Serve speed cage

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by raiden031, Aug 2, 2009.

  1. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2007
    Messages:
    12,331
    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    I didn't realize that it had snuck into my motion I did my damndest to totally stamp it out.

    I think I have it squashed again as it is a really terrible thing for your consistency, but I start a couple inches behind the line anyway just to be sure that I don't cross it.

    J
     
  2. raiden031

    raiden031 Legend

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2006
    Messages:
    5,997
    Yes, I have the attitude! :roll: You like to draw alot of conclusions, don't you? Where did I say I cannot hit the back fence consistently? "Usually" means more often than not, which means consistently. And clearly you don't understand the point of my other thread regarding hitting winners. Maybe you should read more into the discussion than just the first post and you will better see what I'm trying to say.

    I have a quest for knowledge about this game and you have a quest for bringing people down. You sound like a real winner to me.
     
  3. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2007
    Messages:
    12,331
    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    The problem is that you made a bet, and you lost the bet.

    Now is when you pay.

    You owe me $20.

    Lets have it.

    J
     
  4. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2008
    Messages:
    10,447
    Jolly, where was the radar gun when you measured a 70 mph serve hitting the back fence or are you just estimating?
     
  5. Steady Eddy

    Steady Eddy Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2007
    Messages:
    2,546
    Location:
    Arizona
    When I brought my radar gun to my doubles foursome, only one could hit the back fence with his serve and it registered something in the 70's. I stood with my back to the fence at the time I zapped it.
     
  6. fruitytennis1

    fruitytennis1 Professional

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2009
    Messages:
    1,092
    Location:
    I wish i knew
    Just asking what does moving your foot up do???
    I guess I move my left foot up about an inch when serving, is that bad???
     
  7. mtommer

    mtommer Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2008
    Messages:
    2,802
    For the record I watched almost 10 top juniors today hitting some warm-up serves that registered low/mid sixties (the guns today were about 7-10 mph slow) constantly hitting the back fence. Many of those serves had some nice top spin on them and those hit higher than the the flat serves although admittedly the flatter ones barely hit the fence before the second bounce and most fell short of the fence. Still, it just goes to show how much spin has to do with height as opposed to speed. Put the two in combination together and that's when you see those really high balls on the fence.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2009
  8. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    May 3, 2004
    Messages:
    24,466
    Location:
    FT. Lauderdale, Florida
    ^^^how far do you estimate the back fence is from the baseline??
     
  9. magmasilk

    magmasilk New User

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2006
    Messages:
    84
    Location:
    Wash, DC
    legg mason: controlled situation to compare pros and ams

    an interesting point of reference ...

    at legg mason, after the roddick-querry match they had a speed serving competition on the center court with some VA USTA players (they won some kind of entry competiton). I found this interesting because they used the exact same speed gun that was used for the match. I always wonder how the setup of the speed cages and personal speed guns affects the results so this is nice controlled situation to compare pros and ams.

    3.5 overweight taller guy in 40's pancaked the ball and got 88
    3.5ish (not specifically said) ... smaller/shorter, late 20's with a puredrive hit 99
    lanky taller kid in early 20's, with pretty good form hit 115

    older women with no form hit 66
    4.0 woman i forget exactly but something like 70-80

    overall my conclusion bases of the match results (query/hewitt second serve in the 90's) and the serving competition is that it is not all too hard to get 100. In the course or usta 3.5 dbls (1st line so plenty of these players play up/ get bumped up) there a number of players that hit over 100 and most good flat serves in the 90's.

    p.s. the difference from 115 and 130 qualitatively seems greater than 15 mph

    p.p.s those 60ish mph serves i think bounced twice before the baseline
     
  10. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2008
    Messages:
    10,447
    From what you say here, it appears you were on the side of the net where the balls were landing correct? and your back was close to the fence or just towards it?
    If you were near the fence on the landing side and recorded a 70, this would easily be 100+ the way the pro serve are measured, which is almost immed after the ball leaves the racket at it's highest velocity. It slows drasticly from there and is only about half the speed upon reaching the returner at the baseline.
    The post above about the pro court mph readings at the contest gives a good account IMO.
     
  11. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2008
    Messages:
    10,447
    I don't see how this is consistent with your other post on the subject in the other thread where the serves were all over 100 with some barely reaching the fence.
     
  12. NamRanger

    NamRanger G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2005
    Messages:
    13,916
    If you're serving 100 you're hitting the back fence in no time. I have a friend that cranks 90+ on his kick serve (plays for Baylor) and that thing is absolutely scary when it bounces.
     
  13. mtommer

    mtommer Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2008
    Messages:
    2,802
    Rough estimate I would say 15-20 feet. I'll get a better gauge tomorrow as long as it doesn't rain like it's supposed to. As far as I know K's courts are pro regulation (if there is one). This video might (http://www.vimeo.com/5055944) give you some idea though the depth perception of any camera video is hard to tell by I guess. The camera is about a foot away (tripod legs about an inch away) from the fence. There's a serve video and my wall hitting video that I posted awhile ago too that may give you an idea.
     
  14. mtommer

    mtommer Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2008
    Messages:
    2,802
    And yet it is what it is. I don't mean that flippantly. I merely post about what I see. You have to understand that with hard flat serves the ball can slide moreso sometimes than top spin serves and that's going to affect outgoing trajectory. Also remember, with the slow speed, like I said, many were not hitting the fence. I merely mentioned that SOME, a few, were. The numbers on the gun were what they were. The resulting balls into the fence were what they were. Understand too that it's not like there weren't balls that were going higher on the fence with the harder serves. It just happened that I decided to take "official" notice for a few balls because of the thread and I reported what I saw. It's just a small sampling. Obviously it's not exact placement but I think it's pretty close.

    EDIT: I would also add that it depends on the spins. I know when I serve I sometimes get side spin instead of top spin and I think that might take away from the bounce distance (as more energy in the ball gets used for the spin but the spin doesn't cause a higher bounce like topspin). Just a thought.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2009
  15. Ultra2HolyGrail

    Ultra2HolyGrail Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2004
    Messages:
    2,519

    Why concerned over lunch money? Come get 1k. Come get some pirate, or are you a bloody scallywag?

    Vimeo vids arent working here. :(


    Btw, hit some against the wall tonight, hit a few serves on court and put one through the fence and out in the street into the gutter, different fences have bigger holes, some fences there is no way you can put a ball through..
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2009
  16. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2007
    Messages:
    12,331
    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    It is a matter of character.

    Pay.

    I can have my mother call you up and explain this to you if you would like.

    She is a very nice lady and explained very clearly why it is important to live up to your end of bargains many years ago to me.

    You ran your mouth, you lost.

    Now pay.

    J
     
  17. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2007
    Messages:
    12,331
    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    Just estimating, but I can do an experiment.

    Serves may be faster or slower, but 70ish seems about right.

    Usually I put the radar right at the net, and figure it looses about 10%.

    J
     
  18. raiden031

    raiden031 Legend

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2006
    Messages:
    5,997
    Interesting read.
     
  19. aptennis91

    aptennis91 Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2008
    Messages:
    350
    Jolly, your serve reminds me of Safin for some reason..
    Maybe the clothes, but the trophy pose is similar..
     
  20. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2008
    Messages:
    10,447
    If you get a chance, I'd like to hear what you find, even though I'm pretty sure the ball has lost more than 10% by the net area, especially if you are using an older speedtrac. I've seen the graph where the speed is noted along the path of the normal 1st serve. While there is a pretty big loss on the bounce, some of the quickest losses are right after impact where wind resistance is at it's greatest. Like in bike riding, wind resistance is very little factor up to 17-19 mph, but starts to make an extreme impact around 21-22mph and is nearly overwhelming in the high 20s and up.

    also setting a speed trac on the ground near the net pretty much assures that you don't get the direct measure that most of speedtrac radars require. It is quite amazing how challenging it is to get it set up for good capture. Unlike accounting for decelleration of the ball, there is no good way to account for losses due to ball angles relative to the radar.

    I think a guy like you hitting in the 120 range, can be shocked how easy it is for you to hit serves 95-100mph.

    (note-this is not about special spin serves like the kick, as there is no rule of thumb in this case)
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2009
  21. Steady Eddy

    Steady Eddy Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2007
    Messages:
    2,546
    Location:
    Arizona
    Yes, I was standing with the fence close to my back. (I don't want to get hit by the ball.) That's good news for us. I thought this guy hit his serves with alot of pace. Mine would show readings in the mid 50s. Does this mean that they might in the 80s the way pro serves are measured?
     
  22. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2008
    Messages:
    10,447
    probably more like 90+! depending on how far out your radar gun picks up. Most only pick up about 8-10 ft out from the gun and there can be problems as the ball is constantly slowing very fast as it arrives.

    A serve slows my almost exactly half by the time it gets to the normal return position (near the BL).
    So a 100mph serve (as measured for the pros) will only be about 50-52 at the returner. Does this help?

    Disclaimer for all those who have their exceptions to rules of thumb: if some special force, (heavy headwind, high altitude, special spins, tornado, LoL....etc..) is present, we would call that an exception to the rule of thumb.
     
  23. dennis10is

    dennis10is Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2005
    Messages:
    2,033
    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    Dude, you lost. So pay up. It is is matter of principle. If you are a man of your words pay him what you owe him.

    You said you bet 20 bucks that Jolly won't dare post a video of him serving. Well, even BEFORE you made that post, Jolly provided a link of him serving. So, you lost, because you didn't even bother readings his post #14 on thiis thread, one page before! That's clear cut, you lost. So pay up.

    Pay Jolly $20 and then he'll give his 1K to a third party, AND YOU put up your 1K and let's get i on! DireDesire is willing to oversee the match.

    Right now "You are writing checks you body can't cash". Man up.
     
  24. skraggle

    skraggle Professional

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2005
    Messages:
    1,437
    Nice post and it needed to be said, but you're wasting your time. I initially thought this poster was one of the bigger clowns on TT, but the more I see from him/her, the more I'm convinced the poster is a little kid or has mental issues.

    Mature, responsible men just don't handle themselves that way.
     
  25. mtommer

    mtommer Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2008
    Messages:
    2,802
    Hey, hey, hey, hey........hey. I'll have you know that I have hit a golf ball 280 thank you very much. Now, granted, it was two balls out of an entire bucket and most of mine were typically between 240-260 but by golly I did it! (Of course I hit a few that didn't pass 100 soooo....:shock::oops:)
     
  26. Ultra2HolyGrail

    Ultra2HolyGrail Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2004
    Messages:
    2,519

    No, you ran your mouth saying you where going to play me for 1k and you would pick me up at the airport, kept running your mouth asking where i live, etc. Acting like you can really beat me and are too ignorant to just back down but you had to accept the challenge like you can actually play. Still waiting, i will pay in the 1k before you fly in, make it happen or quit your talking...
     
  27. Ultra2HolyGrail

    Ultra2HolyGrail Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2004
    Messages:
    2,519

    Blah blah more talking from you. What else can you do?
     
  28. Ultra2HolyGrail

    Ultra2HolyGrail Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2004
    Messages:
    2,519
    I knew jolly would cry over $20 but refuse to play when it really counts. Jolly flys all over to meet people, so it's not a problem for him.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2009
  29. mtommer

    mtommer Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2008
    Messages:
    2,802
    Bets do not supercede each other. If Jolly reneged that doesn't mean, if you are a mature adult male, that you reneg on yours. It isn't about Jolly. It's about you. Even if you two had played and you won and Jolly refused to pay, you still owe Jolly $20 because of what you said in this thread and the bet you made. It's called being a man. You can't control Jolly's actions but you sure as h*ll can control yours. It's not about fair, it's about maturity. U2HG, you got caught runnin' your mouth. $20 is a cheap price to learn never to do so again. I'm sorry to say it but pay up.
     
  30. Ultra2HolyGrail

    Ultra2HolyGrail Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2004
    Messages:
    2,519
    I know i might have a bad attitude, but i don't hide it and say what i think. People might hide it but you can usually tell a persons true colors even if they put on a act, trying be a standup, respectable person. Funny how a tennis match usually will clear that up..

    I know jolly dont care about $20, it's just a easy way for him to try to make me look bad, all along dogging the issue that he is ignorant and make bets like 1k that he never intended to back up about someone who he has never seen play and has no clue about their ability, all along knowing that person has seen his vids, and technique.
     
  31. Ultra2HolyGrail

    Ultra2HolyGrail Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2004
    Messages:
    2,519

    Try 70-90's. Bragging about serve speed is like bragging how fast your car can go when you never see it's top speed in day to day driving... If you can hit 100-130's consistently in a match then you are talking, but if you can only hit 100-130 the hardest you can hit and in a real match never reach those speeds due to unconsistentcy whats the point? For some it's a real achievement to hit 100mph, and post a vid, buy a radar gun, and brag about it like it's some kind of achievement. Nolan ryan can pitch a baseball over 100mph. Venus williams, a girl, can serve 128mph. A man bragging he can serve faster than a man pitching a baseball or serving less than a girl is not too impressive.

    Only the wannabes, posers, look at me i'm no good players will do that.
     
  32. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2008
    Messages:
    10,447
    I don't think I got the point of all that, but it mostly seems to be correct.
     
  33. skraggle

    skraggle Professional

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2005
    Messages:
    1,437
    I pay up when I lose a bet, which is more than you can say.
     
  34. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2007
    Messages:
    12,331
    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    Ya I looked through a bunch of guys, and my serve is I think most similar to Safin, minus the sliding the back foot.

    Especially the arm position after impact.

    J
     
  35. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2007
    Messages:
    12,331
    Location:
    Long Island, NY

    I'll check it out tomorrow, and report back.

    Entirely possible I am underestimating, I have been shocked at how fast some of my 2nd serves came in.

    J
     
  36. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2007
    Messages:
    12,331
    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    I most certainly do care.

    Now pay up.

    J
     
  37. aptennis91

    aptennis91 Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2008
    Messages:
    350
    First, I don't know if u can consider Venus Williams a girl :)
    Seriously though, those pros do exercises and workouts DESIGNED to improve serve speed. Their living depends on the extra 5mph.
    We just play recreationally so...
    Why do you think Nolan Ryan and Venus Williams are so rich?
    It's because they do what no others can do.
    If that's the only way to have "real achievement" then wow, I'm sorry but that's basically saying "my life is a complete failure"
     
  38. aptennis91

    aptennis91 Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2008
    Messages:
    350
    IMO, if u don't want to pay then just stop posting... Don't try to defend yourself because clearly you bet on something knowing what the conditions were and it did not matter if Jolly knew he had posted his vids.
    If I bet Lebron James that he couldn't dunk, and he agreed, I would still have to pay him.
    A bet is a bet, you lost a bet, you should pay but you don't want to.
    Then just say you don't want to pay and stop trying to defend yourself.
     
  39. dennis10is

    dennis10is Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2005
    Messages:
    2,033
    Location:
    Long Island, NY

    Actually, it was YOU who said that Jolly was a fake and that you bet 1K that you would beat him. Jolly took you up on it and it took a lot of prodding from us for YOU to finally accept.

    He said that he would pick you up at the airport if you come to the NTC to play but you said you were afraid to fly. So, Jolly said he'll come to Minesota or Wisconsin or some state near by so you can take the train or drive there or take the bus. Who knows whether you can even travel.

    We wanted to come along and watch and video tape the match BUT it was YOU who declined. Dude, I want to come along to video the match and post it but you said no.

    YOU are the person who claim to have better stroke and game but it is YOU who never post any vids, pictures, to back up you claim.

    What are you anyways a little kid? I'm get that feeling because you won't post vids of yourself, can't fly, can't pay 20 bucks.

    I'm so disappointed. You were my hero! :( I thought you would show up in NYC, beat Jolly and I can get these two Russian models to join us as we celebrate but if you are a kid, these Russian hotties don't "teach little boys to be men".
     
  40. dennis10is

    dennis10is Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2005
    Messages:
    2,033
    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    Agreed, it is much better to make claim that you are better without providing any evidence or make a bet that when you lose you don't pay up.

    Pay Jolly or my cousins will have to find you. They'll charge you interest and penalty fee, in addition to labor, travel and expenses. It'll cost you. Now, I can get you a 10% discount because they are family but it will still cost you.

    We may outsource to the Chinese, the Indians or the Irish, and I am not too sure our family has finalized the SLA (Serve Level Agreement) with these business partners so it may be unduely rough on you.
     
  41. Ultra2HolyGrail

    Ultra2HolyGrail Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2004
    Messages:
    2,519

    That's the difference between me and jolly, i don't need to prove to anyone how good, or bad i am. Not saying people that post vids are trying to prove anything though, or try make themselves look good on the internet. Some will be good, and bad. Some do try to make themselves look good, some post for the fun of it.
     
  42. Ultra2HolyGrail

    Ultra2HolyGrail Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2004
    Messages:
    2,519

    Well, bring 1k to MN and find out, pretty cut and dry.
     
  43. Ultra2HolyGrail

    Ultra2HolyGrail Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2004
    Messages:
    2,519

    Now you know why i don't want you comming.
     
  44. ubermeyer

    ubermeyer Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2009
    Messages:
    2,176
    Location:
    Texas
    you were pretty small in 7th grade
     
  45. Datacipher

    Datacipher Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2004
    Messages:
    4,611
    So NOTHING, no reply, Raiden? LOL. Well, serves me right for wasting any time on you, or trying to treat you like a man. (i sent him a message and made a video...)
     
  46. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2006
    Messages:
    15,093
    I, uh, doubt that Raiden is taking your calls. :)
     
  47. thejackal

    thejackal Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2004
    Messages:
    2,885
    Location:
    Montreal, Canada
    went to the serve cage at the rogers cup today. took a couple of nice easy swings at the ball and got 105. I think its pretty representative of the kind of pop I can get off a normal first serve. the guy in front of my got 115 but it looked like his rotator cuff was gonna bite the dust the way he armed that ball, so I felt the need to not risk anything.
     
  48. Datacipher

    Datacipher Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2004
    Messages:
    4,611
    Incorrect. He did. However, I asked him NICELY, to admit after that:

    1.I was right that a serve could be VERY slow and hit the back fence.

    AND

    2.apologize for accusing me of lying, when I said that I don't recall not hitting the back fence with even warm up serves

    Apparently, this is not agreeable to him. It would require being "stand up", so this does not suprise me.
     
  49. raiden031

    raiden031 Legend

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2006
    Messages:
    5,997
    He sent me an offline message but I didn't respond because I didn't want him to know my email address. :)

    Ok so you sent me a video but I could not even see the ball at all because of the quality of the picture. Therefore I can't make heads or tails of it.

    Here is what I dispute. You said that a 40mph ball can hit the fence on the first bounce. I know for a fact that I can throw a ball 50-60 mph, yet I have hit plenty of serves faster than that which will not hit the fence on the first bounce. As others have stated through their own radar gun experiences, I would bet the minimum speed for hitting the fence on first bounce on a standard court is probably around 80mph, not 40mph.

    No way any of my serves are under 40mph, even the worst ones.
     
  50. Datacipher

    Datacipher Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2004
    Messages:
    4,611
    First, I DID NOT ASK YOU TO RESPOND by personal email. You sent NO RESPONSE through a thread or message or TW.

    Second, I specifically apologized for the unclear video, as I said, it was taken on a cell phone! HOWEVER, I'd say it's DARN OBVIOUS, I am NOT hitting the ball hard. I dont' know how to make it any more obvious. You "can't make heads or tails out of it"??? I guess this is similar to your "gee, I watched the pros and they hit winners JUST like my shots that aren't winners..." I used a child's racquet with broken strings, and a warped wooden racquet with broken strings for heaven's sake. I served from my knees, I served facing the net, what more do you want?!

    Third, I didn't say ALL forty mph serves would hit the fence, I said (and restated in my message to you and in this thread) that, forty mph is an estimate, but in any case "VERY SLOW", was the MINIMUM to hit the fence. I am sure, you have hit faster than 40mph and hit the fence.

    Fourth, YOU STILL think 80mph is the minimum. Does this mean, you think I'm hitting 80mph in my video??!! Good gracious....what does a guy have to do???

    Fifth, EVEN if you mistakenly thought I was hitting 80mph in the video, you COULD AT LEAST concede that I was telling the truth and that you FALSELY accused me of lying when I said all my flat warm-serves hit the fence.

    The last remark is telling though, you interpret this as meaning you are serving under 40mph and therefore are refusing to acknowledge anything. First, it doesn't mean that. Second, even if it did, good plan. Hope it helps you sleep at night.

    You really have shown what kind of a weasal you are here. I sent you a nice msg AND a nice video, and this is what I get? WEAK.
     

Share This Page