Self Rating After Long Absence

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by Cindysphinx, Mar 20, 2013.

  1. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Simple question: If a player was a 4.5C in 2008 and hasn't payed since, can she self rate as a 4.0?
     
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  2. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    If the player is still in tennislink, showing a 4.5 rating for 2008, then the answer is no. From the self-rating instructions sent to captains this season:

    "The minimum [self-rating] offered will be based on your tennis history and if you are a returning player, will not be lower than your last published rating."

    Of course, the player can then appeal the self rating.
     
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  3. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    She can if she uses a different name.
     
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  4. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Nope, I checked that. She is using the same name, and her record from 2008 and before is there for all to see.

    She did play a bunch of tournaments. I wonder if that explains why the computer let her rate at 4.0. Maybe her end-of-season results for 2008 were low enough to get bumped down to 4.0, so that's why the computer didn't bar her from 4.0S?
     
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  5. NumbersGuy

    NumbersGuy Rookie

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    She can also appeal the 4.5C 2008 rating, and if she's in the appealable range it will be granted, after which she can self-rate at 4.0. I've noticed several just like this in my Section and that was the NTRP Coordinator's reply. A shame that TennisLink doesn't give more information like this on players' rating histories.
     
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  6. Chelsie1

    Chelsie1 Rookie

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    That is perplexing. Seems the computer wouldn't let her rate down if her last rating was 4.5. Could be there is more to it.
    Did she appeal? How old is she? Ask the league coordinator. Could be a glitch.
     
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  7. rich s

    rich s Hall of Fame

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    Yes....

    I have a guy that was looking to join my men's 4.0 team (for the 2013 season) that was computer rated 4.5 a few years ago (2009ish).... when you look up his current year end rating it was listed as 0.0 because a period of 24 months had elapsed where he didn't play in USTA Leagues.
     
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  8. NumbersGuy

    NumbersGuy Rookie

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    That doesn't mean his prior rating isn't still stored in the USTA's computer, just that his rating has expired and he has to self-rate again, at no lower than his last published rating (the 2009ish 4.5). Are you saying he has now successfully self-rated at 4.0 without an appeal? That would be a glitch in the system.
     
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  9. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    If you look up his rating using the Find a Rating link on the League page, it will say 0.0, but if you go to his player page, it will show his last rating, which should be 4.5. He would have to self-rate at 4.5 and appeal. At least here, there have been several self-rating appeals granted so far this Spring. May vary by section, but it seems like Middle States is more interested in getting people playing than strictly policing artifical standards.
     
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  10. goober

    goober Legend

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    She could have a 4.0T rating which allowed her to self rate 4.0 instead of 4.5.

    For some reason I though they closed that loophole. Before you could get bumped to 4.5, play mix exclusive the next year and get a 4.0M rating which would then allow you to rate 4.0 for regular leagues. I thought the same would apply for T ratings, but maybe not or maybe the fact that it is 5 years old has something to do with it.
     
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  11. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    The other thing to remember is that a self-rating appeal still shows up as S rated, not A rated, so you can't tell if she self-rated and appealed or not just by looking in TennisLink.
     
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  12. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    She is older (55?), and it definitely says 4.0S.

    I guess it's OK for her to play for us? There is a DQ risk, but that doesn't to stop the other captains from taking strong self-rates on their teams.
     
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  13. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    It's definitely OK to sign her up, and yes, there is the DQ risk if she is that much better than everyone.
     
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  14. NumbersGuy

    NumbersGuy Rookie

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    My section's NTRP coordinator tells me that the computer now checks for prior ratings when a player self-rates (it didn't the very first year they applied the rule), so that it's "not possible" for her to self-rate lower than her last published rating unless she successfully appeals first, which many have. Since she's a prospective member on your team, maybe you should ask her if she appealed first? Remember, if she signs up for you we'll pretty quickly figure out who you're talking about and ask your section coordinator about her for you! JRB I think the DQ risk Cindy's talking about is "fradulent self-rate" not "three strikes".
     
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  15. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    No, I don't think this is a fraud case. She didn't change her name to trick the computer. I don't think she lied in answering the question because she doesn't have the things that people tend to lie about (e.g. playing in college).

    The risk is three strikes, as she is a singles player. Then again, this team is not playoff-bound, so if she gets DQ'd we will all survive. I will tell her to play hard, and we will let the chips fall where they may.

    See . . . I have captained for years. I have seen certain other captains take on strong self-rated players, and there is rarely a DQ. Indeed, it seems very unusual for a 4.0 woman to get DQ'd and bumped to 4.5, especially one who didn't play in college.

    If nothing else, it will give me a good story to tell all of you kind folks in about three months.
     
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  16. NumbersGuy

    NumbersGuy Rookie

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    But it would be deemed fraudulent if she self-rated lower than her last published rating, even if the computer mistakenly let her do so, without an intervening appeal. Thus subject to DQ.
     
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  17. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Oh, OK. I see what you're saying.

    I wouldn't consider that fraud unless she did something dishonest. If the computer allowed her to rate as a 4.0 through the fault of USTA, I wouldn't consider her culpable. I also wouldn't expect her to understand how all this is supposed to work, as I don't understand it very well myself. Hence this thread.

    Nevertheless, I am asking my league coordinator and plan to speak to the player directly just to make sure there wasn't an error or something.
     
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  18. NumbersGuy

    NumbersGuy Rookie

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    Good. Because in the end it won't matter what you consider fraud, only what the USTA does. Just want you to be fully informed and to understand whatever risks you may choose to take.
     
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  19. rich s

    rich s Hall of Fame

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    When you look him up on Find a Rating... he shows up as 0.0, when you look at his last match play result .... it lists him as 4.5

    When he inquired (at the local level) about playing on our 4.0 team he was told that he was able to join the 4.0 team as a 4.0......

    We play in the Atlanta area.... not sure if the rules are different than your area.
     
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  20. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    FYI. Medical appeals show up with an "S" rating. You would have to ask if she appealed for a medical reason. I thought a rating was good for 5 years and a player would have to sit out of all team tennis during that period to self-rate down.

    I used to know most all the rules. Not anymore.
     
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  21. JLyon

    JLyon Hall of Fame

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    In the good ole days of visual verifiers and on site DQ's it was 5 years now it is sit for 3 yrs and lie to self rate lower.
     
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  22. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    If he did poorly in his last season as a 4.5, the computer may have moved him down to 4.0 at year end. If you look at the rosters for the teams he played on, he will be listed at whatever level he registered at. For instance, if you look me up for 2005, you will see me still listed as a 2.5 even though I am currently a 4.0.

    I consider this issue a major flaw in TennisLink. As a captain, I sometimes want to know a player's rating history without having to piece it together by looking them up for each year they played. I don't think TennisLink allows a composite of rating history, but it should.
     
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  23. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    You can lie all you want, but if you are a 4.5 and sit out for 3 years, you cannot come back lower than 4.5.

    If you create a new name to get around this rule and you are a strong player at the lower level, someone is going to do some sleuthing and catch you.
     
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  24. Joeyg

    Joeyg Semi-Pro

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    You must be from NorCal.
     
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  25. JLyon

    JLyon Hall of Fame

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    Then please explain how your player did it then? That is the whole point. I hate how the USTA now allows you to sit three years and then appeal with some lame ass excuse and get back to where you were dominating before that led to the bump up and then like a spoiled child takes their ball home and sits, while other keep playing and deal with it.
     
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  26. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    I will have to get back to you on that!
     
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  27. chatt_town

    chatt_town Hall of Fame

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    Nope....Wife just went through this. She was a 4.5 and didn't play since like 2009. It made her self rate back as a 4.5 which is crazy to me simply because now she is even in more danger of being bumped to 5.0 because she is self rated player as opposed to a computer rated player. I think if they are going to make you assume your same rating go back to it being a computer rated rating as opposed to self rate. Everyone knows that a computer rated player is bumped easier or even capable of being dq'ed. Just one more stupid way of handling things.


     
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  28. ian2

    ian2 Semi-Pro

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    Hey Cindy, she has a valid rating bestowed by USTA and she wants (I assume) to play on your team. I'd say it's all kosher, no need to worry about imaginary ethical issues, or get league coordinator etc. involved... Any self-rated player is in danger of being DQed, it's a given. As you said, let the chips fall as they may.
     
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  29. gameboy

    gameboy Hall of Fame

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    It is too bad that you can't rerate even after many years.

    I played 6.0 mixed doubles with my wife 3 years ago with her self rating of 2.5 (she had never competed in any sporting event, ever). We were able to win most of our matches due to me covering 80% of the court and my heavy ground strokes which most 3.0 women couldn't even return.

    My wife got bumped to 3.5 after that, which basically makes it impossible for her to play, because she would be a middling 3.0 at best. Now, her competitive career is essentially over.
     
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  30. goober

    goober Legend

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    She can still appeal her rating to 3.0 or at worse play one season at 3.5 and have her rating go down if she is truly 3.0.
     
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  31. ian2

    ian2 Semi-Pro

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    or maybe even adjust and do fine at 3.5... you never know :)
     
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  32. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    +1.

    With a bit of practice, she ought to be able to handle playing Court Three for your average 3.5 team.

    Embrace the challenge. Help her get ready for 3.5.
     
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  33. gameboy

    gameboy Hall of Fame

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    That's the thing. She is not playing to get better per se, she just enjoys playing. She has not really improved in those three years. And I doubt that my club 3.5 team will welcome her in.

    I see no possibilities for her to play any competitive league with her current rating.
     
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  34. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Ah, come on.

    She doesn't have to play to get better. She just has to play, and the getting better part will come. Surely there is a team that needs an enthusiastic warm body ready to play in a pinch?

    If nothing else, she can practice with them. That might inspire her to improve a tad and make new friends in the process.

    Besides, I would be very surprised if after a season of 6.0 mixed that she still has 2.5 tennis skills. I know I couldn't have handled 6.0 mixed when I was a 2.5 no matter how good my partner was.

    She is probably better than you think.
     
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  35. gameboy

    gameboy Hall of Fame

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    She is not a beginner. She has been playing for a very long time. She just has not played competitively. She has plateaued. Unless she drastically change her commitment level, it is unlikely that she is going to improve (which she is not interested in).
     
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  36. cork_screw

    cork_screw Hall of Fame

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    Go to a USTA center and have them rate you. Never rate yourself as you are biased
     
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  37. SunshineJS

    SunshineJS New User

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    Umm... you can't go anywhere to get rated anymore. It's all based on the self-rate questionaire.


    Anyway to clarify teh original question... If the player goes through the questionaire it will give them a minimum based on how the questions were answered or the level they last had a valid rating (which ever is higher). They can then file a self-rate appeal, and if granted will still show up as an S not an A. Unfortunately for other players there is no way of knowing whether or not a player filed a successful self-rate appeal or not without asking your local coordinator.
     
    #37

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