Serve speed cage

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by raiden031, Aug 2, 2009.

  1. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    It all contributes, as does the roughness of the court.

    If you have a really rough slow hard court like the ones Drak is talking about at the Sony Ericsson, then the spin takes to it, and you get really nasty high bounces on your kick serves, and it actually slows down your flatter serves and makes them sit up a bit more.

    I didn't get a chance to play on them, but I can't remember ever seeing slower courts. If I had to play on them every day, I can't imagine a pair of sneakers lasting more than 2 weeks.

    J
     
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  2. Datacipher

    Datacipher Banned

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    Wow. First time I've agreed with LeeD. This is a joke. If you believe that your serve is doing this, it shows how confused you are. Just as the OP who thinks his serve which USUALLY hits the back fence is 100mph. WOW.

    My fastest serve speed was 130mph, with my normal flat serve between 113-117mph, I am sure I can hit the fence at 40 feet, but it AIN"T gonna be rising or anywhere near maintaining peak height, that is for darn sure. EIGHT FEET UP at forty feet! LOL!!

    PS. As i just posted in another thread. Your flat serve probably has to be around 40mph minimum to hit the back fence, IF you hit it perfectly. To get it 4 feet up, it probably has to be at a minimum of 80mph or so. Assuming you are around 6 feet tall.
     
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  3. Ano

    Ano Hall of Fame

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    #53
  4. raiden031

    raiden031 Legend

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    The only reason I think my serve might be 100mph at its best is because I think that 100mph when watched live at a pro event seems slow to me. Its not til they hit about the 115-120 range that I start noticing the speed.

    40mph? Most of the rec. players I play with don't hit the back fence on the first bounce without having a potent serve (relative to my ability to return serve). I don't think i've ever seen a woman up to even 4.5 hit the fence on the first bounce (not to say they don't exist, but I've never seen it so I imagine it takes more than 40mph to do so).
     
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  5. raiden031

    raiden031 Legend

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    duplicate...
     
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  6. Datacipher

    Datacipher Banned

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    Oh OK. Well, I read that thread you started about watching the pros, and...to be honest....you're clearly not at a level yet at which you can even judge the pros....as you, even realize (thus, your confusion about why the "same" shot for you is not a winner).

    In any case, If your serve "usually" reaches the back fence, I can ASSURE you, it's not 100mph.

    As to the 40mph, I've never actually tried to measure my minimum speed to hit the back fence (I've never hit one that hasn't hit the back fence...), but I estimate around 40mph, as I've hit mid 60mph serves on radar that VERY easily reach the back fence. My warm ups are sometimes much slower than that, and they easily reach the back fence. (flat)

    Um.....LOTS of 4.5 women, I know, reach the back fence....but I will agree with you, that it is not uncommon for women and men not to reach the back fence, however, I assure you, the reason is not because they are under 40mph, it's because they have lousy, off-balance, poorly timed, poorly struck serves. Even here, as I'm sure you know, the majority of people who post videos are hardly going to be mistaken for pros! Most of the motions are....well....FUGLY!!!
    ;-)
     
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  7. raiden031

    raiden031 Legend

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    I don't get why people keep quoting "usually". I don't hit every first serve hard and flat and I also don't hit every first serve cleanly and sometimes hit a little bit off center. I mean if I hit a good first serve it nails the fence and makes some noise. So what happens when I hit a crappy serve should be irrelevant to my max speed.

    How can you say a 40mph serve hit properly will hit the fence but one hit poorly will not? Once the ball leaves the racquet it is a projectile with no forces acting on it except gravity. The only thing that might make a difference from there is the spin and the angle in which it was hit.

    I don't believe you if you say you always hit the back fence and never not hit it. I've seen pro men and women not hit the back fence occasionally (men on second serves, women on first serves).
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2009
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  8. Datacipher

    Datacipher Banned

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    Now you're crossing over into total idiot territory. YOU DON'T BELIEVE me.....unreal. That was hardly a claim to fame. Well go ahead and don't, it's pretty hard for me to produce a video of every serve I've ever hit. As I said, my ~40mph serves can reach the fence.

    As to pros not hitting the fence, GET REAL. First, we were talking about a flat serve. Sure, a pro, fooling around, hitting the WUSSIEST slice of his life, might not reach the back fence, but ANY flat warm up serve of his will. The women as well, unless they are playing on a large court. No pro bounces the ball twice with a flat serve on a standard court. Give me a break. (Heaven almighty!TW at it's finest!) I DON'T.

    If you HAD the motion and speed to hit a 100mph serve, it wouldn't matter, if you hit a bit off center. You'd REACH the friggen fence. MAN!
     
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  9. fruitytennis1

    fruitytennis1 Professional

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    Just out of question when do you see mens second serves even get past a person if they dont have enough speed to hit the fence. Do you get what im trying to say? If a serve doesnt have enough speed to get to the wall how will it get past another pro?
     
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  10. fruitytennis1

    fruitytennis1 Professional

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    Oh common i wanted the first word to comment on his ridiculous comment..
     
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  11. raiden031

    raiden031 Legend

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    I guess the pros sometimes hit wussy serves during matches because I've seen some not hit the fence. First you say a 40mph serve can hit the fence, then you say we are only talking about flat serves. Which is it? I don't think any pro's second serve is below 40mph, yet I've seen some not hit the fence.
     
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  12. raiden031

    raiden031 Legend

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    If the ball is hit wide or deep then the pro would willingly let it go.
     
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  13. fruitytennis1

    fruitytennis1 Professional

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    Ive played also played on some really weird cheaplly surfaced courts.
    Flat serves just slid. Our #1 person serve is about 100 mph clocked and it would just skip on the ground and hit the fence at about 1-2 feet. Topspin serves just bounced like normal serves. Never ever want to play on that crap again.
     
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  14. raiden031

    raiden031 Legend

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    Ok I've already proven I can hit 90mph, even while in a less than ideal environment. If I can hit 90mph, why is it impossible to hit 100mph? Its not like I'm saying I definitely can, but I feel like if I relaxed a little more I can serve better than I did in the cage. But of course the highest I can prove is 90. Are you saying my 90mph serves sometimes don't hit the fence because obviously if I can hit 90mph at all, I should ALWAYS hit it according to your twisted logic. Heaven forbids I miss the sweetspot occasionally.
     
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  15. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    I highly doubt a serve leaving the racquet face at 40 mph will hit a back fence on a standard court where the fence is approx 20 feet behind the baseline. Heck many serves I have clocked that are over 70 mph and land out (beyond the service line) don't even make it to the fence on a bounce.
     
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  16. raiden031

    raiden031 Legend

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    This is why I wish I had a speed radar. Is there any way to come to a consensus on what speed a flat serve will typically just barely reach the back fence of a standard sized court?

    Wait how could you possibly hit a serve anywhere near 70mph? That must mean that you cannot hit a 100mph because if you could, then every single serve in your entire life would be 100mph and blasting the fence! (According to Datacipher)
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2009
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  17. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    ^Isn't it fairly common to take off pace for better placement and therefore better results?

    Cindy -- who doesn't understand the infatuation with hitting the back fence, who has never come close to hitting the back fence, but who still serves aces and service winners on good days
     
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  18. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    Not sure how fast it would have to be on a flat serve, but I did take some video of the ball speed when it approached the baseline a while back when I did my serve videos. I wanted to see how fast the ball was traveling when it reached the baseline. The fence in this vid is approximately 23 feet from the baseline.

    On this particular day I was hitting serves that were registering between 105 -108, which means they left the racquet between 110-115 mph.

    The radar was placed directly on the back fence, and it registered 43 mph, so it obviously lost a lot of it's original speed.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKLUEvGwIes

    In this video, the radar was placed directly on the baseline, and registered 79 mph as it approached the baseline, and you could see it hits approximately 2 feet high on the back fence.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uo4bkssVVY4

    As I said, I highly doubt a serve that leaves the racquet at 40 mph, will reach the back fence on a bounce.
     
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  19. raiden031

    raiden031 Legend

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    The reason for my infatuation with hitting the back fence (or more importantly hitting 100mph+ serves) is because it is a way for me to measure my ability to serve compared to players at various advanced levels. I have the philosophy where if I want to become an advanced player, my strokes/skills need to match those of advanced players and eventually my results will follow as I gain more experience and build consistently in these skills.

    If my serve is slower than the average 4.5/5.0 player, than it clearly means I need to work on my serve technique if I want to develop a serve that is on par with this level of player. This is obvious because my strength is certainly not inhibiting me, so it must be technique and practice.

    Same goes with other strokes. Its just a way to measure where my individual strokes fit in. It doesn't mean alot as far as my current NTRP rating, but it means alot as to what my potential level is down the road.
     
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  20. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Diff between the thinking process and ideas between guys and "Cindy" ??
     
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  21. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    "Lee," :)

    Yeah, maybe there is a difference. I mean, I understand Raiden's desire to improve and find it laudable. We are similar in that way.

    I also understand the desire to discern whether a serve is slower or faster than the average player at a higher level (in Raiden's case, that would be 4.5+ level). I mean, if they were giving away radar guns, it would be fun to see what my serve speed is just for yucks.

    I guess part of the discussion sounded a little foreign to my ears, though. When I work on my serve, for instance, I feel like I know whether I hit a good one by how the ball behaves -- whether I hit my spot, whether the ball had the desired spin, the sound it made.

    But mostly, I know whether I am getting closer to being able to bother superior players by whether my serve does in fact bother superior players. That's what I meant about aces and winners.

    I wouldn't use the back fence as a gauge of my progress because I could never reach it! But I could set up targets somewhere behind the service line or baseline and try to get my serve to bounce in the box and then clear the target. It never occurred to me to do this; I just don't see how it would help me improve my serve, you know?

    Anyway, I didn't mean to heckle or disrupt the flow or anything. I guess I figure that speed isn't everything, so the focus on speed and hitting fences seemed a unusual to me.

    Carry on . . . .
     
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  22. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Raiden031,
    this post above is much more consistent with my experience regarding est. of serve speed. You see a serve here that is nearly 80mph at the baseline area measurement zone, and it barely makes the fence as it is clearly dropping at impact.
    Working back and given this machine picks up about 10-12' out, this serve should have been at least in the 110+ range upon leaving the racket given how a ball slows. (what we get on pro stats) This ball would be around 60-mph when returned from near the baseline area, where it would have had lost approx 50% of it's speed from the racket face. This is a doc fact from Hawk-Eye. (the 50% aspect)

    A 40mph serve would have trouble reaching the baseline. I almost always agree with Jolly and he knows his stuff, but on this, I can't see it. I don't see a 70 mph flat serve hitting the fence on a normal court. Maybe the NY courts have closer fences due to space in NY?
     
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  23. Datacipher

    Datacipher Banned

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    Are you being obtuse on purpose? No, you're not are you? I have said REPEATEDLY, OVER AND OVER FORTY MPH FLAT SERVE. FLAT SERVE! FLAT SERVE! How many times do I have to say this before you comprehend it? UNREAL.
     
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  24. raiden031

    raiden031 Legend

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    I'm not really interested in any more of your belligerent responses.
     
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  25. Datacipher

    Datacipher Banned

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    I am really surprised by you Drakulie. The others, are hacks, I understand their confusion. But, it's odd you'd think this way. What do you think is the minimum speed your flat serve will hit the back fence?
     
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  26. Datacipher

    Datacipher Banned

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    WHat DO YOU EXPECT? I have said REPEATEDLY, forty mph FLAT FLAT FLAT FLAT serve. Yet, here you are, asking "which is it?". Talk about offensive and belligerent! If you can't even be bothered to read and comprehend such a simple statement....

    "As to the 40mph, I've never actually tried to measure my minimum speed to hit the back fence (I've never hit one that hasn't hit the back fence...), but I estimate around 40mph, as I've hit mid 60mph serves on radar that VERY easily reach the back fence. My warm ups are sometimes much slower than that, and they easily reach the back fence. (flat) "

    "As to pros not hitting the fence, GET REAL. First, we were talking about a flat serve. Sure, a pro, fooling around, hitting the WUSSIEST slice of his life, might not reach the back fence, but ANY flat warm up serve"

    The one thing you're right about is that if you're going to then ask me "which one is it?" in a belligerent manner, YOU don't deserve a response.
     
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  27. Datacipher

    Datacipher Banned

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    LOL. I know, it's unreal. Well....it's not any worse than his entire thread on why the "same" shot for him is not a winner against his opponents even though it's a winner against the (implied, very slow) pro players.
     
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  28. raiden031

    raiden031 Legend

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    Because what you are saying sounds rediculous. If anything, a 40mph topspin serve would be MORE likely to hit the fence than a 40mph flat serve. The reason topspin serves hit less often than flat serves is because they are SLOWER!

    Whats also rediculous is that my flat serve according to you ranges from 90mph (proof through radar) to under 40mph (your alleging that a 40mph flat serve will hit the back fence), since sometimes if I hit a poor flat serve it will not hit the fence on the first bounce. I doubt the variation is that great.
     
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  29. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    I'm not sure, but I know I wouldn't be able to hit a flat serve that reaches the back fence at 40 mph. I don't really want to get in between you and Raiden, but am simply posting my own experience, as well as people that have used my radar. Like I said, some of them (including me) are hitting 70-80 mph flat serves that are long, and they don't reach the back fence. However, you also have to consider the distance. In the vid I provided the back fence is 23 feet. I've played on courts that the back fence feels like it is going up your backside, it's that close. I would guess about 15 feet.

    I could however, probably hit a slow serve (40-50 mph) that loops fairly high over then net, and with enough spin, will reach the back fence.

    One more thing to consider. Many people over estimate how fast they serve, but also underestimate a slow serve. Perhaps what you feel is a 40 mph serve, is more 70 or so.

    Hope you guys work this out.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2009
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  30. FloridaAG

    FloridaAG Professional

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    Your only logical flaw for the reasoning behind your intersst in this is assuming that there is a clear base-line or average serve speed for 4.5 players and 100 MPH is the standard. There is a wide divergence in the serving speed and strategy among the 4.5s I play. Do some kill their serves, flat and over 100? Yes. Do most? No. Nasty kickers at a moderate pace, with a hight first serve % seem to be the way most of the guys serve. I played a benchmark 4.5 last week who hit 2 flat serves the entire match.
     
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  31. raiden031

    raiden031 Legend

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    Its a bit arbitrary, but still thats how I want my serve to be. I keep hearing about nasty kickers all over this board yet I seldom face them. I think kickers are far easier to return than hard flat serves, plus I enjoy power so thats why I prefer developing a powerful flat serve. I work on the kicker for second serve, but its never been a weapon that seems to be that effective for me or against me, except maybe in doubles where any return to my backhand is good enough.
     
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  32. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    FloridaAG, when are we going to hit again????
     
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  33. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    raiden, to be honest, I highly doubt many people here who talk about kickers have ever even faced one, much less hit one. Someone with a good kicker (ala Zptennis) found here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksdP_cocKWA are not easy to return at all. Especially with that kind of movement, and if they have good pace. Rememeber when looking at that video, that video doesnt' really do justice to the pace of the ball. Those kick serves are really moving.

    Good kickers, like the one in that vid are not easy to return by any stretch.
     
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  34. FloridaAG

    FloridaAG Professional

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    Drak - any time - leagues have tailed off so I should have more time again. Playing at Sunrise tonight probably. How about one night next week? Tuesday?

    Back on point Raiden - I respect your desire to improve and the ability to crack a hard flat serve is definitely something to have. Problem with the over 100 MPH flat serve is keeping your % up. I would much rather play against someone who nails fast flat serves - unless their accuracy is great, you can return them fairly easily and the percentage is necessarily going to be low. A constant dose of kick serves that are 10-15 MPHs slower but are in at a higher percentage bother me a lot more. I am also fairly short (5-7) so that may be part of it as well.
     
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  35. Datacipher

    Datacipher Banned

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    It is POSSIBLE Drak, as I said, I've never actually tried to measure the MINIMUM speed! But...um...I am certain I can hit it with something flat and very unimpressive! :) 80mph is moving along at a good clip for a club serve, and I am sure I don't need anywhere near that!

    I'd suggest that maybe similarly, you haven't experimented with speeds that slow either! LOL

    As far as getting between us. No worries, there IS NOTHING between us, as far as I"m concerned. Frankly, I feel Raiden is an absolutely clueless twit (speaking for myself only), and I hold you in much higher regard, having seen your serve video once. Any discussion on this, I have with you, is completely seperate in my mind.

    If I get around to the courts tonight, and get some batteries for the stand alone radar, perhaps I'll experiment and see if I can find a minimum.
     
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  36. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    Do you foot fault or do you start a few inches behind the baseline on your serve?

    Not trying to be a wise guy. I have that same little movement with my front foot as well. Just an inch or maybe two.
     
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  37. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    I understand, however, consider that if you are serving in the 110-120 range, a serve you hit that is 70-80 (which is good for a club player), will seem ***super*** slow to you, which is why I said you may be underestimating how slow your 70-80 mph serves are, and thinking they are like 40 mph. :)


    Cool. I'd be interested in seeing what the speed has to be to reach the back fence on a bounce. Also, make sure to get the distance between the baseline and fence.

    Thanks in advance.
     
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  38. raiden031

    raiden031 Legend

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    I think thats the point I'm trying to make. It is not easy to develop a kicker that is hard to return, and if it was then every 3.5 and 4.0 kicker I've faced would give me troubles. So its a difficult road either way. I'm just more into the heaters.
     
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  39. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I agree with your points here and look, most of these barely make the fence if they make it at all.
    Checked youtube and didn't see any kickers hitting 4-5 feet up the fence. Not saying there are none, but you guys really have me thinking with all these claimed monster kick serves. I've only seen 3-4 players with that kind of kicker in the last 10 years of open and league play.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2009
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  40. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Data needs to go check his data.
    As important as the distance from baseline to fence is, he also needs to explain where he is taking the radar reading from.

    this post above describes all we need to see with a 79 mph serve, measured from the opposite baseline (110+ serve) barely hits the fence.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2009
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  41. raiden031

    raiden031 Legend

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    Don't worry there is not much to work out. I think Datacipher is a little clueless in this department and a bit of a twit in my opinion.
     
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  42. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I once got my speed checked at the Acura, when it was still around here. This was 3 years back. I clocked between 78 and 83 mph, after a heavy dinner at the restaurant. A middle-aged lady consistently served in the 90s. Since then, my serve has improved considerably.
     
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  43. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    That was me.

    I'm glad you liked my serve! :)
     
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  44. fruitytennis1

    fruitytennis1 Professional

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    I reclocked my topspin and twist serves.
    The topspin was 76 max and the twist was 62 max. I dont really want to mention the flat serve which never went in. The few that went in were below 40 mph. I fail at flat serves. Anyway the guy in the vid gives justice to what a great twist serve looks like.
     
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  45. Kevo

    Kevo Hall of Fame

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    I would say very few 4.5 and 5.0 players regularly hit over 100mph. I doubt any 4.5 player I've played so far has done it in a match. It's much more important to place the serve where you think you will get a weak reply.

    I only tend to go for a big 100+ serve when I am aiming for the body and really need a point, I'm ahead in the score, or when I am upset. I shouldn't do that when I am upset either, but sometimes I can't help it.

    I also tend hit bigger serves when I am playing doubles because the net man makes it very safe since they can mop up the oddball framers that dribble over the net or end up short.
     
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  46. Kevo

    Kevo Hall of Fame

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    It's really better if a kicker has a big arc that peaks around the baseline. I've rarely been able to hit a kicker that would go 5 feet high on the back fence. Maybe a handful. I don't try to do it that often anyway. However my big flat serve regularly hits the back fence on the rise at 5-6ft.

    Also, my kick serve is by far the more effective serve. I have a better percentage with it, and I can place it well to either side so it tends to find the weaker return.
     
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  47. Datacipher

    Datacipher Banned

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    OH SEE, here, we go. I was about to say "ok, sure, I'll check it out", then you pull this attitude. Everyone knows here who is the clueless hack. AGAIN, you can't even hit the back fence consistently with your flat serve and THINK you can hit winners just like the pros, EXCEPT, gee whiz, your opponents return them. Yet, I'M the clueless one.

    UNREAL.
     
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  48. Ultra2HolyGrail

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    #98
  49. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    Just checked my e-mail again.

    Still no payment.

    Is there a problem on your end?

    J
     
    #99
  50. Ultra2HolyGrail

    Ultra2HolyGrail Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2004
    Messages:
    2,519
    Come to MN with 1k. What's the problem?
     

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