Short video of some forehands

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by tlm, Dec 29, 2012.

  1. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    TLM,

    innocent question here: Why do you swing like that?

    Is it because you 'were' swinging like that a few years ago when you picked up the game and were trying to imitate someone and eventually you got it to work?

    or is it because you've found success with it so why change it?
    or is it because you've tried a more conventional swing but didn't have the discipline it would take to change your current form?
    or is it because you've tried to change it but a different type just didn't work for you?
    or is it because that's the only swing pattern that feels ok without some sort of pain or flexibility issue?
    or is it because you just like swinging that way?

    Again, innocent question. Just curious.

    The reverse in itself is fine, I guess, but you seem to play a lot so I'm wondering how come you haven't gotten down to business and at least try to ingrane a slightly different footwork pattern so that you can really get some drive in that reverse if that's the way you want to go. You seem to be able to move well enough to do that.
    I mean... just 1.5 steps configured a little differently would enable you to really pound it with that swing. I see a lot of wasted energy in that swing that if put into the ball would be a pretty heavy shot. The difference between your shot now and your shot with even just slightly more weight transfer and contact point adjustment would be huge.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2013
    #51
  2. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    That is what a lot of people here don't understand I do drive through the ball more on shorter balls when I step into the court with time there are a few of those in the video clip.

    But on the average rally ball I am pulling up and back because it puts more top spin on the ball. Most all the guys I play do not have a easy time adjusting their contact zone and are rarely crushing these shots.
     
    #52
  3. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    Well after failing with conventional technique I purchased Oscar Wegners video series. I learned how to hit top spin quickly from his instruction, I was like wow I can finally swing out and keep the ball in the court.

    Over last few years of playing in leagues I realized that trying to hit to aggressively did not work that often against better players. Playing consistent tennis is what won me a lot of matches. I found that when you added up the amount of my power forehands that the opponent was able to still get back plus the errors made playing overly aggressively it was not a winning formula.

    By using my swing I am very consistent, the net is taken out of the picture and because I don't drive the ball to much and with so much spin I rarely hit long. Now i play a higher % type tennis, hitting varying amounts of spin and using angles until I get the shorter higher % put away shot.

    Plus I play a lot of old school type players that love the flat fast shots and feed off them. But they do not know how to handle the looping high kicking shots of mine. Believe me even most of the better players that I face do not like that jumping shot. They keep to my back hand as much as possible.

    But you are correct with some adjustment I can get more bang out of my shots, and I am working on that. I have done it at times use a similar swing but with more weight into it and more across follow through. Which as you said can make a big difference in my shots. But I think it will take some time to get this more ingrained.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2013
    #53
  4. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    The one line you got me thinking of is it is insane to mimic that shot unless you are young and have great technique. Which i have neither, but I am not trying to mimic anyone, for some reason my forehand has just become more reverse.

    I am going to try and spend the rest of the winter trying to get better foot work and hit through the ball more.
     
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  5. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    ...........................
     
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  6. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    I am not a fan of how your hitting actually. you seem off balance on every hit. and most players I know myself included would get used to that ball real fast. I love shoulder high or higher fhs. easiest to drive. I like the reverse fh too. I just dont hit it everytime. usually only when stretched wide.

    Not saying your shot is not effective but we really need to see it from the back so we can see how the ball is moving and placement coupled with your balance in the recovery. then I think I can give a better assessment of how effective that style is. It could very well be doing crazy things that I cant see.
     
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  7. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    ...........................
     
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  8. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    ........................
     
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  9. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Oh it is coming back to me. Deja vu all over again. You are the guy with the schizophrenic forehand, one which looks very good and the other which is err... unconventional. I withdraw all my comments.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2013
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  10. Cheetah

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    so tlm, what happens when someone asks you to warm up with mini-tennis?
     
    #60
  11. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    I can hit some mini-tennis but don't do it often, not a big fan of it.
     
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  12. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    Maybe I am off balance sometimes but I really don't feel like I am that often.
    You love shoulder high or higher forehands, okay but most players I hit with don't but some can drive it.

    I do know that I have not found anyone that likes it to their backhand side and that is my strongest shot the inside out forehand to the righty's back hand, and I will pound that side to death if given the chance.

    But I can tell that basically everyone on this site is a better player than me. And everyone could handle my top spin forehands and drive them for winners relentlessly.

    Its just kinda strange that I play a lot of players and play in leagues a good part of the year in the 4.0 4-5 level and win more than I lose and even give the good players a good battle. So I guess most players here are strong 4.5 level and up.
     
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  13. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    Go ahead and give your comments, I know my shots are unconventional. Lucky for me that the score does not go by style points.
     
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  14. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    Im sure it works kicking to the bh. I would for sure have trouble there. I did play ncaa d1 in cali so I was a pretty good player when young. Even playing a real match once every 2 months now I can beat most people I ever meet. I pretty much just coach my son now. So I'm not really in match shape. You just moved off balance to me thats all. Doesnt matter though as long as you win.
     
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  15. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    no - most people here will lose to you... your style is the most effective in the 3.5-4.5 spectrum, it combines the safety margin of a pusher, and error-drawing ability of an attacker.

    it's funny people are still trying to yank to the left, while for 95% of them they should be thinking yanking to the sky like you do.

    seriously.
     
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  16. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    I am sure you are a good player anyone that played div.1 is a very good player. I have seen guys like you before that no longer take the game that serious and not in the best shape, but will still beat most players because of superior skills. Thats great that your kid has a good player as a father to hit with, good luck helping him.
     
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  17. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    Thanks for the kind words. But the points you make are exactly what I have found to work for me. By not trying to drive through the ball to much on the average rally shot I rarely miss long and with the high trajectory I take the net out of the picture.

    As long as I am getting enough spin on my shots even when they land just past the serve line they still kick up enough and make them tough to attack. So most of my shots land between the serve line and the baseline and by using smart targets and moving the ball around I can keep most people from attacking.

    And like you say it provides a ton of safety margin but can still be somewhat aggressive and draw a lot of errors and short balls. I do step in and drive the ball flatter when I force the weak short ball, but only when it is high %. But most of my points come from my unorthodox shots drawing errors.

    I would love to hit a couple shots and be able to rip a winner time after time without having to work the point as long as I do now, but other than those magic days when everything works I am not going to win very often doing that so I use what limited skills I have the most effective way, which are pretty much just like you described.
     
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  18. chico9166

    chico9166 Guest

    Yeah, it looks like it. But seriously, it's time to make some changes. It's obvious that you are looking to get better and are invested in your game. And while it seems you have a decent understanding of topspin and the necessary swing path, I'm not sure I've ever seen a more musculed, "arming it" stroke. It's just way too labor intensive.

    I think you've been advised about this, but you really need to make a better turn, with the torso coiled, left arm stretch (by the time the ball bounces more or less). YOU NEED TO COIL/LOAD.......Practice (on the last step out with the right foot) turning your shoulder line further than your hip line. (since you prefer playing from a more open stance) Find this position, and you will immediately start to feel the rotational capabilities in the forward swing. You'll feel efficiency......

    Secondly, it's important (at least in your stage of development) to start to develope a "momentum" based backswing. Some version of a loop....Right now you're taking the racquet back to some arbitrary point, stopping it, and then starting in up again.. This sort of backswing is very labor intensive, which is a characteristic of the overall look of your forehand. I feel this is one of the reasons your balance is so bad. In your quest to achieve racquet head speed from such a static position, you lunge, muscle, the racquet to an extreme extent...
     
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  19. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    What you are saying makes sense and ya you are correct my swing is labor intensive. I will try to incorporate what you are saying at practice tonight.
     
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  20. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    yup - this way of play also rarely break down when the pressure is high.... flat ballers may completely fall apart if they start missing in key situations, and some may never recover in a match, or some may start deceleration to keep the ball in and die by a 1000 cuts.

    but with your style, you can still swing aggressively, sky is literally the limit.

    the game that can effectively counter your style - needs to have a good game in the NML... either they take the ball early before it bounces up (which is tough), or they need to have a good 'continental game'... i.e. use continental grip to slice the ball down from both wings, and followed by a put away volley......

    but this day and age, all the recs are still trying to yank to the left, how many of them know the conti game? lol.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2013
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  21. Pet

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    #71
  22. Power Player

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    This is not completely true. You can take the ball out of the air with a sw grip as well. That is what i have been saying. I was shown how to do it by a coach at my club who is a top 500 atp player. It is not that difficult once you practice it and it punishes topspin balls. It is basially setting your point of contact higher.
     
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  23. loosegroove

    loosegroove Professional

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    Thanks for posting. Those are some wanky looking strokes for sure. Though I can see how the loopy topspin can certainly be effective at the 4.0 level. I feel like you could achieve the same effect with a more fluid motion and less effort...your shots are all arm. And if those shots land short they would be perfect sitters, since the ball would be bouncing up and not though the court, no? I have to agree your footwork looks pretty stiff, and you look off-balance on many of your shots hitting a fade-away off the back foot.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2013
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  24. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    yeah... OP... you are indeed mostly arm.

    you can do this more effortlessly with a higher take back, let the arm fall and swing up..... this way you get high kick ball with very little muscle effort, and perhaps less tendency to fall backwards.
     
    #74
  25. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

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    No, its the feet. Footwork and balance.
     
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  26. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    If I am hitting well I can land the ball a foot past the serve line and it will easily carry well past the baseline, yes it does bounce up but it also goes forward.

    What so many keep calling off balance and hitting a fade away is being done on purpose. The pulling up and back adds a lot of top spin to the ball, it is not hitting off balance. That is why I hit off the back foot at times, this is done purposely to get more spin and maintain control of the shot.
     
    #76
  27. loosegroove

    loosegroove Professional

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    A foot past the service line actually seems a bit short, since that means by the time it reaches the baseline it's more in people's strike zone. Push that deeper and I can see it paying even greater dividends.

    And say what you want, but your footwork and balance are off and are the biggest issues I (and others) would note. Why do you have to be falling back and hopping off of one foot to hit with topspin? It makes no sense, and at the very least is very ineffecient. I understand loading up the outside foot and hitting from an open stance, but purposely being late and hitting an open stance fade-away off of one foot is plain silly. It doesn't "add a lot of topspin"...maybe you've learned to hit with the most topspin hitting from this position, but it doesn't in and of itself add more topspin. You're making it way too hard for yourself out there...
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2013
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  28. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    I am not saying I try to hit only 1 foot past the serve line, usually around halfway between the serve line and baseline. My point was that if I get enough on my shot even if it lands only a foot from the serve line it will still carry well past the baseline.

    If you watch the clip there are a few shots were I step in and transfer my weight forward and the follow through goes across my left shoulder. There are a couple were I have more time and I step into the court note the last shot in the video.

    But in neutral rally shots from behind the baseline I do hit off the back foot a lot. And it does help create a lot of RHS by pulling back with a angular motion.

    And it does help put a lot of top spin on the ball, which gives me a very very consistent rally shot that I rarely miss. Then when I get the short ball I step in and follow through on my forehand with a more conventional swing.
     
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  29. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

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    Show us the back angle next time.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2013
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  30. canny

    canny Rookie

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    Im interested is how this is done. It'd be really helpful
     
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  31. loosegroove

    loosegroove Professional

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    Strange that people think a continental grip would be the most beneficial to combat this type of player. Your "standard" modern tennis stroke (ie windshield wiper sw forehand) excels at hitting these types of balls. Unlike a classic continental with a more linear forward path, with the windshield stroke you can create contact on a higher ball since the swing path already has a natural upward trajectory in a relatively short span, so as PP said, you're just hitting at a higher contact point for the most part. I'm not sure if that makes sense or not. As someone with a modern sw ww forehand, I can unload against most topspin shots...it's the hard flat hitters that give me more trouble.
     
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  32. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    Last edited: Jan 5, 2013
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  33. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    Are these all off the back foot and all arm?


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJ55yV8kTzs
     
    #83
  34. loosegroove

    loosegroove Professional

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    No, of course not. Actually the interesting thing is how you are one extreme or the other. Either you are completely on your back foot fading away, or you're stepping forward and then hitting a shot off of your front foot. From the short clip you posted, I didnt' see any shot where you're loading up your outside (back) foot, and then hitting through the ball while transferring your weight to your front foot. Given your style of play and the stroke you prefer, I feel like that would be something to work on.
     
    #84
  35. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

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    They look off balance to me. You want to be leaning into the court and hitting a recovery step after contact. The first thing that sticks out is your feet never move between balls. So if you ever play someone with a lot of experience, you are not going to be in position to hit the balls you want.

    You need to get in the habit of always moving your feet between balls, even on a ball machine. What that will do is help you setup properly and get the balance fixed.
     
    #85
  36. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    I agree that I need to get into the habit of moving my feet between shots, which I do much more when playing but not with the ball machine.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2013
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  37. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    I play a conservative grinding style from the back court, but when I get in the court with time I will attack with more weight into the shot and flatter trajectory.
     
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  38. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

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    Yeah its tough. You want to make it so you are doing it every time you play no matter what. You need to be split stepping and basically you should fix your footwork. I spent a lot of time on that and everything else clicked into place. People are going to focus on what your arm is doing..etc, but if you start with the feet, you will see a lot of improvements.

    Right now it looks like the game is too fast for you and you are trying to catch up. The reason is because your footwork is not there and you are not anticipating the next ball. Even if you are, you are not able to get prepared for it in time.

    I love this guy's website for footwork. It is a lot of stuff, but if you just start with the basics and only focus on that, you will see a difference.

    http://www.thebaileymethod.com/
     
    #88
  39. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    You are right, not all that much for a rec player, but it is low hanging fruit for
    you to improve. Ur Balance is not terrible, but you are not stable enough for your
    best control or focusing your easy power.
     
    #89
  40. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    Great points PP and thanks for the clip.
     
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  41. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    Ya your right, its a good thing I take some video once in a while otherwise I would not see these faults that I need to work on.
     
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  42. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    It's one of the things I see on my own video as well...
    Something we all have to stay after...all the time really.
     
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  43. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    Well I have to admit those balls are not as powder puffy as I thought they would be. Not bad. You seem to have good clearance and penetration when hitting with the machine. Off balance though and I think you'd get broken down against someone that could make you run side to side and up and back. It looks like you have more control than what you had in your vids from last year too.

    But man... what a waste. :)
    You would be able to hit soooo much better with just a few mods mainly to the footwork and a little swing adjustment. If you had better footwork and weight transfer you'd be able to make those shots sound like a rifle. Using less arm would give you higher rhs too.
     
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  44. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    Well Cheetah I am going to take you and Power Players advise and really work on the footwork.
     
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