Serve Tips? (Video attached)

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by mptennis, Jun 5, 2013.

  1. mptennis

    mptennis Rookie

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    I was just hoping that I might get some good tips just to make my serve a better weapon. I've recently just got back into playing after a 4 year hiatus (went to a small college and there weren't many people that played) and I'm trying to get serious about it, and I feel that my serve just leaves a lot to be desired. I'm a bigger guy, about 6'2" and 220 (trying to cut that down though) and based on that size I don't feel like my serve is as big or heavy as it should/could be. I know placement, variety, and consistency are more important than pace but I was just hoping that there might be someone out there that could identify a few things I could improve on or do differently on my serve. I pretty much taught myself in high school, no instructors or anything, so I feel I could easily be missing some important aspects of a good service motion. I appreciate all constructive criticism, or I suppose just any criticism in general, thanks!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqvoJY3PF0I&feature=youtu.be
     
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  2. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    You seem to know what to do, just a matter of doing it consistently all the time.
     
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  3. Larrysümmers

    Larrysümmers Hall of Fame

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    Last edited: Jun 5, 2013
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  4. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    I don't like your takeback - too whippy.:twisted:

    But on a serious note, I think your shoulders are a little horizontal during the motion. I think with a more aggressive leg push and more of a shoulder-over-shoulder motion, you could up your pace. I agree with Larry that getting the tossing arm up higher and longer would help this general change. You're getting decent pop as it is, but I think you could kick it up a level.

    Keep practicing and good luck.
     
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  5. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Nice motion, relaxed, easy swing, no effort, you can serve like that all day.
    But, nice motion, relaxed, easy swing, no effort....that is the problem, no effort, easy swing.
    Swing faster, then the technicalities come up, like throwing your hip forwards, angling upwards, more leg drive, more consistent leg thrust.
     
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  6. mptennis

    mptennis Rookie

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    Lee, the leg thrust has always been the most difficult for me, just doesn't feel natural. So I just bend at the knees on the toss and then try and explode through the ball?

    WildVolley, I agree with you about the takeback. The first time I saw it I just thought it looked very very dainty, but I'm not sure what to do different. And could you elaborate on the shoulder-over-shoulder motion? Are you saying when I hit the ball I should rotate my torso so that my shoulders would be perpendicular to the court as opposed to parallel?
     
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  7. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    The takeback is mostly just for style as long as you hit the proper trophy/power position, so don't worry too much about it.

    Shoulder over shoulder just means that rather than having your shoulders parallel to the court during the motion, you should start with the toss shoulder going high and the hitting shoulder low and then they should change places as you go into the motion.

    Look at this video of Sampras hitting a few warm-up serves.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqRqdbBEzUM

    Notice how his hitting shoulder goes over the tossing shoulder at contact. It really isn't perpendicular to the court because in 3D everything is at an angle to the court (you sort of lean your torso over to get this motion, which protects you from lifting your arm too high in the shoulder socket). This is just the way that most of the big servers hit.

    Realize that Sampras is exceptionally athletic in his serve. Most players don't have that much leg thrust or lean, but it is still worth noting, and something you should experiment with.
     
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  8. mptennis

    mptennis Rookie

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    After watching and comparing both videos it makes so much more sense, thanks. I suppose to do this I'll need to get my toss up a little bit? Seems like that ball isn't in the air long enough to give me the time to rotate properly. If weather permits I'll get out on the court after work and try and tweak it. I appreciate all of the suggestions!
     
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  9. andrewpmast

    andrewpmast New User

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    What transformed my serve overnight was rotating my grip to a more continental and keeping the racket loose in my hand. Also, hitting "upward" (vertical). Serving is like throwing, so I often just throw tennis balls using the natural wrist/whip that throwing a ball does. Then, after it's warmed up, put a tennis racket in my hand and do the same throwing motion.
     
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  10. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    This ^.

    Additionally it looks a little front on. At the most extreme he's only just gone past side-on with his torso. Showing his back to the net more would increase (in theory) the potential for the shoulder cartwheel motion. I know plenty of pros don't show any more (Berdych for example) but it's still something to consider given how many great servers do get around more.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2013
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  11. mptennis

    mptennis Rookie

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    So to do this do I just need to rotate my torso on the toss, or actually change my standing position at the beginning of the serve? Watching this video of Federer (I love his serve, looks so natural), it seems like his body is turned a little more away from the court, and on the toss he turns his back toward the net post, whereas my back faces just the next court.
     
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  12. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    I think in the first instance you should concentrate on the shoulder-over-shoulder cartwheeling. It is part of the same aspect of serving and one which would help most club players to put some effort into.

    Regarding your stance: Someone like Roddick would get the turn even using a similar stance to you at the beginning of his serve. Others would be more back-on - John McEnroe being an extreme of being back on at the beginning. Federer, as you say, is a quite side on. That video of him is a superb video of how he serves. There's so much to crib from that footage too, you can see how the fundamentals of his match serve are still very much there even when he's just warming up.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2013
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  13. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    You'll never figure out the technique you need to serve fast until you start to swing faster, then find out what helps the ball go even faster.
    Right now, you're doing relaxed, easy serves.
     
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  14. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    To be fair, I watched the whole vid..... this time.
    The last 5 or so, you seem to decide to swing somewhat faster.
    Inconsistency is your enemy. You hit all over the racket, try all sorts of serves, use different techniques.
    Lower racket hand, you are not a Navritilova clone. If you don't like the feel of pushing upwards to jump up into your serves, at least drive into the court consistently on every serve.
    Turn much more sideways on the prep position, which automatically get's your racket back and your shoulder's set.
    Toss height is fine.
    TRY hitting a few full out, then reign it in until you get the control you want.
    Right now, there is little control, but you're swinging only 70% fast.
    Tons of potential, but raw right now.
     
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  15. Shangri La

    Shangri La Hall of Fame

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    Minimal leg drive has always been a big problem of my serve (amongst many other). I watched my own video and made one change - keep tossing arm up a bit longer. Then knee bend became a lot more natural. Not sure if this will work for you, but it helped me. Overall you have a nice and smooth serve.
     
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  16. mptennis

    mptennis Rookie

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    I appreciate all the feedback guys. I got out on the court today and mainly hit with a friend, but I did get some serving in and tried to incorporate a lot of the things that have been mentioned. Hopefully I'll have a video up tomorrow night in case you want to see if there is any improvement. Thanks!
     
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  17. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    There is some debate whether lift or foreward drive is more important on the tennis serve.
    Lift gives you higher strikepoint, a good thing.
    Forward drive doesn't, but taking you into court, maybe the forward contact point adds momentum, shortens ball travel distance, and cut's off the angles, allowing to make up some contact point height loss.
    I"m 64, can't run one step. I lost my 9'7" contact point maybe 30 years ago, after my unsuccessful motocross career (lotsa crashes..:)). But, serving from 1992 until today, the speed is about the same, the leg drive all but gone.
    So, what's more important? High contact point, or more forward contact point which might boost serve speed and might shorten reaction time for the opponent?
    I do notice ALL the pros on TV really make it a point to raise the toss arm as high as possible, almost hold it a millesecond, before they swing at the ball with the other hand. Is this so important, or is this something taught nowadaze?
    Naturally, I cannot raise my toss hand much over my head....rotator cuff worn.....makes for interesting toss locations.
     
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  18. GoudX

    GoudX Professional

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    The thing that jumps out to me is the low contact point, and lack of knee bend. Try to fix the first by throwing the ball about a foot higher on impact. You won't notice an immediate difference, but once you get it well drilled it will give you more consistency and more options.
     
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  19. mptennis

    mptennis Rookie

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    Well I took another video today, but after watching it, it doesn't seem all that different from the first one I posted after all. (It's here in case you're curious.) I still need to keep my tossing arm up longer, which I felt like I was, and I'm getting absolutely no knee bend. I do know that in practice (I played doubles for about 4 hours Saturday night) I have been getting some more action on it when I rotate more, but for some reason today when I took the video I just forgot about it. I'll get another one up soon.
     
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  20. Lukhas

    Lukhas Legend

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    ^Maybe you're hitting down a bit instead of throwing your racquet towards the ball, but you seem to get it in consistently. I'd check your feet balance though. Your front foot moves a bit toward the baseline when you serve, making your feet wider apart than at the start and slightly unbalanced. You're not really using your feet, your serve is mostly upper-body, but you get some good action on it. I listened to Roddick's advice on it: toss, down, and up. No need to do it quickly like him, but that's how it feels for me.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wkah8U1GQ_k

    Of course, concentrate on leg drive only if you have mastered what's happening in your upper body.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2013
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  21. mptennis

    mptennis Rookie

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    What do you mean when you say "throwing your racquet towards the ball"? I've never heard that concept. I purposely hit the ball down because I thought that's what you were supposed to do...
     
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  22. corbind

    corbind Professional

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    I have to ask what is the elevation where you live? I cannot understand how you're getting so many balls to bounce that high on the back fence with seemingly minimal effort!

    Much to your credit, I've never seen anyone get so much velocity with almost no leg power or knee bend. That to me says you would be wrecking tennis balls (and that back fence) if you did bend your knees.

    All in all I think you do a great job of working with what you have. They seem to be pretty beat up are those high school or public courts?
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2013
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  23. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Looks like you're just going thru the motions, not caring about how or where you hit the ball.
    Think about this..... when you play a set, you get to hit your first serve, and if you miss it, you get ONE other serve to start the point.
    Now, would you just mindlessly hit your serves in that scenario?
    Your serves go all over the place, and I KNOW you're moving it around, but why not hit ONE spot over and over until you get it, then aim for another spot over and over until you get THAT location, then start mixing them up.
    Your practice serve percentage can't top 30%, and there is no pressure whatsoever.
    And, you're just going thru the motions, not swinging hard or fast.
    Once you tune into some discipline, you have the potential for 120 mph flat serves and shoulder high kicking second serves around 75 mph.
    But right now, your'e doing neither.
     
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  24. cluckcluck

    cluckcluck Hall of Fame

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    Imagine what you could do with a bit of knee bend.
     
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  25. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Remember MOP, the 6'3" dude around 230 lbs. who showed service vids indoors?
    Same build.
    Take away MOP's leg drive, and you still get a 120 mph serve. Some big guys just have live arms that allow the racket head to achieve high speeds.
    OP needs much more practice to approach MOP's serves, but the potential is there.
    If you don't remember, MOP was a 5.5-6.0 level player who could bounce 8 out of 10 top/slice serves around 40" high at the backwall.
     
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  26. mptennis

    mptennis Rookie

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    Corbind, I live in Mt. Pleasant, TN, and a quick Wikipedia check says the elevation is 676 ft. Does that really make much of a difference? All the balls I'm hitting are extremely dead...that entire hopper is about 3-4 months old and has been rained on a good 3-4 times. The courts are our local high school's but they are the only public courts as well. They got resurfaced maybe about 10 years ago, but the city won't pay to have them taken care of again, and the school can't afford it. We also don't have lights due to the expenses to get our broken ones fixed.

    I'm not sure who this MOP you're talking about is. I have a friend who played in college, very solid player and he was talking to me about it the other day and one of the things he mentioned to me was having a loose grip and being loose with your arm. I'm very tense and I squeeze my racquet to death when I serve (a few years ago it was about 105 outside and I broke a racquet when it slipped out of my hand on a serve, so ever since then I use the death grip) so maybe there is more potential right there if I loosen up.

    Can anyone give me some tips on the leg drive? I went out today and really focused on that (rain cut me off after about 20 minutes) and it just doesn't feel natural at all, feels very forced. I'm not a very explosive person at all, so I just don't get off my feet very fast as I try and explode through the ball. Any suggestions on how to work it in? I think I'm trying to completely change my mechanics rather than slowly work some things in. I'll try and get another video up tomorrow evening that shows my difficulty with the knee bend. And I'll try and get my racquet grip a bit looser to see if that helps.
     
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  27. mptennis

    mptennis Rookie

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    LeeD, tomorrow if I'm able to get out and hit some I'll try to slowly progress through the service box, from left to right, rather than just seemingly randomly placing them.
     
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  28. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    I was giving you props comparing you to MOP.
    You're a newbie here, MOP was posting maybe 3-4 years ago. A bit of an annoying ego, but a solid tennis player with a huge serve. You guys are the same size and build. He was out of shape also.
    I wouldn't worry about driving your body upwards just yet. Get some accuracy, placement, consistency, and pace and spin first, then if you care, add the legs The leg drive mainly gives you a higher contact point, so the court opens up for you.
    Right now, work on a consistent, 48 out of 50 topspin/slice/kick type serve you swing 90% speed, and also work on a fast heater into wide right, wide left, and up the middle of the service court.
    I use almost no legs at all, haven't been able to run in 7 years now, I"m aged 64, really skinny and weak, and hit well into the 100's on my flat serves.
    Having powerful quick twitch legs is nice, but we can't all be BrianBattisone clones. Nor we need to be.
     
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  29. Lukhas

    Lukhas Legend

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    #29
  30. corbind

    corbind Professional

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    Yes, elevation makes a big difference. If you were in say Denver serving with normal (low elevation balls) they be sailing fast and powerfully. I figured your bucket of balls would be dead so that made it even more confusing. If you did nothing else with your serve you're still doing better than so many tennis players.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2013
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  31. mptennis

    mptennis Rookie

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    Yesterday I went out and it some serves (no video) and really focused on hitting into the ball, rather than over the ball. Can someone tell me if that's the right concept? Originally, I tried to force the ball down into the court, so I made sure I was hitting over the ball, which I believe might caused me to not be able to swing so hard. After watching the videos Lukhas posted, I really focused on hitting up and into the ball. It seems counter-intuitive, but based on my understanding is that when I'm supposed to do? Do I transfer my energy up and into the ball? It's hard to explain, maybe I should make another video with examples of each.

    I do know that yesterday was the first day I've had pain in my elbow, and I don't know if that was because of poor technique, or because I was able to hit the ball a lot harder. I ended up having to stop after about two hoppers of balls because of it.
     
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  32. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    You should never hit even 1/4 a hopper worth of serves at full speed. Full speed is saved for match play, and maybe 7 practice serves each day.
    That's your problem as I see it. You have great potential for the biggest serve here on TW, but you practice mindless serving.
    You need discipline. You need to warm up, light stretch before practicing serves. THEN, you hit a few, like EIGHT serves with 3/4 swing speed. THEN, you lightly stretch again and am ready to serve.
    You only have 4-6 FAST swings in you. So practice that many, NEVER more, in any 15 minute session. Make the fast serves AS FAST as you can hit, full concentration, no mindless hitting.
    Then practice your second serves. Those are top/slices/kicks that are swung at 80% swingspeed, CONTROLLED and at least 85% need to go IN, or within 2' of where you aimed it. Those you can hit 50 in a row, but get 40 IN at least.
    Now do some other hitting before going back to your fastest swing, first serves.
     
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  33. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    As for technique, someone already mentioned it. Swing upwards, allow the slightly closed face, tip of racket leading, to bring the ball into the court.
     
    #33
  34. mptennis

    mptennis Rookie

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    Thank you so much for this, LeeD. I haven't thought of it like that, but you're right; I practice mindless serving. I never stretch and I've just been trying to get my pace up, haven't been focusing on placement or spin variety. I've been swinging pretty hard as well. What you posted, with the step by step description of how to practice the serve is just what I needed.

    I'm gonna get back to the basics, focus on the fundamentals that have been discussed in this thread, and then after nailing those down I'll work on the pace some more. Thanks.
     
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  35. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Keep in mind, with your live arm, you size, and your current technique, with just a month of practice, you will be hitting into the 120's regularly. You have the potential to hit really BIG serves, or serves as big as anyone who's not a 5.5 level player.
     
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  36. corbind

    corbind Professional

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    I'm not on a computer so quick reply. Serving is particularly hard on the arm (golfer's elbow) because of the intense ball/string impact. Most good servers hit very high closer to the racquet tip. That causes the butt of the racquet to vibrate and jar the arm a bit. I'll edit this later.
     
    #36
  37. charliefedererer

    charliefedererer Legend

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    You liked the video Lukhas posted on "The Upward pitch in the Serve".

    "The Serve Doctor" undoubtedly was behind the following video as well, even though Nick narrates it.
    Nick Bollettieri-Sonic Serve.wmv http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajoZ0f7hw-A
    I would have you go to 3:07 into the video where the perspective is of a player looking up at the ball.
    This is how YOU should be looking up at the ball if you get a steeper shoulder angle and more knee bend.
    Looking up from that steeper shoulder angle and deeper knee bend the ball looks farther away, and it really seems like you have to hit up to power the ball.



    This video explains pretty well the importance of getting more loading from shoulder/hip coiling, a more pronounced bow shape, and more knee bend.

    The above body movements are related:
    - it is impossible to coil more without bending your knees
    - the steep backward lean of the upper body to get a steeper shoulder angle demands that the front hip protrude out further to provide counter balance.
    So it is not so much as sticking that hip out there, but of allowing it protrude out for balance so you don't fall backward as you go into a pronounced bow shape.




    In keeping with what LeeD said about practice, if you want bigger body movements like in the above video practice your swing without tossing a ball.

    Indeed, it is a great idea to practice your new serve motion at home so you can build up some "muscle memory" before hitting the courts where it is all to easy to revert to your former serve.

    Once at the court, try doing several serve motions without a toss with your new motion until you are confident you are incorporating all the elements into your serve, and you are able to do so smoothly.

    Only then should you actually try serving a ball.

    Try taking at least one practice swing before each time you actually do a real serve hitting a ball - otherwise you will quickly fall back to your old serve.



    You will have to adjust your toss to your new swing.

    But adjust the toss so that the height and placement fit in with your new swing - don't adjust the new swing or develop a hitch to accomodate a new toss.


    Good luck!
     
    #37
  38. Nellie

    Nellie Hall of Fame

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    I see your serve as mostly arm/shoulder based. You could get better pace by getting more torse/core involvement. Note that your shoulder rotate maybe 30 degrees during the entire serve and that your feet never change location during the serve. Toward this end, some things I would change about your serve:

    1) when serving the ad (left) court, start with your shoulders/knees pointed at the right netpost to get more shoulder rotation. This may change your timing slightly (requiring you to keep the tossing arm up longer between the toss and contact).

    2) get that toss a little more forward (a foot in the court). You don't want to change how you are hitting the ball (don't want to be falling over), but instead, bend the knees slightly and push forward with your hips so your body in moving into the court to meet the new ball toss location. Get those 220lbs behind that tennis ball!

    About practice, do take it easy. Don't worry about speed, but instead, really try to be loose and hit with good form. Google videos of a pro practicing, and you will see that they are going 75% but still able to hit bombs.

    Also, some of your serve have a nice slice/curving action to them. Try to get that more consistently by carving the racquet up and around the side of the ball (think of peeling the side an orange with the racquet). You will actually hear a swish sound if you brush enough. In my opinion, a power slice serve hit with your pace and height would be extremely tough to return.
     
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  39. mptennis

    mptennis Rookie

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    I have a personal problem of not taking little steps in anything I do, but rather trying to skip them all and take one big leap. I decided for reworking my serve I was going to just take baby steps. Today I went out and really focused on getting my hip up on my toss and just working on general consistency. You can't really notice the hip on the video since it's from behind, but I could personally tell a difference. After watching the video, I see that I'm still not keeping my toss hand up long enough, so I'm gonna keep that in mind next time I go out (tomorrow).

    As for this hit, I didn't try and hit the ball, but rather make solid contact and really transfer my energy up and into the ball, rather than over it. It might be placebo, but I could feel a difference. None of these serves were hit at full speed. Actually they were probably 60%, just really thinking about the motions and mechanics.

    The video is divided in three parts kind of. The first I focused on serving near the center line, the second was body serves, and the third was out wide. I also have decided to go bring my feet together rather than apart like I was previously doing. I've found that that forces me to bend my knees a little more. After I get my toss and hips movement down, I'm going to try and focus on getting a deeper knee bend.

    The video is longer than my other ones, but I tried to take my time and not rush, which I tend to do (although I do rush at some points). Anyways, thanks for the tips thus far, I'm not going to do daily videos since I'm sure that'll get old real quick, but I'm going to try and post a weekly video in case your curious, and I think it'll be cool to kind of see the progression over time. Thanks!
     
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  40. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    I think Lance's ball toss height is fine. It leaves the screen, drops more than 2', before contact.
    Tanner, Ivanesivic, Rudseski all had what was considered "low" tosses, and served just fine. They tossed much lower than OP.
    Lance does "arm" his serves. Lucky he has a live arm. He can turn his body more closed, so he rotates INto his serves. More important, I think, without a good knee spring, is a solid consistent forward drive into the court, so every serve ends with him landing 18" inside his baseline, then before complete recovery, 24-30" inside his baseline.
    He lacks that right now, inconsistent forward movement, almost no upwards spring.
    Given that, most of us would like to have his live arm and height.
     
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  41. Nellie

    Nellie Hall of Fame

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    Your timing is off - start sideways, push the hips forward through the baseline (left butt/hip in front), and then serve. Compare to you serve in which you push the hips forward after serving (both knees in front).
     
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  42. mptennis

    mptennis Rookie

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    LeeD, you have mentioned multiple times that I have a "live" arm. What exactly does that mean? I have an idea based on context clues but I'd like to know what all it entails when you say that.

    As far as landing inside the court, rift now I'm tossing the ball more straight up as opposed to out in front of me. For some reason when I toss it in front of me I don't keep it high, so that's why I'm not moving into the court. I got to overwrite a lot of muscle memory to get that toss right. Practice makes perfect though!
     
    #42
  43. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    "live arm" means you don't have to try any, and still hit a hard fast spinny serve.
    Lucky you.
    You should have played shortstop or pitched in school.
     
    #43
  44. mptennis

    mptennis Rookie

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    I'm sorry, Nellie, I'm not sure if I quite understand you. When you see push my hips forward through the baseline, are you saying for to move them left towards the baseline? And you're suggesting that I do this before I begin my toss? Right now I toss, then basically lower my right hip while raising my left hip, then hitting the ball. And what do you mean "both knees in front"?

    I quit baseball in 6th grade, just never enjoyed it. Picked up tennis in 9th grade and never looked back, but I appreciate that compliment. I do play a little rec league softball in which I've surprised some guys with some decent throws in from the outfield.
     
    #44
  45. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Yeah, your serves show you can throw pretty well.
    Once you add the thigh push, consistent forward movement, a little more torso rotation, and a high hand, high elbow finish, you'll see your serves pushing a couple levels above your play level.
     
    #45
  46. mptennis

    mptennis Rookie

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    High hand, high elbow finish? What do you mean? I'm sorry, all this terminology is above me.
     
    #46
  47. mptennis

    mptennis Rookie

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    Would any of you agree with what the guy is saying in this video?
     
    #47
  48. BullDogTennis

    BullDogTennis Hall of Fame

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    Lance, next time I'm in town we need to hit! looks like you are getting back into it!

    Blake H.
     
    #48
  49. mptennis

    mptennis Rookie

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    Well how about that, didn't know anyone else from the area was on this site. Sounds good...me and Kody have been hitting pretty often, and another guy...need one more for some good doubles. I'll PM you my number.
     
    #49
  50. BullDogTennis

    BullDogTennis Hall of Fame

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    I don't use this very often anymore, I used to be a real regular back in my high school days, I learned a lot from some of these guys and girls!

    but for what its worth, ( I didn't really read anyone elses comments so I may just be beating a dead horse) it looks to me like you are relying on your height, and not enough on leg drive and carrying your momentum through the court. I also notice you are dumping a few in the bottom of the net, which is a clear sign of dropping your front shoulder (arm) too early.

    few things to remember that I have always kept in my head that have helped me a lot especially in matches when things want to collapse:

    if you are dumping serves into the net you are probably dropping your shoulder too early.
    if you are hitting deep, you have probably gotten lazy (or tight) and arn't swinging as fast as you should be.

    it's pretty obvious in the video you have pretty fast swing speed, just think if you got your legs into it!
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2013
    #50

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