Seriously about Twist serve

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by toly, Sep 14, 2012.

  1. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    That is HIS twist serve. YOU try some.
    For me, I have to hit the ball higher than my strikepoint, to get the higher than shoulder level bounce.
    Maybe HE can do it without hitting up. I know both my buds hit higher than their original contact point, to get the heavy loop and downward path for the high bounce.
     
    #51
  2. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    If your racquet is slightly open you cannot hit twist serve, right?:confused:
     
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  3. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Depends....
    How high a bounce are you looking for? How high a net clearance?
    I used to play a FlimFlam man (flea marketeer) around 60 years old who hit his twists so it cleared the net by easily 5', maybe more, ball going slow at maybe 50 mph, but bounced well over 6' high or higher at the baseline. His twist is impacted with a slightly open face.
    Mine might be vertical face. I hit up a bit, contact point around 8'6" or slightly lower, ball clears the net by 3' or so, goes maybe 60 mph, and bounces between 5'6" to 6' high, but hardly ever higher (in 60 degree weather, DunlopHDChampHardcourt balls). Worm cement courts.
    The last vid might be closed face, barely top of shoulder bounce, but much more ball speed, probably closer to 80 or possibly more.
     
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  4. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    You definitely didn’t read post #1. Twist serve (bounce to the right for righties) theoretically and practically impossible to hit with vertical or slightly open racquet!!! :shock:
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2012
    #54
  5. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Don't believe everything you read!
    I KNOW how to hit AmericanTwist serves. The first guy I ever hit with at GoldenGatePark had the best twist serve YOU"VE ever seen. ArtLarsen.
    My twists bounce about eye heights to a 6' tall player. My slices around bellybutton high, as does my flats. My topslice second serves bounce about armpit high.
     
    #55
  6. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    You are talking about topspin, kick serve, or whatever.
    You miss the main idea of twist serve. Does the ball bounce to the left (lefty serve)?:)
     
    #56
  7. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    I know what a twist serve is, having hit with ArtLarsen in 1976.
    My lefty twist on duece court usually lands near the intersect, kicks out to the left so the returner has both feet beyond the doubles alley as he contacts the ball. Most opponent's just hit a topspin shot to my feet as I approach service line position, so I have to half or low volley it into the ad side court.
    RollieZalameda, who beat PeanutLouie in SanFrancisco's high school tennis championships, had a great high twist serve. He was No.2 for MissionHigh, and ended up No.4 at CanadaCollege his freshman year. Pea WON the CanadianOpen the following year, so she was no slouch.
     
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  8. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    This video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hGS03eFzi0&feature=relmfu shows the same kick serve from different angles.

    [​IMG]
    Figure 13. Kick serve from different angles

    Fig. 13.1 illustrates that the ball trajectory is near to horizontal, but in fig. 13.2 you can see trajectory of the steep rising ball. So, a photo camera can deceive us drastically.

    Here is this player fist serve http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYify796Nc0&feature=relmfu.

    [​IMG]
    Figure 14. Fist serve

    The ball has "steep" going down trajectory.

    I think pros mostly hit twist serve slightly downward, because of high speed of the ball (more 100mph), otherwise ball flies out, but most recreational players can hit the ball upward with lower speed.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2012
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  9. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Well DUH....
    Pros are not us.
    We cannot swing fast enough upwards and outward to get the twist effect, so we slow down the ball, needing MORE arch, eh?
    Pros also hit the serves 140mph and upwards. We don't.
     
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  10. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    Last edited: Jan 10, 2013
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  11. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    This is just ONE example of a fast slice serve.
    A slow slice serve, like used for second serves, are usually hit upwards first, and the slow speed allows gravity to take effect and bring the ball back down.
    Slice serves are not twist serves.
    You keep insisting of using top level players hitting fast serves. You need to look at top level players hitting normal speed balls.
     
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  12. jmnk

    jmnk Professional

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    with all due respect I'm not sure what those pics are supposed to prove? You are not suggesting that one can hit a serve with downward angle about 45degrees as you seem to be implying here?? This pic, as well as the previous ones, are just optical illusions due to the position of the camera.
    Sure, one can, and the pros do, hit the serve downward. But the angle is around 5degrees. if you are not a pro with high serve speed and high rpm topspin you just need to hit topspin serve up.
    There's actually a pretty cool article by Broody (or Cross) about so-called acceptance angle of the serve. He evaluates how much up or down you can hit a serve depending on the speed and rpm. There's no much of a margin.
     
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  13. okaythen

    okaythen New User

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    hi guys I can do a kick serve pretty good, I am going to try to do twist serve now but exactly what's the difference between them? toss is the same, you arch your back just like kick serve, grip is continental or backhand grip for more spin. the only difference is it only 8 to 2 oclock for twist? any other differences? thanks guys and you hit and follow through the same way as kick serve right?
     
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  14. okaythen

    okaythen New User

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    also for twist serve you finish at the same side of your hitting arm? whereas slice and flat serve your hitting arm finishes at the opposite side of the hitting arm?
     
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  15. ShoeShiner

    ShoeShiner Rookie

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    I like this kind of threads. Thank you.
     
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  16. Power Player

    Power Player Talk Tennis Guru

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    Hey Okaythen, I played a set last night and hit exclusively kicks and twists to really fortify a solid serve.

    Anyway, all these diagrams and things in this thread are overkill. People here debate nuances that will only cause overthinking on the court.

    What I would suggest is getting the toss right. The way to finish, or the way I finish my twist serve is with my racquet face facing in towards me. Jeff Salzenstines youtube video on the "dirty diaper" finish is great for this. Mainly focuses on the kick serve, but you will see that when you mess around with the toss and the angle of attack on the ball you will get a twist. He also shows the proper finish and motion, and a drill to get it locked in.

    It's not worth all the diagrams and overthinking. don't worry about that stuff.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2012
    #66
  17. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    IMO you can use kick serve routine but with different grip. When we hit kick serve with continental grip at contact the wrist (flexion/extension) is neutral and racquet string bed is vertical. If we use eastern continental grip the racquet string bed will be closed 45°. This would be too much, it should be around 15° - 30°.
    So, turn the racquet handle 15° - 30° from continental grip in direction of eastern BH grip. :confused:
     
    #67
  18. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    To hit a twist make sure you hit the part of the ball that's facing the left side fence (for righty). not the 'back' of the ball. the back of the ball faces the back fence. Throw your weight in the direction you want the twist to go. So if you are serving to ad court and you want it to kick wide then make your weight go in that direction, not in the direction of where it will hit on the court but in the direction of where you want it to kick. so for ex. aim your weight towards the net post. Swing almost directly towards the right side fence parallel to the baseline, not into the court or into the direction of the ball's flight path. That's why the arm ends up like this after a twist:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    #68
  19. gregor.b

    gregor.b Professional

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    Yeah. Apparently there is this thing called 'PRACTICE'. Not too sure if it has much to do with reading and interpreting diagrams though.

    If you could learn to play tennis simply by theorising and reading a book athletes would not be the greatest tennis players. Try the 'monkey see monkey do' approach.

    Sheesh.
     
    #69
  20. okaythen

    okaythen New User

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    dirty diaper is to make sure you snap your wrist right?

    toss is the same as kick serve right? just over and a little behind your head. and you need to arch your back so you can see the ball. as you arch your back you bend your knees as well.

    hmm the 15° - 30° I didn't know about that, I will pay attention to that the next time I play. I am not sure but I think naturally your racquet face will be vertical with continental and 15° - 30° with backhand grip?

    So not just 8 to 2 o'clock, you also want to kinda hit the left side of the clock hence the left side of the ball? I will make a note for that too.

    Man I googled twist serve, read several links. Found out the proper name is american twist serve, googled that again and read several links again. also watched youtube videos up to page 4 cause there ain't many for twist serves, mostly for kick serves. I picked up a thing or two from EACH place but it took a long time. I have a good knowledge of kick serve and took many tennis lessons when I was younger so I was able to tell which info was right and wrong. but it took awhile, now if later I want to learn a new thing what's the best and quickest way for all the correct and full info?

    So guys I can do pretty good kick serve, how long until I can do a decent to good twist serve? like how many hours of practicing, or weeks etc. thanks
     
    #70
  21. okaythen

    okaythen New User

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    Is jumping for kick and twist serve a very important aspect for the serve? I don't jump for any of my serves, maybe very little bit when I am really focused and the opponent is tough. But most of the time I don't jump. Or transfer your weight forward by stepping your back foot toward your front foot as you are hitting the ball. When I was a teenager my coach never tell me to do those so I never learned those but my other forms are good for serve. So is it very imporant for twist serve? without it my kick serve is still very high


    also the follow through and ending posture is similar to kick serve right? any difference?
     
    #71
  22. morandi

    morandi Rookie

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    It is not necessary, but I recently worked on incorporating more jump into my serve, and it improved my level of kick tremendously, it also improved my consistency, placement, and pace. It made a big difference to me.
     
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  23. okaythen

    okaythen New User

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    some people during their serve they move their back feet toward front feet and jump right away. Some people just jump and hit the serve, what's the difference between the two? I guess the first one can generate more weight transfer? or it's just personal perference?

    Once I tried to learn jump up and hit the serve, I find it hard to hit the ball cause you are in the air. Any tips?
     
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  24. Power Player

    Power Player Talk Tennis Guru

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    Did you watch the video on youtube? A ton of questions can be answered by watching video on youtube.
     
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  25. morandi

    morandi Rookie

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    I dont move my feet. I stay in a relatively narrow platform stance. It is really a load and explode up movement. If you start thinking about the serve as less of a linear stroke, where your arm is hitting at the ball, and more about trying to get up and over on the ball that helped me. Like your trying to push the ball over the net using your whole body, like a jump shot in basketball. The racquet is just an extension of your hand.
     
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