serve video slow motion 120fps looking for comments to improve

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by taurussable, Sep 24, 2013.

  1. taurussable

    taurussable Professional

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2012
    Messages:
    1,295
    back view slow motion
    http://youtu.be/PQHdIpTE2LQ
    back view normal speed
    http://youtu.be/8UG8g4jz6qs


    left view slow motion
    http://youtu.be/SvZt6KwEONE
    left view normal speed
    http://youtu.be/Xaftn6XCg3c

    some earlier videos
    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=477220
    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?p=7669753

    any observation/critique is appreciated!!

    list of stuff need to work on from fellow tt members and hitting partners:
    will try not to foot fault
    keep feet stable
    feet leave ground not consistent
    tossing arm not tucked
    shoulder angle at contact, avoid impingement
    elbow not straight enuf approaching contact
    head sinking too quickly
    inconsistent toss, tend too low, too much to the left, not enugh inside the court.
    trophy position
    overextention of right pec
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2013
    #1
  2. Lack

    Lack Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2013
    Messages:
    211
    Try not to foot fault :)
     
    #2
  3. BIGJ98

    BIGJ98 Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2013
    Messages:
    191
    Location:
    Southern California
    Yes try not to foot fault and keep your feet stable in one position. No feet movement will greatly enhance the consisentcy of your serve
     
    #3
  4. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    Messages:
    4,284
    Location:
    Baltimore, MD
    1) Sometimes both your feet don't leave the ground, but not always.

    2) Tossing arm brought down to side 9 times & 4 times it goes behind you. Also, limp. Might relate to how you are moving your trunk forward. ?
    The service motion for pros has the tossing arm always tuck in front, often across the body, with some intent. See pro videos linked below.

    3) The racket-forearm angle at/near impact seems to have a reasonable angle to it. But check more serves as it might be varying.

    4) Shoulder angle at impact did not look bad, but always check yourself. Search for the Ellenbecker video on shoulder orientation to use while serving to minimize the risk of impingement. Your angles did not look bad from what I could see _ but watch the Ellenbecker video.

    5) Approaching contact your elbow is not straight as early as the pro serves. Watch how straight the pros's elbows are. The arm goes up, gets about straight, the racket-forearm angle is at about 90°. Then the arm rotates as the racket forearm angle decreases to say 30°, (varies) at impact. The final approach to the ball takes only 20 milliseconds for pro serves, see Raonic serve below, so you have to be on automatic and not expect to think through this extremely rapid motion. (Considering the shoulder joint ISR & wrist joint motions, the racket head sort of 'spirals up' to impact. But lasting only about 1/4 second as played back at 30 fps from the 240 fps recordings, it can be hard to see. See 420 fps Raonic video.)

    For example,
    https://vimeo.com/27528701

    Raonic serve spiral up.
    https://vimeo.com/66720474

    See the other pro videos
    https://vimeo.com/user6237669/videos/page:4/sort:date

    (To do stop-action single-frame on Vimeo press the play-pause control as fast as possible.)

    There is nothing forced - don't put the arm up, try to force a turn, etc. It should flow on its own as a final result. But check your serves against high level serves.

    Get a clear understanding of what internal shoulder rotation is. It is clearly shown in most of my Vimeo pro videos. Watch carefully for the very fast arm axial rotation as indicated by the bone shadows of the elbow. Also the stretch shortening cycle where stretched muscles are used for rapid joint motions.

    To video your serve better:

    1) Your view point behind the server was good. Move the camera closer, the higher the better. Frame to get the complete foot to racket plus a little more but consider the distortions from the wide angle lens......

    2) Shoot videos in direct sunlight (a sharp shadow will be cast). With more light the automatic exposure control of your camera will pick a fast shutter speed and you will get much less motion blur.

    3) You might wear a sleeve-less shirt to show how your upper arm rotates, or put a piece of tape at your elbow as a marker.

    4) Take some videos from the side. Probably perpendicular to the ball's trajectory might be better than along the baseline.

    What camera did you use?
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2013
    #4
  5. taurussable

    taurussable Professional

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2012
    Messages:
    1,295
    Thanks Much Chas. Will do.
    I was using Gopro remember I mentioned in another thread:)
     
    #5
  6. McLovin

    McLovin Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2007
    Messages:
    3,191
    If you do this, I believe one thing you will notice is your ball toss. Judging from where you start and where you land, I'd guess your toss is either straight-up or worse, behind you. Ideally, if you toss the ball but don't hit it, the ball should land ~ 1-2ft inside the court.

    Two other things to note:
    1 - While you got better as the serves went on, you should try to get a full arm extension at contact point. The first couple your arm was still bent when you made contact w/ the ball.

    2 - Try to keep that left hand up a little longer. It will help w/ balance, as well as power.

    3 - The abbreviated, straight-up takeback motion is good, but you may want to sync it up w/ the ball toss. You're bringing the racquet up, then starting the toss.

    A good reference for all 3 of the above suggestions is Patrick Rafter's serve:
     
    #6
  7. taurussable

    taurussable Professional

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2012
    Messages:
    1,295
    Thanks, Mclovin!

    will take note, film sideways and post back.

    Ultimately I want a long take back like Federer's, I am practicing with abbreviated take back because I feel the long take back screws up timing sometimes. But I'll finally try learn a correct long take back.
     
    #7
  8. suryanaga

    suryanaga New User

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2013
    Messages:
    27
    Location:
    New Brunswick, Canada
    Little observation, your serving arm goes past the plane of your shoulders (overextension of right pec), I've been told to keep my shoulders and arms in line with each other during the trophy position.

    No suggestions, take this with a grain of salt.
     
    #8
  9. taurussable

    taurussable Professional

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2012
    Messages:
    1,295
    this is actually very good point. I noticed that before and I know it is bad. any drills/mental hints to fix that?
     
    #9
  10. Power Player

    Power Player Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2008
    Messages:
    20,008
    Location:
    On my iPhone
    I do the same type of serve motion and the main thing is to keep the racquet moving at all times. It looks like you are pausing. there is no real trophy pose. It is simply a freeze frame shot.
     
    #10
  11. taurussable

    taurussable Professional

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2012
    Messages:
    1,295
    Thanks Power Player,
    I bring my right arm up first to simplify the motion. Is this the pause you meant?
     
    #11
  12. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2008
    Messages:
    10,419
    I think if you can get more legs involved, then it will help your racket drop
    to be lower behind your back and raise your contact point.
    This will give you a longer power stroke, while also giving you a better angle
    to the svc box.

    Also you could use a bit of ISR near contact, which also could be aided by getting
    the legs more in it Imo.

    Overall I thought it looked pretty nice though! :)
     
    #12
  13. Power Player

    Power Player Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2008
    Messages:
    20,008
    Location:
    On my iPhone
    Yes, but that is ok, I do that too. It just seems like you pause right after. The motion you want is to bring the arm up and then bring the racquet back over your head into the racquuet drop, then swing to contact - all without a hitch or pause. If you are doing this, than it may just be the slo mo throwing me off, but it looks like you pause and lose racquet speed.

    I think the ISR that was mentioned will come from this. At least, for me it did.
     
    #13
  14. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2008
    Messages:
    10,419
    Likely the racket drop would benefit as well from your suggestion.
     
    #14
  15. McLovin

    McLovin Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2007
    Messages:
    3,191

    Yes, this is what I meant in my #3 suggestion when I said he needs to sync it up w/ the ball toss.. Compare to the Rafter video I posted, who's racquet is continually in motion.
     
    #15
  16. taurussable

    taurussable Professional

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2012
    Messages:
    1,295
    I think I got it regarding the "sync up" and pause now.

    will research ISR. Thanks again. :)
     
    #16
  17. taurussable

    taurussable Professional

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2012
    Messages:
    1,295
    updated with side view. Please critique. Thx!
     
    #17
  18. martini1

    martini1 Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2008
    Messages:
    3,173
    Rec games don't call for ff enough. That is the prob!
     
    #18
  19. taurussable

    taurussable Professional

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2012
    Messages:
    1,295
    sometimes it is my toss too inconsistent, need move my foot to catch the ball lol.

    fixing my foot will have additional benifit fixing my toss.
     
    #19
  20. McLovin

    McLovin Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2007
    Messages:
    3,191
    OK, this view gives a good indication of what I meant when I said:
    One convenient item about your camera placement is that the far lamppost aligns perfectly w/ the baseline, so we can get a nice look at the toss' trajectory.

    Look at the serves at timestamps 0:30, 0:46 & 2:28. Follow the balls trajectory and notice that is pretty much follows the lamppost up & down. As a result, all you energy is going up when you hit it.

    You get better at 1:10 & 1:28, but your footfault pretty much negates the toss as you've compensated for the toss into the court.

    Toss' at 1:46 & 2:10 are real good, but again, you're not leaning in due to the footfault, and your energy is going up, not into the court.

    Again, using Rafter as a reference, see this video:
    Notice how much his toss goes into the court.

    If you must step forward, then take a slight step back when you start your toss (ala Ferrer). I suspect, though, that the reason for the footfault is you are actually tossing the ball correctly, but aren't comfortable leaning in, so you step forward to compensate. Focus on a toss into the court, along with keeping your front foot stationary, and you'll see much better serves.
     
    #20
  21. suryanaga

    suryanaga New User

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2013
    Messages:
    27
    Location:
    New Brunswick, Canada
    Perhaps try serving from a trophy position without using any knee bend, and try to generate power from the inner shoulder rotation/pronation alone. See if you can cut out everything but that action and isolate it. Once you can do it without having to overextend your chest, add in your torso rotation. If you can do that without any inefficiencies in your motion, add in your leg bend. Then, add in your service footwork (platform or pinpoint positioning). Then finally, add your racquet take back.

    Again take this with a grain of salt, and consult a pro as needed.
     
    #21

Share This Page