Serve Supination vs. Pronation

[Ramirez]

Hi all,

My friend is working on his serve pronation. It is because, quite clearly when you watch the Pros serve in slow motion, they almost always pronate. Pictures such as this one shows clear pronation http://adhd-tennis.org/images/pronation.jpg

However, when I serve, to get the spin, I tend to supinate..... I find that my supination allows me to generate spin on my serves. Is this supination uncommon?


Ramirez

 

[plasma]

at the club level it's totally normal not to have that pro serve follow thru motion exaggerated pronation (often enhanced by a backhand grip, although the two photos you showed looked mostly continental). Unless you are above 5.5 rated; pronation is nitpicking. It is one of the most complex facets to the most difficult strokes to master. I have taught tennis and worked with the NCAA and PTR since 1995. I would only discuss advanced pronation principles in detail with a 5.5+ (and I am EXTREMELY technical with all students), as other elements of his/her game are more in need of tweaking...it's truly technically surpassing the club level of play. Great question, your follow thru is normal...feel free to post a vid and I will evaluate it...

 

[ramseszerg]

at the club level it's totally normal not to have that pro serve follow thru motion exaggerated pronation (often enhanced by a backhand grip, although the two photos you showed looked mostly continental). Unless you are above 5.5 rated; pronation is nitpicking. It is one of the most complex facets to the most difficult strokes to master. I have taught tennis and worked with the NCAA and PTR since 1995. I would only discuss advanced pronation principles in detail with a 5.5+ (and I am EXTREMELY technical with all students), as other elements of his/her game are more in need of tweaking...it's truly technically surpassing the club level of play. Great question, your follow thru is normal...feel free to post a vid and I will evaluate it...

Interesting.. Would you mind sharing what you talk about in regards to pronation with your 5.5+ players? How does one achieve pronation? What other aspects of the stroke are required for it to happen?

 

[oldhacker]

Sorry but I really cannot follow what you are talking about here. If you have even vaguely correct serving technique your forearm will be supinated during the racquet drop phase and will pronate from there on the forward swing to contact. If you do not pronate from there you will hit the ball with the edge of your frame (or miss it completely). I think it is impossible to supinate to contact because you would be turning your racquet away from the ball.

In case you have got your definitions wrong pronation is turning your FOREARM from the ELBOW joint from 'thumb up to thumb down' and supination is turning your FOREARM from the ELBOW joint from 'thumb down' to thumb up.

Hi all,

My friend is working on his serve pronation. It is because, quite clearly when you watch the Pros serve in slow motion, they almost always pronate. Pictures such as this one shows clear pronation http://adhd-tennis.org/images/pronation.jpg

However, when I serve, to get the spin, I tend to supinate..... I find that my supination allows me to generate spin on my serves. Is this supination uncommon?


Ramirez

 

[plasma]

recently worked extensively with highly ranked 17 and 18 year olds headed to top 3 positions at D1 schools...I get the pronation question a lot....first I would demonstrate the rotation of the palm without a racquet. Then I would show the proper grip and demonstrate how to move the whole body without injury. Pronation is the effect of the stroke, not the cause. You'll find the kick serve with racquet head speed. I've even known D1 guys who lock the arm to achieve topspin, either way the pronation doesn't cause the kick, so working on pronating is somewhat surreal and dangerous; as it is the outcome and not the cause.
For a 2.5 (total beginner) we show how the racquet looks like it's going to cut the ball in half and then the arm pronates 90 degrees and snaps.
For a 3.5 (beginner) we show how the racquet drops behind the back and the face rotates to impact
For a 4.5 we show how a forehand grip prevents wrist snap and teach the rudiments of pronation and proper grip
For a 5.5 who wants more spin we tell them to focus elswhere in the motion and service technique.
For a 6.0+ we work on pronation for added pace. At this level the rock back, tossing arm, leverage from ground, hip rotation, last miunute shoulder rotation, pace, spin trajectory, loosness, consistency, intensity of the serve are all well past 5.5, the student can safely use isolated racquet motions and angles that we demonstrate as we know that he/she knows how to produce them safely, accurately and effectively
pronation happens naturally by the arm being loose and the body rotating and thrusting towards the ball...

 

[Steady Eddy]

For a 2.5 (total beginner) we show how the racquet looks like it's going to cut the ball in half and then the arm pronates 90 degrees and snaps.
For a 3.5 (beginner) we show how the racquet drops behind the back and the face rotates to impact

A 3.5 is a beginner?

 

[plasma]

no 3.5 is beginner intermediate, sorry for my blunder, is that a maltese? I used to have one that I rescued!!!(Daisy)

 

[sh@de]

Ah thanks plasma. I'm around 4.5, I suppose I won't bother with pronation anymore .

 

[oldhacker]

plasma - please can you explain what you mean by 'wrist snap' in the following sentence? I think you mean to say pronation. IMO it is very dangerous to mix the two up. The wrist is passive in pronation and only rotates as a result of the forearm rotating from the elbow. ' Wrist snap' makes people think of flexing the hand forward from the wrist joint. Trying to do that consciously on your serve is a recipe for a seriosu wrist injury for mosy players.

For a 4.5 we show how a forehand grip prevents wrist snap and teach the rudiments of pronation and proper grip

 

[Steady Eddy]

no 3.5 is beginner intermediate, sorry for my blunder, is that a maltese? I used to have one that I rescued!!!(Daisy)

Yeah, 'cause on a 7 point scale, 3.5 right in the middle, so wouldn't seem to be a beginner. I'd even say intermediate. 4.0s and beyond aren't often found on public courts, IMO.

Yes, that's a Maltese. Here's mine. He's a rescue also!

 

[5263]

Hi all,

My friend is working on his serve pronation. It is because, quite clearly when you watch the Pros serve in slow motion, they almost always pronate. Pictures such as this one shows clear pronation http://adhd-tennis.org/images/pronation.jpg

However, when I serve, to get the spin, I tend to supinate..... I find that my supination allows me to generate spin on my serves. Is this supination uncommon?
Ramirez

I think what you are doing is carving around the outside of the ball for your spin. It works pretty well and gives you solid spin, but at the expense of lots of you power. This type of serving pretty much ensures you will be serving less than 100mph.

To get big spin and serve in the 100s, you pretty much have to pronate to get that kind of power AND Spin. It's that next level of serving beyond the avg club level.
But I will say that the club level has improved greatly due to sites like this and tennisplayer dot net.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Supination of the forearm are used by many, if not all, compenent servers prior to the pronation. The pronation happens on the upward swing ot the racquet to the ball (after the racquetr drop). In order to get the racquet in a position to execute the pronation, the forearm is first supinated (rotated in the other direction). This usually happens during the racquet drop and/or prior to the racquet drop.

 

[aimr75]

at the club level it's totally normal not to have that pro serve follow thru motion exaggerated pronation (often enhanced by a backhand grip, although the two photos you showed looked mostly continental). Unless you are above 5.5 rated; pronation is nitpicking. It is one of the most complex facets to the most difficult strokes to master. I have taught tennis and worked with the NCAA and PTR since 1995. I would only discuss advanced pronation principles in detail with a 5.5+ (and I am EXTREMELY technical with all students), as other elements of his/her game are more in need of tweaking...it's truly technically surpassing the club level of play. Great question, your follow thru is normal...feel free to post a vid and I will evaluate it...

hadnt really thought about this aspect of serving, probably hard to tell but what do you see in this vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9WcMjS6c1Q

(or anyone else that cares to comment)

 

[Ramirez]

Sorry but I really cannot follow what you are talking about here. If you have even vaguely correct serving technique your forearm will be supinated during the racquet drop phase and will pronate from there on the forward swing to contact. If you do not pronate from there you will hit the ball with the edge of your frame (or miss it completely). I think it is impossible to supinate to contact because you would be turning your racquet away from the ball.

In case you have got your definitions wrong pronation is turning your FOREARM from the ELBOW joint from 'thumb up to thumb down' and supination is turning your FOREARM from the ELBOW joint from 'thumb down' to thumb up.

Please do look at 5263's response to my posting. He is refering to exactly what I am doing... going solid spin but little power. And yes you are right, I hit the ball with the edge of my racket frame and carving the ball.

 

[sh@de]

Hey Plasma, just out of interest, if you pronate too much and force your arm into an uncomfortable position, is it possible to hurt the ulnar side of your wrist? I think that's what caused my injury.

 

[plasma]

sh@de and old hack are very wise. Focusing on wrist snap or pronation is dangerous, like focusing on the arm instead of the body in martial arts...it could cause a blow out... Most beginners use a forehand grip, this prevents the wrist from folding and staying loose and inhibits the range of motion needed in a proper serve.. At 3.5 we like to adjust this grip, most 4.5 have at least a continental. I think many club players hit too hard. I often see 5.5's hitting much harder than top pros who I watch in person at tournaments, chill out, don't be a pusher, but no need to kill the ball either. It aint boxing, there's no KO in tennis...