Serve and Volley on Second Serve?

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by Lindros13, May 21, 2006.

  1. Lindros13

    Lindros13 Semi-Pro

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    Do most serve and volleyers come in after the second serve as well? With a decent topspin second serve at a 4.5 level, is it a good thing in your opinion? Obviosly it depends upon how good your second serve is, and also how good of a s/v game you have.

    What do most S/V's do?
     
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  2. AndyP

    AndyP New User

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    The second serve gives you more time to approach the net, but it is also easier for your opponent to pass you. So it really depends on the player you are playing against.
     
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  3. Rickson

    Rickson G.O.A.T.

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    I don't, but most serve and volleyers in the ATP come in on their 2nd. Depth and pace are the keys for me so if I serve to the line and get decent pace, I'll come in on the 2nd, but if the ball lands in the middle of the box or shorter, I'll stay back.
     
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  4. theartoftennis

    theartoftennis Rookie

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    Most better SVers at the 4.5 lvl can kick you up high on the backhand, which usually sets up an easy volley.
     
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  5. kevhen

    kevhen Hall of Fame

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    When I serve and volley which is maybe 10% of the time, I will also follow my second serve in, since I put alot of spin on it so it's similar to my first serve when serve and volleying. I figure if you are going to serve and volley you might as well go on your second as well since aren't expected to win as many points on your second serve and it puts pressure on the opponent to hit a good low return. I tend to S&V when up in the match and possibly up in the game too, so it's low risk and helps keep the opponent on edge and not knowing what I will be doing in the future so he may miss some future returns thinking that I might be coming in.
     
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  6. chess9

    chess9 Hall of Fame

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    It depends on the opposition. My second serve is only about 80 mph or so. I will usually kick it or slice it wide. But, with such a slow-paced serve, most players above about 3.5 can whack it by you pretty easily so I don't think it's a percentage play given this set of facts, even though my volleys are by far the strongest part of my game. However, I will, on occasion come in on a second serve when I've hit a hard kick to the opponent's backhand. I never will come in when I try to hit wide to the forehand or down the T to a right-hander because sometimes you just serve it in the slot and he kills the ball.

    Good luck with that.

    -Robert
     
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  7. nViATi

    nViATi Hall of Fame

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    80MPH is about as fast as a pro's second serve isn't it?
     
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  8. kevhen

    kevhen Hall of Fame

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    Well Agassi hits just over 90mph on his. Most pros hit over 100. The women hit about 80 on their seconds except for Hingis and Navritolova that hit more like 60-70mph.

    My second is like 70-90mph depending on the amount of spin I add.
     
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  9. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    So your second is like a woman's serve? LOL What a nut.
     
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  10. kevhen

    kevhen Hall of Fame

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  11. naturalgut

    naturalgut Rookie

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    Most of the S & V players now come in only on their 1st serve on most surfaces, apart from Taylor Dent who comes in on every serve. However, quite a few players S & V 100% on grass as it is traditionally a faster surface with a less predictable bounce. If I remember correctly, Pat Rafter in the early years of his career came in on every serve, but became more selective later on.
     
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  12. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    Putdowns? LOL, spoken from the true putdown artist! More coming.

    Why? I have the lousiest serve in the world. I can't hit it worth a darn and it only goes about 30 mph. Why would I ever want to show that serve.

    Yikes, LOL, you do kind of have a woman's motion. I would say 3.5ish.
     
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  13. chess9

    chess9 Hall of Fame

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    Hey! Are you talking about me? :)
    I resemble that remark, sorry to say. But, at 63 I take what I can get....

    -Robert
     
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  14. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    Hahaha, I bet your serve looks better than Kevhen', his needs some work. ;)
     
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  15. Andres

    Andres G.O.A.T.

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    We shouldn't be ashamed. The Williamses, Sharapova and Davenport can probably outserve me everytime :mrgreen:
     
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  16. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    LOL, good point! They also have the grunting I don't have! :(
     
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  17. Andres

    Andres G.O.A.T.

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    Why would you? The grunting it's annoying ;)
    Last night I was training, and in the court next to us, there was this guy who grunted... mod. loudly ... but he screamed his ass off each time he commited an UE.

    A huge voice from such a little guy. At one point (after the first hour and a half of practice), we were JUST about to go to that guy, and beat the crap out of him. At least, he would have a REASON to scream.

    Eventually, he left the courts, and we could finish the hour and a half left of the practice.
     
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  18. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    I knew a player that would say "HUT, HUT, HUT, HUT" on any ball he had to chase down. It was so funny it became distracting. I saw players falling down laughing. Quite a secret weapon the guy had. :)
     
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  19. Woodstock_Tennis

    Woodstock_Tennis Rookie

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    lol there's this group of guys who are into thier 60's and always seem to be around, whenever they have to run a ball down they just start yelling out what seems to be names.

    Ball goes cross court, runs after and yells JERRRRYYYY, other guy takes off and yells GARRRYYYYY. Yet to ask them what they are saying or why, but pretty funny to listen to.
     
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  20. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    LOL, amazing.
     
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  21. AngeloDS

    AngeloDS Hall of Fame

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    You need a well placed kicking serve to their backhands to come in and volley. A flat serve or a topspin serve might not be good since they're a bit easier to deal with and you can rip right through them (most people attack on the second serve). Plus, serve and volley a lot of people don't realize that it's a percentage game as well. You'll win and lose some, so you need to tactically know when you're going to come in and also know where the return might land and be there.
     
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  22. coach

    coach Semi-Pro

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    Kevhen----
    great video--- with the 2nd "power serve" I noticed that your right leg come up a lot- but good for getting your weight into the court which is where you end up.
    I have only seen my serve once on video-- it was quite an eyeopener-- in a depressing way!

    you know most people are hung up on MPH of the serve. Like another poster noted about Agassi's serve, mixing it up, moving it around is also very affective. If a pitcher just threw 92mph fastballs for every pitch it wouldn't be as effective.

    BTW, I noticed that both those courts looked like they were inside Kevhen.... (in Iowa huh?) Come visit us out west in CA.... sunny when you can get to the courts through the smog filled graffiti overpass gridlock traffic!
     
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  23. TennisAsAlways

    TennisAsAlways Professional

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    About Kevhen's serve, there are several things that could be pointed out for correction, but since this thread is not about him seeking advice for improvement, I will not go into detailed analysis.

    Kevhen, one thing I'll point out on your flat serve is that you are not stretching up your tossing arm. It looks like you release the ball way before your left arm is fully extended, too, which is something that you should not be doing.
     
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  24. kevhen

    kevhen Hall of Fame

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    yeah I guess my 3.5 level serve, by Bill's standards, needs some work. My vollies need even more! Sorry, if I have ever put you down Bill.

    I do hold about half my service games against 4.5 rated guys but only break about 20% against those same guys so my return must really suck!!!!

    I didn't know I was a putdown artist but I know I can be critical at times. Do you remember what I said when I put someone else down?
     
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  25. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    Sorry if I ever put you down? Man, dude, you are a weird one. Read your posts! You sound like the other cry baby that has me on "ignore" off and on.

    Oh, sorry to say pal, but your serve does need work. What did you expect? lol
     
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  26. kevhen

    kevhen Hall of Fame

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    Isn't the goal to have a consistent ball toss? So would my toss be even more consistent by releasing when the arm is fully extended? I guess if my toss was inconsistent that would be something to look at changing. Otherwise it might just throw my timing off. I might have one bad toss in every 10-15 serves and can still sometimes get those to land in. Is that good or bad?
     
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  27. kevhen

    kevhen Hall of Fame

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    I don't remember putting you down, but just pointed out that 2 back in doubles when returning can and does work in modern tennis since most players have better baseline games than net games these days. I just argue my points as I see them, but when you feel threatened, you often resort to name calling and belittling rather than just stating the facts that you know and letting it go.
     
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  28. joe sch

    joe sch Hall of Fame

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    I have seen the BB serve.
    He is big lefty, has excellent form and gets some nasty lefty kick on it.
    It puts the serve I saw on your video to shame in comparison.
     
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  29. kevhen

    kevhen Hall of Fame

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    It would be awesome to have some video of it so we could all try to emulate it!
     
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  30. joe sch

    joe sch Hall of Fame

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    People post videos because they realize they need help, well maybe some think they are showing off :) Its sounding like you just want him to post a video so you can attempt to put him down ? He knows what he is talking about and does not need video footage to back it up.
     
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  31. Mike Cottrill

    Mike Cottrill Hall of Fame

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    Kevhen,

    If you are getting the MPH and the spin on that serve, I can only imagine what you would get with some changes. The question you need to ask yourself is do you want to improve.
     
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  32. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    Kevhen,

    About the only claim to fame I have is playing in college and passing the USPTA's serving test with flying colors. I know it doesn't sound like much and to me it sort of is and it isn't.

    But why would you want to imitate my serve when there are professionals that serve way better than me? It sort of does sound like you want to do something negative with it.

    Plus, Kevhen, I would rather coach than play. This old body is so banged up I cant even go for a 2 mile run without having a lot of pain the next day - and it isn't muscle pain. If your body allows you to play tennis, on an on-going basis, then shut the hell up and listen to those that have been there and done that.

    I don't ever think I have asked Vic Braden or John Yandell to prove their serve, so I could poke fun at it when they offer their advice and insight on how to make other player's serves better than theirs.

    You just don't make much sense.
     
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  33. kevhen

    kevhen Hall of Fame

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    So I should go straight from serving like a 3.5 to trying to serve like a professional? Or aren't there any gradual steps in between?

    I guess I live too close to Missouri where they prefer people to show them rather than just tell them how to do things.
     
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  34. ta11geese3

    ta11geese3 Semi-Pro

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    Just watched the clips... I have to say I am surprised... this whole time, Kevhen, I assumed you were a teenager because of your posts... o_O
     
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  35. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    Yeah, and I woke up yesterday. I have demonstrated enough here and continue to demonstrate that I would rather coach than play. Did you have your football coach throw passes for you until you got it? Did you have your baseball coach pitch for you so you could "get it"? And really who cares about MY serve as the model?

    Bottom-line: You are the very first person on this board over the years that I really don't care to help. :mrgreen:

    I think you would be better off getting help from the others that post here. I am sure you will get good tips.

    Gidday mate.
     
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  36. vinouspleasure

    vinouspleasure Rookie

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    are you really getting those speeds with that motion? I don`t have an axe to grind but it does look like a 3.5 serve.
     
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  37. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    It is a 3.5 serve, maybe 4.0 and no he is not getting those speeds. Maybe on occasion he will pop one, but that form has some issues. Oh, I always have an axe to grind. :mrgreen:
     
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  38. str33t

    str33t Professional

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    you'd need a good kick serve to come into the net on a second.
     
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  39. Mike Cottrill

    Mike Cottrill Hall of Fame

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    Bill,
    I wonder too .,, but he is 6’4”. I’ll give a few mph for that :;
     
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  40. vinouspleasure

    vinouspleasure Rookie

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    Its hard to imagine any consistency as well. not to pile on kehven, but I think you may have a foot fault problem too.

    Hey, I remember way back when you didn`t have an axe to grind.
     
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  41. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    LOL, probably during a time I was hallucinating or something. There are only a few people I really don't care for here. I know it doesn't seem like that but it is true. ;)
     
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  42. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    Yeah but the problem is he is 6'4". I am 6' 2". He should be getting way more from his serve and I really dont see the arm speed or "crack" in the ball that makes me think - wow, that is a hard serve.

    Players at 3.5 have that serve. I guess it would be difficult to determine his placement and consistency but his form is not that good and needs work.

    It is not that I don't think he has potential to have a great serve, it is just this serve didn't show much.
     
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  43. travlerajm

    travlerajm Hall of Fame

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    Sampras went the other way late in his career - At first he would stay back on most 2nd serves on hard court, but he was serve-and-volleying on amost every serve the last two years.
     
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  44. kevhen

    kevhen Hall of Fame

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    I moved back a couple more inches so I don't think I footfault anymore as I pivot my left foot forward but I don't watch my foot when I am serving so I am not sure.

    My consistency is roughly equal the percentage + speed = 150. So if I try to hit 110 then my consistency is about 40%. If I hit about 70mph then my consistency is about 80%.

    My serve hold to break differential is about 30% (65/35 against an equal) so I think that would point to my serve being stronger than the rest of my game which is 4.0 rated.

    I would still like to see Bill's serve on video to compare and see what good form looks like. If Bill's serve is not perfect then maybe he would like some pointers to help improve it unless he has already retired from the game at 46 and just likes to coach.
     
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  45. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    Here is good form.

    http://www.uspta.com/html/e-lesson-Flat%20serve.swf

    Copy that.

    Now why would I like some pointers from you? LOL!!! That is the funniest thing I have ever heard!

    If I want pointers, I would not go to you! I would send my film elsewhere.

    But isnt that what I said? That I would rather coach now? Should I run to Vic Braden and tell him "unless you have perfect form and have it on film, I won't listen, cause I am a jackass." What a stupid response that would be? Much like your idiotic response.

    Haven't I been saying this for YEARS!!!!!!! Do you see "FORMER USPTA PRO?" Haven't you read that I DONT ENTER TOURNAMENTS DUE TO FAMILY COMMITTMENTS? DONT YOU SEE THAT I DO KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT? WHERE DO YOU THINK THE KNOWLEDGE COMES FROM?????

    You have a 3.5 serve and it needs work. :cool:

    Are you that much of a nit-wit to not understand that?
     
    #45
  46. kevhen

    kevhen Hall of Fame

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    OK, sorry for being a nit-wit. Thanks for the video link.
     
    #46
  47. equinox

    equinox Hall of Fame

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    Show me the stars and i'll show you bumblingbill.

    Who's serve is better? I'd say kevhen's. Because he makes better use of his whole body in his serve. Look at his long jumper stride! up up and away!

    Kevhen:
    [​IMG]

    ME:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    BTW i slowed the video down a touch to give a better view of my serve. My serves a little faster than shown. And was a pretty casual serve.

    BB you should layoff Kevhen. Not everyone can reach the dizzying heights of college tennis or be a coach to the stars.
     
    #47
  48. kevhen

    kevhen Hall of Fame

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    Thanks, do you play 3.5 matches, Equinox?
     
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  49. equinox

    equinox Hall of Fame

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    I'm not sure about ntrp.
    I just play local district grade.
    I'm competitive at A Reserve district level.
    A mate of mine plays grade 3 vic pennant and i can ocassionally take sets off him. We have fairly close matches.
    I'd get beaten by most decent itn 4's, ntrp 5.0 probably 6-3.
    I lost to 450th AR in my country 6-0,7-5 in open tourny.

    I'm not that good, plenty of weaknesses in my game, especially 1hb and 2nd serve.
     
    #49
  50. vinouspleasure

    vinouspleasure Rookie

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    >>My serve hold to break differential is about 30% (65/35 against an equal) so I >>think that would point to my serve being stronger than the rest of my game >>which is 4.0 rated.

    - Well, someone said there are liars, damn liars and statisticians. Lets say the average pro holds 75% of the time (I have the actual statistic somewhere). Does that mean the average pro has a stronger serve than the rest of their game? No, it means the server has an advantage. Kehven if you're getting broken twice a set on average, I would argue your serve is weaker than your level, not stronger.

    - when you say the rest of your game is 4.0 rated, what do you mean? typically, parts of your game are not rated individually. Is your nrtp computer rating 4.0?

    bb, hard on the issues, soft on the person...
     
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