serve - swing up with 'pre-supination'

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by luvforty, Jan 31, 2013.

  1. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    seems much easier to get a whip effect this way.... but is there a concern for injury here?.... i.e. the 'Tommy John' surgery.
     
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  2. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Interesting, but I don't know what you mean by "pre supination"
    I swing semi pendulum down and back to a bent elbow trophy position, with my hand as low as possible maybe next to very tilted shoulders. Lotsa archer's bow.
    I can also serve almost as fast, maybe sometimes faster by lagging the hand ala Roddick (bent wrist, but relaxed), which seems to allow the whip effect naturally.
     
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  3. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    he means to manually put supination in your motion before you swing up thereby supposedly giving more pronation...

    which is a bad idea that nobody does and will only tighten up your arm and decrease consistency due to numerous factors
     
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  4. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

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    McEnroe's serve is kinda like that. Check it out. Supinated at trophy. And you can practice pronation using just shoulder and arm this way. keep your elbow at shoulder level though.
     
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  5. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    Good servers have some supination at the end of the drop because their wrist is loose and timed correctly with the torso rotation.

    Not sure about Mac. I'll have to check that out.

    edit: Mac has supination
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2013
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  6. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Some pros do it. I don't recall right now. Their serves have more spin and less pace.
     
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  7. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

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    and of course Edberg had supinated trophy position as well.
     
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  8. Cheetah

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    i think OP is talking about supination at the drop, not in trophy position
     
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  9. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    marcelo rios' serve, i am not sure, but seems he swings up with the back of the hand facing the ball.

    this is basically to make sure that at the racket drop the tip is pointing to the outside
     
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  10. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    yes at the drop, so initial part of the swing up feels like the back of the hand can see the ball.
     
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  11. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    The major motion of the serve is Internal Shoulder Rotation (ISR). To use it the most effective way we should apply External Shoulder Rotation (ESR) as much as possible. Then ISR rotates the racquet in “horizontal” plane around 90°. Pros usually use the same angular amount of ISR (90°) because it is very difficult to control.

    They also use the same toss for different direction of the particular type of serve. How are they able to change ball outgoing direction? IMO the easiest way could be forearm supination. If you want to hit to the right, there would be a little or no forearm supination. If you hit to the left, there should be considerable forearm supination.

    Thus, we can use forearm supination as some kind of very good tool to control the direction of movement of the ball.

    Btw, forearm supination has nothing to do with whip effect.:confused:
     
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  12. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Is it supination, or is it LESS PRONATION, that allows a rightie spin serve to go more to the left.
     
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  13. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    It is less ISR. Usually armatures use this approach to hit slice, because they don’t know how to use wrist ulnar deviation to hit powerful slice serve. Instead they desynchronize ISR (“horizontal plane”) and arm rotation in “vertical” plane. :confused:
     
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  14. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    OOOOOO kay....:???::???::-?
     
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  15. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    i am talking about supination at the racket drop... so when you swing up, there is pressure building up in the forearm to make it pronate.

    this is like the martial artist throwing in a waist high punch, he'd start with the fist facing the sky... so he throws the punch and the pressure builds up in the forearm to make it pronate... when he hits the target, the palm faces the ground if he opens the fist.
     
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  16. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    no way. nobody uses supination to control the direction of the ball.
     
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  17. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Funny thing that....
    My Dad was a 4th degree black, from SouthernChina.
    He taught us all to hit like that, short belly punches. He also said it makes no difference if the palm faces up, sideways, or down at it's initiation. The palm up is more to do with integrating TaiChi and flow to the overall ready position than is needed for the actual punch.
     
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  18. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    i can see no difference between up and sideways..... but facing down to start, that is like hitting a pancake serve lol.
     
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  19. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    As usual you produce a lot of emotions but zero proof.
    There is example for you, ITF Coaches Education Program, (Biomechanical principles for the serve in tennis, 2007) stated, “Pronation of forearm does not gives power but realigns the racket face”. See please http://www.itftennis.com/shared/medialibrary/pdf/original/IO_24976_original.PDF.
    Thus forearm pronation/supination is responsible for ball direction.
    You should read serious literature or made your own research before you state something about “nobody”. :evil:
     
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  20. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    According to all scientific researches pros use forearm pronation/supination exclusively for proper racquet orientation during contact. This is really very very very important idea.

    In picture below Henin is going to hit overhead smash into left corner of the service box. That’s why she uses “crazy” forearm supination, as much as possible.

    If she was going to hit to the right, I’m sure she didn’t use forearm supination, but forearm pronation. All these staff should be done at the racquet drop position.
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2013
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  21. Cheetah

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    The paper you provided talk about how pronation does not give power. It does not mention anything about 'supination used for controlling ball direction". That's your own faulty conclusion. Surprising you could claim this as "proof". I thought you were a physicist.
     
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  22. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    please provide even one example of any pro/scientific paper/coach/article/magazine/video where anyone says 'supination is used to control ball direction' and I'll concede.
    I'll bet you can't find any. As usual.
     
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  23. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    Do you agree that forearm pronation can control racket orientation - thus the ball direction? :confused:
     
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  24. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    Wait how exactly do you supinate during an overhead?? :confused:
     
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  25. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    We are talking about supination, not pronation.
    Are you aware that you don't need to supinate in order to pronate? They are 2 separate movements. The picture you gave of Henin is not even a 'standard' overhead. It looks like she was lobbed effectively and had to back up and is not in ideal position and hitting while backing up and is getting the racquet on it any way possible.

    I'm still waiting for any reference that says 'ball direction is controlled by supination'. It should be easy to find since you said "according to all scientific research...". Just show me one.
     
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  26. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    At the racquet drop position the plane of the racquet string bed defines direction of the arm swing in “perpendicular” plane. ISR rotates 90°, then these two motions would be synchronized and produce maximum of the RHS.

    Marco Chiudinelli serve illustrates this idea. He hits into right corner of the service box.

    [​IMG]

    In picture below Federer hits to the right and uses a little forearm supination. Henin hits to the left and she utilizes “crazy” supination. This way they control azimuth ball direction.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2013
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  27. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    I asked you the simplest possible question. I ask you again. Do you agree that forearm pronation can control racket orientation - thus the ball direction? :twisted:
     
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  28. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    Where is all the scientific research?
     
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  29. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    Can pronation control racquet orientation? Is that a serious question?
     
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  30. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    toly thanks for the pictures....

    leaning with cheetah on this one :) ...... the ball direction is controlled by timing the pronation right? FYB has a clip about kick serve that mentioned this, which makes sense to me.

    to me supination is really just a move to put some pressure on the forearm to make it snap over faster, if anything, i think supination helps hitting to the RIGHT...... seemingly to me i can pronate faster with the 'loaded arm' :)
     
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  31. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

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    What is this considered?

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2013
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  32. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    bartoli has 175 IQ, we cant possibly know what she is 'considering' there lol
     
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  33. USS Tang

    USS Tang Rookie

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    I am really confused by all the technical jargon. Can someone explain, perhaps in simpler terms, what it is I need to do?
     
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  34. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

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    Good luck with that. lol.

    "the most delicate tennis player in the world". Heck, let's start simply with a explanation of what the heck that means.
     
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  35. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

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    Do you have any pics of what this looks like? I'd like to try it.
     
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  36. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

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    check tube for mc's serve and go frame by frame and see at or near trophy his racquet is pointing not up but straight back. I think such technique is more suited to much heavier racquets.
     
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  37. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    well, i was talking about at the racket drop and initial part of the up swing... but mac is a good example

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cz51ZowmDig

    at about 0:08, initial part of up swing, it seems the BACK side (not the hitting side) of the strings can see the ball.
     
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  38. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

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    Yeah I see what you mean. I am trying to get this part of the serve down as well. It seems as if I will get it for a bit and hit real big, clean serves and then it's gone and I lose the motion. super annoying.

    I have to clean that up or my serve will continue to be at the cusp of being a weapon.
     
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  39. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    my serve is on the cusp also lol...

    that Tomaz guy's minimum effort drill helped... now it feels like a relaxed throw, with the edge (or even the backside slightly) addressing the ball at the racket drop... and the snap will happen.

    now i just need to put the toss in the right spot lol.
     
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  40. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

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    where is the minimum effort drill? Is that the one that has you start at the racquet drop or is there another one?
     
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  41. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    Last edited: Feb 1, 2013
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  42. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

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    Sweet..this guy delivers every time.

    Yes you want to keep grip loose because the racquet will drop further just due to that hinging effect.
     
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  43. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    You are mostly talking about maximization of power of the serve. Let’s assume you can hit 150 mph serve and you are very happy about that. Then I ask you, what is the best way to control azimuth direction of the ball?

    I suggested we should use forearm pronation/supination for direction control and ISR for speed of the ball.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2013
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  44. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    no you said 'supination'. also in a previous thread you said "we should not use pronation in the serve. we should instead use supination'.

    i'm still waiting for the scientific research that states supination is used to control the direction of the ball.
     
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  45. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

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    I still want to know what defines a player as "delicate".
     
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  46. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    Forearm pronation and supination have reflection symmetry. If forearm pronation can control racquet orientation then it is absolutely obvious that forearm supination can do the same.

    About forearm pronation and ESR scientific articles see corresponding Chas Tennis posts.
     
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  47. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    I’m old russian man and English definitely doesn’t like me. So, you tell me please what is wrong with this word. :confused:
     
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  48. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    DELICATE.
    LeeD.
    Play singles against a peer, 2 sets, can't play for another 3 days.
    Get hit by a car, bone break.
    Fall forwards off a motorcycle, collarbone break.
    Delicate.
     
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  49. Cheetah

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    Nope. supination turns the face away from the ball and is finished before contact is made and by then the face is controlled by other actions. Not supination.

    Chas tennis's posts? Is that your 'scientific research'? Once again.. we are talking about your supination claim, not pronation.
    I've read all of Chas tennis' posts. Nowhere does he or any other coach or any other member here or article or video or magazine or tv show or book or commentator ever say that ball direction is controlled by supination.

    Why don't you copy one of his posts here to illustrate your point?
     
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  50. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

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    It sounds like you are either fragile, feminine or you play a game built around drop shots and pushing. It's a curious adjective.

    Anyway, the main question here to me is post #1. And the answer seems to be "don't do that".
     
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