Short video of some forehands

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by tlm, Dec 29, 2012.

  1. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    Last edited: Mar 3, 2013
    #1
  2. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    Thanks for posting. Looks to me like you have a very effective, if maybe somewhat unconventional, forehand. I see lots of potential in your hitting. Post more vids, preferably with the camera positioned behind you.
     
    #2
  3. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    I definitely have a unconventional forehand, it is pretty consistent though. But working on making improvements.

    I will have to take some with another partner, my wife told my son the camera man that she does not want to be on the video.
     
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  4. 10isfreak

    10isfreak Semi-Pro

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    It‘s a great basis to work with and a nice forehand.

    Two issues... first off, you do not need to reverse every forehand finish. When the ball is low or that you aren‘t forced to move too much.

    Secondly, your preparation. You can do two things early: turn your shoulders and change your grip... you can also move toward the ball obviously. One thing that you cannot do is bring the racket back, split both hands and wait. Pros always keep both hands on the racket until they are ready to commit to swinging... once they split hands, it‘s all the way to the ball.

    Obviously, you seem to have a nice overall swing. Fixing these small details could be quick and it would bring your game up a notch. Changing the preparation would improve your consistency and power, while using different finishes would grant you with more options.
     
    #4
  5. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    Thanks for the tips, I used to use more of a WW finish most of the time but now I have been using a lot more reverse forehand finishes for some reason, it is not intentional. If you notice on a few of them that I attack some they have more of a WW finish, but for some reason on most shots I use a reverse.
     
    #5
  6. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    well that was weird. haha. no, not your strokes. i mean ....
    is that you?? you look 20 years younger or something.
    and your footwork is better than i remember. wth? i thought i remember
    you as being not so mobile and absolutely no split steps at all. also you used to look more top heavy. no? now you look more balanced.
    also your strokes look more solid than before. solid as in consistent w/ better control. your strokes are still... unique... but looks better than before. you're moving quite well there. were you injured before or something? looks totally different.

    gotta learn to change your grip quickly for that fh slice.
    i'd hold the racquet w/ 2 hands longer if i were you for better control, balance and shoulder turn.
    left arm is still out of the picture but i ges it works for you w/ the way you swing.
     
    #6
  7. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    Thanks Cheetah, ya that is me took that vid today. The last vid I posted was in the summer and I was actually a few pounds lighter then. Also the last vids I posted was hitting with the ball machine, and as weird as it sounds I don't hit or move as good with the ball machine.

    I play and move better in a rally. Plus my movement has always been pretty good but not with the machine. Although I know I am not very good I thought I was a little better than you gave me credit for in the last video I posted.

    I do like your tips, you are right have to change the grip quicker and hold the racket with 2 hands longer.
     
    #7
  8. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    rock on.

    What do you do for high fh's?
     
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  9. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    Actually I like the ball up high, my wife hits a low ball which is not high enough for what I prefer. On high forehands I WW across them which seems to work pretty well.
     
    #9
  10. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    I will have to get some video of playing some points instead of just rallying like the above to see how much difference there is.
     
    #10
  11. Power Player

    Power Player Talk Tennis Guru

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    You are falling backwards. I think that is a footwork thing and your left hand is not involved at all in the shot. Real interesting forehand. It looks like you are working too hard or maybe your wife is just awesome at tennis. Not sure since I can't see that angle. If you do take lessons make the pro teach you footwork drills. It should save you some energy out there.
     
    #11
  12. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    You make some good points PP, I think I pull back to much and I definitely need some footwork drills. I do use to much energy and my wife is pretty good but I think it is more of my bad footwork that in turn makes me work harder than I should.
     
    #12
  13. slowfox

    slowfox Professional

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    I would tell you what I often have to remind myself - relax more. And interesting buggy whip forehand finish, I'm curious what it feels like to be on the receiving end of that. Do your opponents find it creates a heavier ball that way?
     
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  14. Power Player

    Power Player Talk Tennis Guru

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    I am willing to bet its a spinnier ball, but he is not hitting through the ball so there will be more kick than heaviness.

    Just fixing the footwork and balance will change a lot. The balance is way off and if he can fix that I think there will be less UEs, less effort, and a lot of things may sort themselves out.
     
    #14
  15. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    As PP pointed out it is more spinny than heavy but it does kick up pretty high and fast. Your suggestion of trying to relax more is very true, I try to muscle the ball to much.
     
    #15
  16. dominikk1985

    dominikk1985 Legend

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    whether you use WW or reverse is not a big difference. kvitova also used the reverse all the time and of course nadal does.

    but even with the reverse you need to use the body more. you are arming the ball.

    just watch nadal, he uses his body like a whip. his body rotates hard and then like the handle of a whip stops and he finishes just with the arm whipping through. this is why he generates so much RHS. he doesn't pull the racket through by using body rotation (which is better than arming but still not high level) but uses the rotation to create stretch and then release it by stopping the rotation and using the whip effect.

    you arm the ball more. the striking is good and you produce some nice spin. your footwork needs to improve though, you are not getting really into the corners. you not only lack the footwork but also actual speed as you are often very late. so do some short lateral sprints too as well as footwork drills.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2012
    #16
  17. TheCheese

    TheCheese Professional

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    All you've gotta add is a huge grunt and we've got a rec level Nadal in the making!

    Looks pretty effective, I'm sure you get good spin.
     
    #17
  18. Graphiteking

    Graphiteking Rookie

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    Look at your follow through at 31 sec in the vid. That is the correct way to hit the ball. Across the body.
     
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  19. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    Good points definitely using to much arm not enough body rotation. I do need to improve the footwork also. What do you mean by I am not really getting into the corners?
     
    #19
  20. MethodTennis

    MethodTennis Hall of Fame

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    There is quite a few things to work on, and will probably take a long time to fix much of what you do wrong. The shot is all arm, and even at the the arm doesnt bring the racekt through the ball just up the back of it. Ideally the racket should finish on the oposite side of the body on every shot.

    You should probably try to look at exagerating the shoulder turn or unit turn as in your previous video it is usually when you are square to the court the racket goes straight back. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=el9IyqMZ5yQ look at the FHs at 0:16 and 0:57, thats what you should be aiming to do on every ball. You'll probably notice that even when you get the unit turn on some of the shots in your video that the racket finishes pretty much above your head, (0:44) however it is far better than the shots where the shoulder turn really lacks (1:00 and 1:03)


    When the top players reverse the forehand the racket actually comes across the body first and it is the racket head speed which brings it back to the dominant shoulder. They do not force it over and it is mearly a side affect ofhow fast they are swinging through (crucially not up, like yourself) the ball.

    Have fun
     
    #20
  21. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    For some reason I am using a reverse finish more now than what I was in the past. On the shot you are referring to that is what I use more when I have time to step into the court, I use that most of the time when I get into the court on a short ball and when attacking.

    But on neutral rally balls I am using the reverse a lot more, it ends up being very consistent but not as much of a forcing shot as the across the body follow through.
     
    #21
  22. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    Thanks for the good advise.
     
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  23. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    I do get pretty good spin and the ball kicks up pretty high which a lot of players don't like. I play a grinder style and keep hitting that looping top spin side to side until I get the short ball or error.
     
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  24. chico9166

    chico9166 Guest

    Looks like a forehand influenced by Oscar Wegner.
     
    #24
  25. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    I did use his videos to learn how to hit top spin.
     
    #25
  26. NLBwell

    NLBwell Legend

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    It's a pretty sweet looking shot when you drive through it and finish over your left shoulder. Actually, I think your footwork, preparation, and start of the stroke look better than before. Maybe it's just the video angle or because of the ball machine, but much less like throwing buckets of mud.
    You put so much effort into lifting your body away from the ball and pulling your arm upwards just before impact - and are getting negative usefulness from it.
    Try getting a kids baseball (T-ball) bat or taping something heavy to your racket and shadow swinging relaxed forehand strokes. The heavy weight should remind you not to pull upwards. Just let the racket flow through the follow-through. It may not take long for improvement.
     
    #26
  27. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    Well thats good that I am not throwing buckets of mud as much as before. You are correct I do use a lot of effort into pulling upwards right before contact. But I am not sure that it is not useful, I hit a lot of top spin and most opponents do not like the way my shots kick up high on them making them hit in a uncomfortable position quite often.


    As I mentioned earlier I use a reverse finish a lot on rally balls, which I have found that it gives me a lot of consistency, but when I get time and am able to step into the court that is when I use more WW finish. Or like the one that you mentioned over my left shoulder.

    Maybe I should use that more force full type swing most of the time. But I have found success in grinding looping top spin on a high % of my shots and then when the time is right step in and go for the aggressive shot.
     
    #27
  28. monomer

    monomer Rookie

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    It is nice to see an old guy (like me) working on an open stance, modern forehand. When you move to this approach from a linear, step into the shot FH, it always takes some time to hit thru the ball effectively.

    While I don't think it's perfect, this video was helpful to me-

    Dan Brown Modern Forehand Lesson

    You are falling backward as you swing. In this video you can really see that the guy loads the right foot on the unit turn, and then pushes forward as he rotates and whips the racquet around.

    This would be an easy fix that would have you hitting a heavier ball almost immediately.
     
    #28
  29. isilra

    isilra Rookie

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    OP, you really should listen to this guy. When i have seen your video, the arming was the first thing i have thought about. You have good strokes but it is like serving with eastern grip, you just can't make it to uber levels because you will always lack the necessary head speed and waste your energy. I think you like to improve, otherwise you wouldn't want for advises.

    Most of the forum members don't like it but i think you should really really check pull/push strokes theory and try to change to a pull forehand. You don't have a big, continuous loop, you drop the racquet to the slot, so it will be very easy for you to convert to it. You will just learn to use the hip/torso rotation to push your racquet, not your arm. Also Nadal would not be a perfect idol for everyone but he has a very similar forehand to yours, just the pull version of it, so with just a little practice, you have the opportunity to have a Nadal forehand as dominikk1985 said.

    Just shows the basic mentality but i think this will help you to correctly understand the difference. Look how effortlessly he hits the ball with that technique;

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMNtq393tvo
     
    #29
  30. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    Thanks for the advise and video clip.
     
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  31. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    You make good points, I knew that I armed the ball but I did not realize how much until I see it on video. Nice video clip I have seen some of his tips before and I liked them.

    Thanks for the advise and now I will try to make some changes like you and dominikk suggested. I am sure you guys are right and your suggestions will help, but it will take some time and effort.

    I hit at least 5 days a week on average and I am lucky to have a wife that can rally with me so I can go out and work on improvements like you suggested.

    I just wish it was as easy as it looks, watching your locknroll video makes it look like I should be able to go right out and copy the way he shows. But it is not that easy, but I am determined to make the change.
     
    #31
  32. NLBwell

    NLBwell Legend

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    You aren't pulling up until right at contact. By that time, the contact point and the velocities of the racket and ball are pretty much determined. You are putting effort into your follow-through, not the contact with the ball. For your looping topspin, just follow the same swingpath without pulling up during the follow-through
     
    #32
  33. NLBwell

    NLBwell Legend

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    Doing it is easy. Changing habits is hard.
     
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  34. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    Well you may be right about that because it looks like it should be easy.
     
    #34
  35. thejackal

    thejackal Hall of Fame

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    yo cheetah, want to play a match next week?

    sry for the thread jack btw
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2012
    #35
  36. fruitytennis1

    fruitytennis1 Professional

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    Shore up the footwork a bit
    Bend zee knees
    Hit that fh at 31 secs over and over again
    In fact, just ball machine hitting that fh.
    Quit the reverse fh-its holding you back and i think you'll injure yourself eventually
     
    #36
  37. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    You may be right, I will have to work on going more across with the follow through.
     
    #37
  38. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    Yes. any day is fine. you have my email. lemme know.
     
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  39. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    Well I took your advise yesterday while practicing and tried to keep hitting that same forehand with the going across follow through. It seemed to work pretty well so I will continue tonight and try and get it ingrained.
     
    #39
  40. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    tlm,
    It really just depends on how you want to shape the shot. I was very impressed
    with many of the comments on the 1st page, but think many of the more
    critical ones on the 2ond have a different shot shape in mind. I don't expect
    most of them want to be on the receiving end of most of those high kicking
    shots. You probably draw short balls by the bucket loads when playing points.

    Am I right that you are looking for very good net clearance, with heavy spin to
    bring the ball back down aggressively. I think you are doing a bunch of stuff
    right to that end. I'm not a big fan of hitting so many bolo Fhs, but sometimes
    that is what it takes to shape the shot. Sometimes it comes from being a bit
    late too though. The more you move the contact forward, the lower you will
    tend to be on your finish to a point.

    Imo you should focus mainly on 2 items to smooth out the shot a bit.
    I'd like to see you use that off hand better on the take back, with stretching it
    across to the side fence on separation, and
    I'd suggest to focus on getting a more stable balance for the stroke.
    From there, you can see how things are and adjust as required, but these
    2 things will smooth things out a bit and enhance your control on the shot.
    I think the stretch across will help with balance as well.

    I agree with cheetah on how you look more mobile and less stiff, so
    your work is really paying off!
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2013
    #40
  41. xAceofSpadesx

    xAceofSpadesx New User

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    I guess if you want to go all reverse that's okay...but it looks to be a more defensive reverse (like what you would do on a low ball). I'm not seeing (like Dominik pointed out) enough rotation.

    If you watch Nadal, he actually follows through above his right shoulder and then whips it around his head for the reverse finish. This lets him hit somewhat hard while keeping that ridiculous spin. I would advise studying videos of his form and then simply copying his motion if you can.
     
    #41
  42. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    Ya you are right I use high net clearance with a lot of spin and play a consistent looping grinding style. I just loop heavy top spin back and forth and either draw the error or get the short ball that I can attack. When I step into the court I do flatten my shots out quite a bit, and as some mentioned on a few of my shots in the clip I came across the ball with more of a WW finish.

    I really want to get back to using more of those type forehands, for some reason I use the bolo type follow through now more than I ever did in the past. I did not try to develop this technique, in the past my follow through would be more WW style. But all of a sudden this past year after filming myself I notice I use the reverse a lot.

    I think your suggestions are good and I will give them a try and see if they help. Thanks for your comments you always seem to point out some flaws and have fairly simple changes that can really help without making me do to much to were it gets confusing.

    After I posted my earlier video from the summer you pointed out that my take back had no loop which you said was okay but sometimes I was reaching back to far. I have found that I hit more consistent by using your advise and not letting the racket head get to far behind me.
     
    #42
  43. Power Player

    Power Player Talk Tennis Guru

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    I agree and then I disagree. I would love to get balls like that because I know how to attack them. I think at a lower level of tennis, high kick is a very nice weapon, but it's not uncommon to see them. I have been practicing taking high bouncers out of the air, and it is eye opening how much time can be taken away from the opponent when you take them high.

    It's a lot of energy with little reward to hit like that IMO. There is nothing wrong with TLM learning to hit through and drive the ball more.
     
    #43
  44. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Nothing wrong at all with it if that is what he wants to do and how he wants to
    play. He shouldn't do it because others like it though.
    Maybe you can attack them and do well, but I'd like to see it done. If he does
    a good job of working these to the smart targets you would have a lot on your
    hands to take them out of the air...and it better be good, cause your position
    will be tough for the next one. Rafa has done well with it despite the haters, and
    at the rec level, it won't take near as much work as it does on tour.
    tlm has already proven he does well with this style and players at his level
    struggle greatly to deal with it.
    He also has the ability to hit flatter on mid ct attacks anyway, but
    by all means, have variety in your game!
     
    #44
  45. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    I agree with some of your points, like you said with lower level players high kicking top spin gives them fits. But as you play the better players they can handle that shot much better.

    I also agree that I should drive through the ball more, and if you notice there are some shots on the clip were I do hit through it more. My game is about consistency and with the high looping top spin I can rally consistently point after point. But when I get the shorter weak shot I do drive through and flatten out my shots more. I just wait for the higher % shot and then attack.

    I play mostly 4.0-4.5 players and some are pretty solid players, the better ones will beat me but I do give them a good battle. You are correct to that my forehand does use a lot of energy, but believe me there is reward to that high kicking shots. Even the better players don't like it and it can give them problems.

    I have ran into a few that can drive that high ball like you say, but most do not like the ball at shoulder height or above. The guys that handle the top spin the best play it off the rise.
     
    #45
  46. Power Player

    Power Player Talk Tennis Guru

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    5263 Come down here and hit and send me topspin kickers and Ill do it for you. Still waiting on some vid of you or the vid of the match you were supposed to play that never happened.

    Rafa hits the heaviest ball in the world. It is insane to mimic that shot unless you are young and have great technique.

    I guarantee you that ball is not kicking at all like Rafas. I can tell by his off balance and falling backwards that the ball will not have enough on it to bug a better player. If you want to argue that, go ahead and knock yourself out. But OP is doing the right thing by learning to hit through the ball, get his balance right and fix his footwork.

    The reverse forehand is a waste of time without great footwork and great balance.
     
    #46
  47. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Hey, did I say something you didn't like or offended you? No need to get sassy.

    First, I'm not sure mine would be as effective as tlm's, as that is not my normal
    stroke, so what I do has nothing to do with it.

    What is insane is to think his ball needs to anywhere close to Rafa's to give
    his opponents trouble. If it was anywhere near Rafa's, you wouldn't stand a
    chance, would you? I'm not saying you can't do it. You are likely at least a half level
    better, so you should be able to deal with it, right? I just said I'd like to see
    you do it.
     
    #47
  48. Power Player

    Power Player Talk Tennis Guru

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    I know what you said. Id like to see you do, i dont know, anything? Im sure a lot of people echo that sentiment here.

    Stop being passive agressive in every thread. You came in here to start something, made no sense, and contributed nothing that will help the op.
     
    #48
  49. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I'm glad you are interested in my game, but I, like tlm am and older guy and
    and a former college football player and black belt instructor for years. I
    say that to explain that I carry quite a few old injuries and pains from my
    younger years. If I had some beautiful, exceptional strokes to share with
    you and others here, I likely would do it. Likely you don't want to see my
    strokes be good, but are more interested in pointing out faults; so why help
    you pick on me :)

    You are totally wrong about the passive aggressive thing, as I always thought
    we had a respectful relationship here. I've nearly always been supportive of
    your good posts and that has been quite often. Not sure what got your back
    up. Forums can be tough on communication for all of us.

    I'll let tlm decide how helpful I've been to his game.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2013
    #49
  50. canny

    canny Rookie

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    I played a kid from another high school who swung just like that. He had better footwork and drove through the ball alittle more though. The balls weren't really heavy they just kicked a gooood bit. But after awhile I easily adjusted my contact zone and was crushing them.

    Not saying you should change your technique if it's really working. But idk his shots became really predictable and right in my zone as the match went on. Unless you got the direction, variation and penetration to use it effectively I'd correct to a more proper form. Maybe something more Sharapova esque as the isnt much of a stretch from what you're doing.
     
    #50

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