She was 99.9% sure

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by jc4.0, Jun 25, 2009.

  1. jc4.0

    jc4.0 Professional

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    I must admit, I hate a bad line call. I don't think my opponents are intentionally cheating me - I just think sometimes they don't get a good look at the ball. When I get hooked, I let it go because it's unpleasant to argue, and one bad call won't usually lose me the match.

    But here's what really bugs me - the player who "thinks" my ball was out. When I call a ball out, I say "out" immediately because I'm sure it was out, 100%. If I hesitate even slightly to make the call, I give my opponent the point. What do you do when your opponent doesn't seem at all sure "in or out" - but takes the point anyway? Or worse, has a conversation with their partner, who didn't have a good angle to see the shot anyway? This happened to me yesterday.
     
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  2. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Oh, my gosh, this bugs me so much!

    I see it all the time in non-competitive matches, which makes it all the more irritating. There is nothing on the line, so why do you have to think so hard about whether a ball was out? It seems to be the same people who do it again and again, too.

    I find that few people do this in USTA league matches. 'Cause they know all the dithering will lead to a fight.
     
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  3. Commando Tennis Shorts

    Commando Tennis Shorts Hall of Fame

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    I agree with you guys. The ball is in unless you are completely sure it was out
     
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  4. JRstriker12

    JRstriker12 Hall of Fame

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    If they hesitate, I usually remind them, that the code says they should give the benefit of a doubt to thier opponent on line calls. I won't argue, but I'll say something like:

    "Are you sure? Remeber, the ball is in if you are not 100% sure."

    And leave it at that.
     
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  5. Romeo

    Romeo New User

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    99.9% means the ball is good. Has to be 100% to be out.
     
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  6. Douggo

    Douggo Semi-Pro

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    Agreed on the 100% sure thing, but I'm going to stick up for the late-callers. For some reason, when I'm focused on setting up to hit the ball, it takes me a second to process what I've seen. Now, I realize that if I've just hit the ball into the net, the rules don't allow for me to then call the ball out and take the point. But lots of times, I'll hit the ball and then be 100% sure it was out. How would you all react to that?
     
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  7. Commando Tennis Shorts

    Commando Tennis Shorts Hall of Fame

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    I actually agree. As long as the opponent calls it in a timely manner, I have no problem with what you've just described. Of course, then the question becomes, what is a reasonable amount of time?

    I've actually run into some problems with calling shots late. I have a bit of a stuttering problem when I'm stressed or excited, and sometimes I'll be trying to call a shot out and I just can't get the words out of my mouth so I'll just continue playing so that my opponent doesn't get pissed at a late call. lol. It sucks sometimes.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2009
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  8. Perry the Platypus

    Perry the Platypus Rookie

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    The phrase "I think it was out" is one of the things I least like to hear on court. Bottom line is that if you think the ball was out - it's in. For it to be out you have to know it was out.

    In my opinion once the words "I think" come out related to a line call then the ball must be called in.
     
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  9. blakesq

    blakesq Professional

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    No such thing as 100% sure for close calls. You may be 100% sure that the ball was out by 1/2 inch, and you might be 100% wrong.

    All you can do is your best. If your best call is that it was out, stick with that call. If your best call is that it was in, stick with that call. If you are 99% sure that a close ball was out, then that is plenty good enough. If you are only 50% sure that the ball was out, then, i think you have to play it in (give your opponent the benefit of the doubt).

    So, the question is, at what point of your sureness (100%, 99%, 98%, etc etc) do you give your opponent the benefit of the doubt. Thats were the argument comes in. The best I can say is that if I am "pretty sure", i will stick with that, because I am never absolutely sure when it comes to close calls. And if I am not sure, then I give the benefit of doubt to my opponent.

    And by close calls i mean balls within 1 or so inches of the line, when I am right on top of it. If i have to make a call from the other side of the court, then close calls can mean 4-5 inches from the line.


     
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  10. Commando Tennis Shorts

    Commando Tennis Shorts Hall of Fame

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    A ha! So you're the one...:)
     
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  11. MesQueUnClub

    MesQueUnClub Rookie

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    Yesterday I played on clay and my opponent serving at 40-30 calls one of my deep slices out and wins the game. I was sure that it was in as I came to the net with the shot hoping to put the volley away. So right after the point was over and since it was time to change sides, I went straight to where the ball hit the court and sure enough there's a mark about and inch inside the baseline.
    I didn't say anything and I just stood there with my arms folded and he knew exactly what happened and didn't say anything either. At the time this happened it was the first service game of second set after I took the first set 6-2. This happened atleast 5-6 more times in the next 2 sets. I didn't say a word or dispute a call but was frustrated and missed a lot and lost the next 2 sets and lost the match. On top of everything he was a pusher. I am still fuming about this....

    Back on topic, If there is any doubt in my mind, I play the ball or give the other guy the point. This doesn't mean that I am always 100% right with my calls as there is not such a thing.
     
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  12. JRstriker12

    JRstriker12 Hall of Fame

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    Did you ever ask him to show you the mark on the questionable calls? If you knew it was in, why did you wait to check the mark after you lost the game and switched sides? If they did it 5-6 more times, why didn't you check the mark?

    It's one thing to accept an error or two, it's another to have some one hook you and not say anything about it.

    It also sounds like you were frustrated by this person's style of play. "Pusher" isn't a dirty word if you are consistent and can keep the ball in play.
     
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  13. precision2b

    precision2b Semi-Pro

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    I agree I do the same thing. I played one guy a couple of times who on a regular basis will say “I think/maybe I seen color between the ball and line”. Never I think/maybe it was in. Drives me nuts!!! I usually don’t say anything, just try not to hit so close to the lines. The last time I played him he started the same thing and after I hit one down the line. I was standing on the line and he was mid court and the ball hit the back of the line. He started that crap “well I think” and called it out. I asked him if he wanted to use a ruler next time??? He got mad. Haven’t played him since… :oops:
     
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  14. JRstriker12

    JRstriker12 Hall of Fame

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    Yes bad calls happen. Yes, you can be 100% sure the ball was out, but missed a call in reality. Happens. I can live with that. Even lines people miss calls, so I can expect more mistakes from a player running around a court.

    But based on the code "pretty sure" is not good enough. 99% sure = not sure, so it's your opponent's point.

    Basically, if there's any doubt (even 1%) it wasn't out.
     
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  15. blakesq

    blakesq Professional

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    "The code says NOTHING about being 100% sure."

    I stand corrected, the codes says the following:

    "An official impartially resolves a problem involving a call,
    whereas a player is guided by the unwritten law that any doubt must be
    resolved in favor of the opponent."

    So if I see the ball hit "out", i will call it "out", even if my lying eyes cannot be trusted. If i cannot see the ball hit "out", i must play it in.





     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2009
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  16. CrocodileRock

    CrocodileRock Rookie

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    I don't like some of the things Billie Jean King says, but one quote I've remembered is "If it's 99% out, it's 100% in."
     
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  17. DownTheLine

    DownTheLine Hall of Fame

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    It depends where the match is, if I would let it go or not.
     
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  18. Mick

    Mick Legend

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    i agree: if there is a doubt about an out call, even if the doubt is only 0.1%, the call should be "in"
     
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  19. MesQueUnClub

    MesQueUnClub Rookie

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    I agree with you that it was a mental error on my part to get frustrated and that frustration lost me the match. If I kept my head, even with the bad calls, I could've won the match. Usually I keep a cooler head but somehow everything went bad yesterday. Pusher is not a bad thing, but, the bad call, me missing a few sitters early on, him taking a long time between points and change overs and me being in a 3 hour meeting before the match didn't help my mood. I was just venting with the previous post. Now that it's out of the system, I can concentrate on my today's match.:)

    I am usually not very confrontational and about a year back, I asked an opponent( much older than me) who called a ball out if he was sure. I had this guy running back and forth and he wasn't even looking at the ball when he called it out. I though the ball was at least 6 inches inside the side line. And when I asked him, he gave me a lecture on how he wouldn't call it if he wasn't sure and by asking the question, I was questioning his integrity and was generally pissy about it and how the younger people these days behave(I'm over 30 :) ). So I conceded the point and even though the rest of the match played out without incidents and I won, after the match he shook my hands and said, that me challenging the call made him lose focus and made it less fun for him.

    So since then, I have never challenged a call... doesn't mean that it never gets on my nerves though. I just don't say anything tot he opponent. The guy yesterday was much older than me as well.
     
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  20. Commando Tennis Shorts

    Commando Tennis Shorts Hall of Fame

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    At the end of the day, it's common sense. Forget getting caught up in ultimately arbitrary numbers like 99% vs. 100 %, etc.

    It's very simple: Was the ball in or was the ball out?
     
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  21. Gemini

    Gemini Hall of Fame

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    I don't think being a 99 to 100 percent sure is the main issue. It's the conviction in making the call. I tend to make the (out) call no more than a fraction of a second after the ball's landed and will correct myself immediately thereafter if I have doubt. Even, if I've called it out, hit the ball back into play and then overruled myself, I generally don't replay the point. I just give it to my opponent but most of the time, my opponent offers to replay the point even though I've offered to give it up.
     
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  22. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    It is not that simple, and that is why we have line judges, referee, and Hawk-eye.

    Why is everyone trying to make a complex matter simple? It is human nature to call a ball out if it appeared so in the heat of the moment especially if you are also moving, and then have second thoughts about it to try to be fair to the opponent. Visual perceptions can deceive, but at the same time it is your nature not to constantly call out balls in and screw up your chances. Expecting that recreational players can make calls which even the pros and line judges get wrong is just unreasonable and reveals an obsession with "rules" rather than playing the game.
     
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  23. JRstriker12

    JRstriker12 Hall of Fame

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    For a rec match - it is pretty simple. If you see it land out, call it out. If you see it land in, call it in. If you are not sure, give a benefit if a doubt.

    Will people miss calls, make mistakes, maybe even cheat? Yes they will, but I trust that most people do thier best to give honest calls and that's what matters.

    No one here is saying that we expect 100% accuaracy, just honesty. That's what the code is asking. On average, the system work pretty well.

    As you know, if people don't follow the "rules," the is no game, just chaos.
     
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  24. Cross Court

    Cross Court Banned

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    If you're really close to your opponent, you can say something like "I'm not sure...want to redo the point?" but if you're not, they always say that if you're not sure if it was in or out, you call it in.

    Can you request line judges? I can always do that where I play.
     
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  25. Commando Tennis Shorts

    Commando Tennis Shorts Hall of Fame

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    If your club/rec center has line judges, sure you can. But the vast majority do not largely have them available
     
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  26. Steady Eddy

    Steady Eddy Hall of Fame

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    I won't make a late "out" call. If I think it's out but haven't spoken up for even a small interval of time, that's it, I let it go. It's embarrassing to make late out calls. I'd rather lose the point!
     
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  27. WBF

    WBF Hall of Fame

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    You call what you see. You might make a mistake due to perception issues, but there is NO room for doubt. You either saw it ONE HUNDRED percent out, or you call it in.
     
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  28. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Same here. The word gets caught in my throat for an instant, so then it is too late. I'd rather just win the point a second time than forfeit the credibility that comes with making line calls promptly.
     
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  29. jc4.0

    jc4.0 Professional

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    This is what I said to my opponent (who is also my good friend): If you say you're 100% sure that ball was out then I completely accept your call. No worries!

    We played on. But i know that she felt a little unsure of her call. Otherwise she wouldn't have asked her partner to take a look at the mark (her partner was at the net at the time, and couldn't have seen the actual ball drop). I just don't like it when someone can't make a definitive call, immediately. Even if I don't believe the call, if they are really sure about it - I accept it and can move on, no problem. Actually I move on in any case because I dislike arguing on the court.
     
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  30. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    It is the easiest rule to apply there is. Either you are 100% sure a ball is out or it is in.
     
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  31. heroix

    heroix New User

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    Every second you spend thinking of line calls is another second you're not thinking about the game/strategy.

    Like previously mentioned, I only call it out if I'm a 100% sure.
    If I'm to call a ball that was close out, then I'll start second guessing myself or get some type of guilt-factor.

    I hate when a call in tennis distracts you from match play. It's really the mental-side of the game and can really get to you.

    One thing that's always bugged me, is when I play a first serve and the server goes to second serve.
    It always bugs me, I don't care if he thought it was out- I played it. But almost as soon as they hit it, they think it's out. Sometimes it's clearly out- so that doesn't bother me. It urks me when it's close enough that I'm not going to call it out, but they will.

    Then when that second serve comes I'm rather pissed. Especially in certain circumstances.
    I was playing a match yesterday, where a guy hit his first serve- and I hit a beautiful return- probably would've won the point. As soon as I hit the return (right before it bounces) he starts setting up for a second serve.
    I tell the guy it was in, and he says "Ah I'm sorry man, I felt pretty sure that it was out."

    Sigh...
     
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  32. topher.juan

    topher.juan Rookie

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    In Topher's court saying "I think it was out" is simply unacceptable -- such words are strictly forbidden. The call needs to made immediately, if they hesitate on the call they are asked if they are sure; if the response is anything other than yes/absolutely/positive it's my point. 99.9% sure = 100% my point, no question about it; it's not up for debate once you say that; so sad you are so close to being sure. Onto the next point. You also can't "think" it's out one moment then "know" it's out the next, no backpedaling. No "lets" or any of that garbage on an uncertain call. You think so? You do not say that on the tennis court -- that's almost as severe a sin as saying Wimbleton. An absolute disgrace to the sport. You better know so next time and let me hear that 'D'. I don't care about hurting anyone's feelings on the court, these are the rules, if you don't want to play by them you are not entitled to play with me. If someone is new to your court, you may want to talk about this before play begins, just so they know. I played a ball today that I'm as possibly close to certain it was out, the slightest uncertainty was enough for me to not call it; I expect the same from anyone I play with, any thought of uncertainty in the call: it's in. You will meet those who know this is how you play; they will say they know when they think, this is when you stare like Cyclops from the Marvel comics, burning a hole in the court and their eyes and indefinitely revoke their privilege of playing with you.
     
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  33. LuckyR

    LuckyR Legend

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    To be fair, there a number of side issues swirling around this topic that are not being given their due. For example, there is such a thing as a late, correct, "out" call. If you decide to make late calls automatically "in", then you are a cheater. True you are cheating against yourself, but you are intentionally making an incorrect call, so there you have it.

    Secondly, what does "late" mean? There is a delay time, that is so late that it makes the opponent wonder if you are cheating them, let me give an example. When I call the service line for my partner receiving, usually I will call "out" before the serve (even when well struck) makes it to him. Sometimes, for various reasons I will make a call that is "later" but in my mind not "late", say when he strikes the ball. I would describe a call made well after the service return is struck, a "late" call, others may disagree. Essentially it is an area of controversy.
     
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  34. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Pardon?

    Giving your opponent a break by recognizing that you were late with an out call is cheating?

    Nah, not in my opinion. If you have a feeling in your gut that you missed your opportunity to call a ball out and decide to let it slide instead, you are being honorable. You are not cheating. Granted, you are paying a price for your inattention or slow reflexes or whatever it was that caused you not to make a prompt out call. That's not cheating, though.

    How late is too late? Again, it's just a gut feeling.
     
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  35. Steady Eddy

    Steady Eddy Hall of Fame

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    Yeah, I don't get that either. Cheating by giving your opponent the benefit of the doubt? I'm surprised too. Because LuckyR is usually pretty sensible.
     
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  36. kylebarendrick

    kylebarendrick Professional

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    Too late is generally considered either when the ball crosses back over the net or when it reaches your opponent.

    I would never say "I'm not sure, let's play it over". If I'm not sure then I have to call it good. I really hate it when opponents ask to play a point over because they think a ball was out but they aren't sure.
     
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  37. Gemini

    Gemini Hall of Fame

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    I can't agree with your assessment of cheating. Cheating is generally an act of dishonesty/swindling that benefits the person currently committing the action (in this case the person making the call). It's done to create an unfair advantage.

    Also, I generally don't make "in" calls. I only worry about seeing if the ball is out. If I didn't see it out, then it's in. If I call the ball out and then realize it was in, I'll overrule my out call and give my opponent the point. It's upon my opponent to assume that his close shots are in until I give him some indication that the are out.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2009
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  38. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    In such a situation I don't say anything. If I play a first serve for a winner and have not said a thing or in any way indicated a fault, I just immediately walk over to the other side and wait for them to serve again. Servers do NOT get to pick and choose which of their first serves is good.* If you are going to let them do this, why not let them make all of the calls on your side of the court?

    *The ONLY exception is when the receiver has NOT put the ball back into play. Then a server can call that first serve a fault since it in no way penalizes the receiver.
     
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  39. Gemini

    Gemini Hall of Fame

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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by heroix [​IMG]
    Every second you spend thinking of line calls is another second you're not thinking about the game/strategy.

    Like previously mentioned, I only call it out if I'm a 100% sure.
    If I'm to call a ball that was close out, then I'll start second guessing myself or get some type of guilt-factor.

    I hate when a call in tennis distracts you from match play. It's really the mental-side of the game and can really get to you.

    One thing that's always bugged me, is when I play a first serve and the server goes to second serve.
    It always bugs me, I don't care if he thought it was out- I played it. But almost as soon as they hit it, they think it's out. Sometimes it's clearly out- so that doesn't bother me. It urks me when it's close enough that I'm not going to call it out, but they will.

    Then when that second serve comes I'm rather pissed. Especially in certain circumstances.
    I was playing a match yesterday, where a guy hit his first serve- and I hit a beautiful return- probably would've won the point. As soon as I hit the return (right before it bounces) he starts setting up for a second serve.
    I tell the guy it was in, and he says "Ah I'm sorry man, I felt pretty sure that it was out."

    Sigh...


    Agreed. It's not the server's prerogative to call his opponent's side of the net. He should have assumed his serve was good until the returner told him otherwise.
     
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  40. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    You are correct, for example when playing on clay there are often marks that can help confirm or reject a call making this surface a much different situation than playing on hard courts imo.
     
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  41. Dave M

    Dave M Hall of Fame

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    I'd agree with most here in that if i can't be sure it's out, it's in.My least favourite thing to hear from the other side of the net (and i hear it quite a bit) is "oh that's only just in" or "i think ill let you have that point, probably on the line".
    It just seems alien to the people i play that you might be, for instance aiming for near the baseline!!
     
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  42. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Then I guess we would never have "late calls" from line judges or referee overrules. Everyone forms the first impression and sticks to it.

    That is not how it works.

    People who claim to rigidly follow some rules are usually breaking the intent of the rules.
     
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  43. heroix

    heroix New User

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    Yeah good point Gemini and Beernutz.
    I'll act differently next time =]
     
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  44. precision2b

    precision2b Semi-Pro

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    I agree with beernutz & Gemini... We all know that there are some that will use this to get out of trouble on a well hit return…
     
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  45. JRstriker12

    JRstriker12 Hall of Fame

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    I'm not talking about lines people, refs, etc. I'm talking about your average recreational or USTA match where people have to make their own line calls.

    As I CLEARLY said in my previous post, I don't expect 100% accuracy on line calls. I do expect mistakes and missed calls. BUT - if you follow the code, it works pretty well on average, and realistically, that's the best you can ask for - just basic honesty and a benefit of a doubt.

    I've found that the game is much better when people do follw these rules. Most of the people I play with repay kindness with kindness. If I tell my opponent that I wasn't sure and give him the point, he's more likely to return the favor on a close call -even when it does not go in his favor- and that's what the code is trying to set as a precident.

    As the code says - "A player in attempting to be scrupulously
    honest on line calls frequently will find himself keeping a ball in play that
    might have been out or that the player discovers too late was out. Even so,
    the game is much better played this way
    ."

    As for your last point - people who follow the rules break the intent of the rules- I'm not talking about being legalistic and gaming the rules for advantage. As I said, all I ask for is basic honesty - which is the intent of this part of the code. To keep players honest and try to remove the "oh it was close and I'm down so I THINK it was out" type line calls.
     
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  46. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    So it is not honest to call the ball out and then think over it one more time and call it in to give the benefit of the doubt to the opponent? Mind you, the reason I am saying it is not honest as per your rules is because the opponent could then say that all your out calls were wrong because you changed your mind on this one, as you are supposed to make one ultimate decision and stick to it.

    How would this work in an identification by a eyewitness? He would insist that he knows who it is and would not agree to see a line up. After all, if he needs to look at a line up, that means he is not sure, and must declare that he has not witnessed the person at all and let him go. No second thoughts allowed.
     
    #46
  47. jc4.0

    jc4.0 Professional

    Joined:
    May 20, 2009
    Messages:
    803
    Of course this isn't a life or death matter, as in identifying which thug carjacked you. There may be nuances in that situation. But sorry, no second thoughts are allowed on line calls in my opinion. Either the ball was in, or it was out. And if you didn't get a good look at it, then you have to give up the point. What I'm pleading for here is - no "I THINK the ball was out" calls. Even if you're wrong sometimes, just be definitive. Call the ball out strongly and confidently, and even if your opponent has an issue with it, stick with your call. Because you were 1000% sure of your call right? You weren't guessing, you have zero doubt - so you don't need your partner to back you up on the call, don't even go there. If you make that kind of call, even if I disagree, I'll honor your call and move on. But if you seem indecisive, I'll always think you hooked me. That's not good for a friendship.
     
    #47
  48. JRstriker12

    JRstriker12 Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2006
    Messages:
    3,366
    Please re-read my post, then re-read it again. I expect players to make errors on thier calls occasionally.

    There's no contradiction.

    I never said they have to stick with thier first call, just that they should be honest in calling what they see - and yes it's possible for someone to honestly call an out ball in and vice-versa. I can live with that - a rec game doesn't require hawk-eye.

    But if you have to "think it over" then obviously you aren't sure, so yes, you should correct your call and give a benefit of a doubt.

    The times when I had to reverse my call because I made a mistake (and yes, players will make mistakes) I didn't have to "think it over," I immediately corrected my call.

    A single correctin does not mean that all he rest of thier calls are bad. A opponent who would make that argument on the court is just being an azz.

    As far as I'm concerned the code applies to tennis, not identifing criminals in a line-up.
     
    #48
  49. 1st seed alldayy

    1st seed alldayy New User

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2009
    Messages:
    50
    i have no idea
     
    #49
  50. TsongaEatingAPineappleLol

    TsongaEatingAPineappleLol Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2008
    Messages:
    266
    Location:
    Long Island, New York
    This man speaks the truth.
     
    #50

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