an unprecedented lift, that will never be matched.tennis reaches its historic peak

    This era ends up witht he arrival of the first true big hitting, graphite and poly generation represented by Agassi and Sampras.After European domination, Us takes again the leadership

    1990-2004 From Sampras to Federer.As said, tennis has already peaked and will, slowly, go down in interest and variety, although the end of the cold war internationalizes the sport because of new nations ( plus the emergents).But classical powerhorses will slump.

    The big serving and big baseline bashing is the trademark.Sampras,Agassi,Courier represent the US dominance in men, while the 2 Williams and Davenport the US edge in women´s, after a first half dominated by europeans Graf,Seles,Hingis.US leads but Australia has Rafter and Hewitt, Spain begins to show great potential with Burguera,Moya,Costa and Ferrerro, and the eastern bloc, leaded by Russia is apowerhorse.So is Switzerland with 2 all time greats:Hingis and Federer.The era ends up with Sampras retired and Federer dominating...

    Match of the Generation:Sampras vs Agassi.Seles vs Graf

    2005-2019.We are now in the middle of the boring generation with same surfaces, styles, rackets and strings.Russians and Belgians dominate ladies tennis with the 2 Williams on the edge of retirement.Federer dominates for a while but Nadal first and Djokovic later break his strenghold.This era starts with the beginning of the intesne Fed-Nadal rivalry.

    match of the Generation:Nadal vs Fed, Serena vs Sharapova

    This post is dedicated to those great lovers of tennis hsitory,specially its past ( fedrulz,abmk,apmerk,TMF,Novaktowin,Monfed...)

    This is my Easter present to you.I hope you´ll be a bit less clueless after that.No need to say I didn´t for once check anything at wiki...I just knew it before coming to TT
    __________________
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2013
    #62
  13. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    ^^

    must admit, for once, a decent job well done by you ...... Copy pasting from some reference ...... :)

    Now let's see you do the same for the achievements of Vines alone and then try to read it ....

    Ditto for the styles of play of dolgopolov/tomic ....
     
    #63
  14. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Good sense of humour, Dolgolopov and Tomic.Maybe some day, they´l look like Starsky&Hutchinson, so much for names...
     
    #64
  15. veco

    veco New User

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    was Sedgman still recovering from surgery in the first half of 1956? cause he didn't tour with the best and didn't play the World (US) Pro.
     
    #65
  16. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Sedgman did not play the tour because the headliners were Trabert and Gonzales.
    There was no tour in 1955, due to lack of an audience.
    Sedgman played the tournaments after the championship tour, and was rusty.
     
    #66
  17. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki, great overview!
     
    #67
  18. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Thanks as you see me mentioned Vines and Nusslein
     
    #68
  19. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki, I am glad about that.

    By the way, Nüsslein never played in Davis Cup but he was an excellent coach: He coached the teams of the USA (1934,1935), Germany, Netherlands, India and Sweden.

    In the mid-1960s he even coached the DC teams of Germany and Sweden at the same time!
     
    #69
  20. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    The Australian Empire was started by Frank Sedgman and ended up by John Newcombe.Edmondoson in the 70´s, Cash in the 80´s, Rafter in the 90´s and Hewitt in 2000´s were mere reminiscences
     
    #70
  21. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    This led me to the true and undisputable sixteen seeded men based on their influence on each of the eight generations.

    Top 8:

    1900-1914:Wilding
    1915-1929:Tilden
    1930-1944:Budge
    1945-1959:Gonzales
    1960-1974:Laver
    1975-1989:Borg
    1990-2004:Sampras
    2005-2014:Federer

    2 commonwealth, 4 american, 2 european

    Second 8:

    1900-1914:Doherty
    1915-1929:Lacoste
    1930-1944:perry
    1945-1959:Kramer
    1960-1974:Rosewall
    1975-1989:Mc Enroe
    1990-2004:Agassi
    2005-2014:Nadal

    3 commonwealth, 3 american, 2 european

    5 from the commonwealth: 2 brittons,3 aussies ( wilding played for australassia)

    4 european: 2 from the south and 2 from the north
    amen
     
    #71
  22. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Mixing up from the oldest/best to the youngest/seconds the draw:

    TOP HALF

    Wilding vs Nadal
    Tilden vs Agassi
    Budge vs Mc Enroe
    Gonzales vs Rosewall

    BOTTOM HALF

    Laver vs Kramer
    Borg vs Perry
    Sampras vs Lacoste
    Federer vs Doherty
     
    #72
  23. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    You have omitted the greatest player of all for a major event!
    Some draw.
    Sedgman, the subject of this thread, is also left out.
    Some joke.
     
    #73
  24. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    This was not about peak play

    Hoad vs Kodes can´t be disputed as the most glorious of any possible final.
     
    #74
  25. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    The result of Hoad vs. Kodes?

    In Hoad's phrase, "Good night, nurse"!
     
    #75
  26. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    if Kodes beat Newk, he certainly can beat Hoad, who has less important wins than Newk
     
    #76
  27. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Newk greater than Hoad?
    That's a novel view.

    Newk lacked the range of shots and power of Hoad, among other things.
     
    #77
  28. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Hoad would gladly have Newk´s record

    Hoad could not beat Rosewall at FYH...Newk did it so brutally
     
    #78
  29. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki, Rosewall beat Newcombe even more brutally at FH than Newk did with Muscles...
     
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  30. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    What?

    One of Hoad's most important wins was at Forest Hills over Rosewall in the 1959 semifinal, 5-7, 6-4, 7-5, 6-4.

    That same season, Hoad defeated Rosewall at Kooyong, the Australian Pro, L.A. Masters, Forest Hills, Roland Garros.

    Total domination.
     
    #80
  31. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan, Rosewall and Hoad were about even that year but you are right that Lew won the more important matches.
     
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  32. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Hoad was 6 to 2 over Rosewall on the championship tour, but Rosewall won his greatest tournament ever at Brisbane, beating both Hoad and Gonzales in best-of-five set matches.
     
    #82
  33. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    You "forget" that Rosewall dominated in the Grand Prix: either 6:3 or 7:2...
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2013
    #83
  34. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    You mean the Grand Prix de Europe, a lesser tour in 1959 won by Sedgman.
    Hoad rather coasted on the European tour that year, as only the Roland Garros event was included in the world tournament championship.
     
    #84
  35. DMP

    DMP Semi-Pro

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    There are three players from the 50s who are (generally) underrated/not spoken about enough - Sedgman, Segura, and Trabert.
     
    #85
  36. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    You guys are are like tweedle-dum and tweedle-dee: I can't tell the difference between you.

    One champions Hoad, one champions Rosewall.?!!!
    Dan-Bobby, Bobby-Dan, Dan-Bobby, Bobby-Dan. Twins! Or an old married couple!

    On and on the squabbling goes . . . .
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2013
    #86
  37. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    hoodjem, There is a tiny difference between Dan and me: While I have some arguments for Rosewall being a GOAT candidate Dan has no arguments that Hoad is a GOAT candidate. Dan only has the absurd "argument" for his thesis that some former players have praised Lew's playing strength (when he was on).

    I'm sorry that I'm boring you. I just hope that Dan will realize his wrong point.
     
    #87
  38. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Bb1,
    No, you're not boring, just repetitively confusing.

    Thanks for the info:
    Bobby (=Muscles)
    Dan (=Hoad)
     
    #88
  39. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Yes, truth is sometimes confusing...

    When I started to post here, there were not many posters who had Rosewall as a GOAT candidate. Currently I see that yet several posters rank him that high.

    Maybe my efforts to explain Muscles' greatness have something to do with it...

    By the way, Bobby is not only Muscles, he is also Rocket and others (Little Nut Nüsslein, Segura, Gimeno, Roche).
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2013
    #89
  40. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Segura I don´t agree, he is far overrated here.Sedgman and Trabert, two true champions, I do agree.Sedgman was a complete player with an amazing doubles record.He was probably the first real modern tennis athlete in the sense we commonly use now.

    Trabert was a great fighter and a complete player, too.Maybe he has got to much overexposure as a commentator and people thinks of him more of a commentator than as a great player.he was also a DC captain for the USA
     
    #90
  41. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki, Segura was No.1 or 2, Trabert was only No. 4....
     
    #91
  42. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Segura was nº 2 when there was one true great player in the pros, Kramer or Gonzales.When it became competitive, Segura was placed where he belonged...
     
    #92
  43. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Segura´s place is an inbetween all time greats like Kramer,Rosewall,Hoad and Gonzales and secondary players like the Van Horns, Giammalvas and Ayalas of this wolrld...
     
    #93
  44. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    No, Bobby the arguments for Hoad are abundant.
    Laver, Gonzales, Rosewall and the rest did not merely praise Hoad's strength, but his variety of shots, the widest variety of all.
     
    #94
  45. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    you belong to those who neglect tennis history.

    I rank Segura No.2 also for 1954 and 1955 when there were Gonzalez and Sedgman even though he was 33, 34 then. When being 40 and 41 he was No5 and 4 respectively in a great pro field. In 1966 (!) Segoo was strong enough to beat Rosewall in a pro tournament...
     
    #95
  46. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki has decided to never learn history!

    Most all-time greats are inbetween Kramer, Rosewall and van Horn, Ayala. You just try to put down the great Segura who arguably had a better forehand than Rosewall's backhand.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2013
    #96
  47. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    That could be but that's not our discussion.
     
    #97
  48. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    The real test was in 1958, when Trabert defeated Segura in a long head-to-head tour of the USA.

    It was close, but Trabert won.
     
    #98
  49. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Segura was 37, Trabert was 28...
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2013
    #99
  50. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Bb1,
    Here are some stats that help to support the case that Rosewall is a strong GOAT contender:

    Rosewall’s Pro Slams/Slam Equivalents
    1972
    WCT Finals Rosewall (21) (Laver)
    RG Gimeno (Proisy)
    PSW Los Angeles Smith (Tanner)
    USO Nastase (Ashe)

    1971
    AO Rosewall (20) (Ashe)
    Rome Laver (Kodes)
    Wim Newcombe (Smith)
    USO Smith (Kodes)

    1970
    Sydney Laver (Rosewall)
    Wim Newcombe (Rosewall)
    USO Rosewall (19) (Roche)
    Barcelone Santana (Laver)

    1969
    AO Laver (Gimeno)
    RG Laver (Rosewall)
    Wim Laver (Newcombe)
    USO Laver (Roche)

    1968
    RG Rosewall (18 ) (Laver)
    Wimbledon Laver (Roche)
    PSW Los Angeles Laver (Rosewall)
    USO Ashe (Okker)

    1967
    Wembley Laver (Rosewall)
    World Pro Laver (Rosewall)
    Wimbledon Pro Laver (Rosewall)
    US Pro Laver (Gimeno)

    1966
    Wembley Laver (Rosewall)
    Barcelona Gimeno (Rosewall)
    New York MSG Pro Rosewall (17) (Laver)
    US Pro Laver (Rosewall)

    1965
    French Pro Rosewall (16) (Laver)
    Milan Pro Gimeno (Rosewall)
    Wembley Laver (Gimeno)
    US Pro Rosewall (15) (Laver)

    1964
    Noordwijk Pro Gimeno (Rosewall)
    French Pro Rosewall (14) (Laver)
    Wembley Laver (Rosewall)
    US Pro Laver (Gonzales)

    1963
    French Pro Rosewall (13) (Laver)
    Wembley Rosewall (12) (Hoad)
    US Pro Rosewall (11) (Laver)
    Italian Pro Rosewall (10) (Laver)

    1962
    French Pro Rosewall (9) (Gimeno)
    Wembley Rosewall (8 ) (Hoad)
    Stockholm Pro Rosewall (7) (Gimeno)
    Wimbledon Laver (Mulligan)

    1961
    Geneva Pro Gonzales (Rosewall)
    Copenhagen Pro Gonzales (Olmedo)
    French Pro Rosewall (6) (Gonzales)
    Wembley Rosewall (5) (Hoad)

    1960
    Victorian Pro Hoad (Rosewall)
    World Cham’p Tour Gonzales (Rosewall)
    French Pro Rosewall (4) (Hoad)
    Wembley Rosewall (3) (Segura)

    1959
    Melbourne Pro Sedgman (Gonzales)
    French Pro Trabert (Sedgman)
    Los Angeles Pro RR Gonzales (Hoad)
    Tourn. Of Champ. Hoad (Gonzales)

    1958
    Australian Pro Sedgman (Trabert)
    French Pro Rosewall (2) (Hoad)
    Wembley Sedgman (Trabert)
    Tourn. Of Champ. Gonzales (Rosewall)

    1957
    Australian Pro Segura (Sedgman)
    Wembley Rosewall (1) (Segura)
    Tourn. Of Champ. Gonzales (Sedgman)
    RG Davidson (Flam)
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2013

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