Should Serena's Greatness be Reconsidered?

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by lordmanji, Sep 14, 2007.

  1. lordmanji

    lordmanji Guest

    a large part of people's placement of Serena as one of the greats (and to the delusional, into the top tier of greats) is that if she were healthy and motivated blah blah she is the best woman period in women's tennis. but after her three losses at grand slams to justine henin this year alone, i dont think we can say she is dominant anymore and thus should not be so highly regarded.

    what do you guys think? and what if she continues to be justine's whipping boy but still manages to win maybe two more slams? will she occupy such a high position in the list of goats?
     
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  2. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    Would of, could of, should of, and yada, yada, yada.

    The only thing she is the GOAT of is sore loser.
     
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  3. Ronaldo

    Ronaldo G.O.A.T.

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    Nah, lets see a JustineSlam first. RogerSlam too
     
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  4. tennispro11

    tennispro11 Hall of Fame

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    I completely agree. She shouldn't even be top ten of all time on the women's side. Like Drak said, GOAT for sore losers. She wouldn't even recognize a better player if a tennis ball hit her in the face. :)
     
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  5. mentalcase

    mentalcase Semi-Pro

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    uh, no. I don't understand why you would want to reconsider her status in the game? She won all four slams, number one, doubles, etc... She came, she played and conquered. You cannot diminish her accomplishments beacuse of 3 defeats.
     
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  6. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    ^^^ You forgot to mention all her excuses.
     
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  7. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    If a man did what she did(hold all the major titles at the same time, win 8 majors overall), there would be no question that she would be at least top 10 all time. And some would put her a lot higher.

    Interesting double standard, if you don't think she's top 10 alltime, you must not know much about tennis history.

    Please tell me, who are these 10 players that should be ranked ahead of her?

    I guess many are incapable of being objective on her career.
     
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  8. plain jane

    plain jane Semi-Pro

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    thank you!
     
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  9. Alafter

    Alafter Hall of Fame

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    Her potential is undeniable. I have no doubt she had the making of what potentially would have been something amazing. But in my opinion, greatness is achieved by something done and accomplished, not something highly 'potentially' possible.
     
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  10. tricky

    tricky Hall of Fame

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    WTA discussion provokes the ugliest arguments/comments on this board.

    In terms of greatness, I think one strike against the Williams sisters is that more weight seems to be put on total wins and longevity on the WTA than the ATP, which has less truly dominant periods.

    Serena used to be one of the fastest athletes on tour. If she still had that speed and conditioning, she'd probably still dominate tennis. The fact that she plays with a handicap of her own making doesn't enhance her greatness, anymore than Safin's lack of commitment does for his.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2007
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  11. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    Not even you believe this.
     
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  12. mentalcase

    mentalcase Semi-Pro

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    True, she cannot accept losing....she hates it!

    The last time she lost to the same player 3 times at slams, she came back the next year and dominated. Of course she is not as young and mobile as she used to be, however it will be interesting to see if these losses to Justine motivate her for 2008.

    Serena at her best won all 4 slams!

    Justine at her best won 3 of 4....No Wimbledon!:-D
     
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  13. Char

    Char Rookie

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    She's a great player but a terrible personality and not terribly focused on tennis. In any event, I think its just wise to assess greatness post career. A lot easier that way.
     
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  14. Phil

    Phil Hall of Fame

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    She's won 8 majors, which puts her in the top tier of all-time greats. So what, exactly, needs to be "reconsidered"? The fact that you don't like her doesn't change the fact that she is among the all-time greats. Get over it, lardass.
     
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  15. bluetrain4

    bluetrain4 Legend

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    I really think that overtime, she will be ranked among all-time players accordingly.

    Right now she has 8 slams and a career grand slam, not to mention doubles slams, and time spent at No. 1.

    That is impressive no matter what you think of her and certaintly puts her in the top 10.

    But, no one will seriously but her up there in the Graf-Navratilova-Evret group, unless she does a LOT more, no matter her potential. Other players like Court an Seles will also probably remain above her unless she wins more slams.

    The current media is familar with Serena, so some make excuses for her. Those excuses will fade away as she becomes more of a historical figure - no one will care.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2007
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  16. lordmanji

    lordmanji Guest

    not to mention her lack of regular tournament play (and wins) in recent years. she's only been playing slams exclusively.
     
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  17. tennispro11

    tennispro11 Hall of Fame

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    Wow another thread made racial by you. Way to go. You deserve a cookie and glass of milk.
     
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  18. Ronaldo

    Ronaldo G.O.A.T.

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    Pity, neither Henin or Serena will ever reach their potential or former condition again. Serena never completely got over that knee injury, Justine cannot train as hard as she once did and has some off days. Anyone wonder if modern testing has changed their fortunes?
     
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  19. alwaysatnet

    alwaysatnet Semi-Pro

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    Except for one rare instance,Agassi, players that start moving down the ladder of success never make it back to the top.
    I don't think Serena Williams will be the other exception to that rule.

    But still based on her past accomplishments in would be hard for me,and I don't think much of her personally, to not place her in the top ten players ever. Graf,Seles,Navratilova,Evert,Court-Smith,Billie Jean King and then who is better than Williams? I don't think she can be excluded based on her record.
     
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  20. Tennis_Monk

    Tennis_Monk Hall of Fame

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    I would rather keep quiet for i have nothing good to say about the Sore looser Serena.

    Btw in order to reconsider greatness shouldnt one be great to start with?
     
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  21. charlottefromca

    charlottefromca Rookie

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    I don't like Serena.. SORE LOSER QUEEN.

    But even I have to admit she is a lock right now in the top 10 (at least in the open era, I don't know anything before that).

    How many women can boast holding all the slams at the same time... not many..
     
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  22. Nadal_Freak

    Nadal_Freak Banned

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    Serena at her best is the GOAT but she didn't keep that level because of a knee injury and getting overweight. It's too bad. She still is a threat though as proven at the Australian Open this year.
     
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  23. philly

    philly New User

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    I think Serena is definitely in top 10 of all time but at the lower end of that group of players. the problem with being in the lower tier of greats is that your status as a great is constantly under threat from others ie. her greatness is not unassailable. Certainly Justine Henin, if she ends up taking out wimbledon and a few other slams next year I would definitely say would push Serena down the list further.
     
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  24. CyBorg

    CyBorg Legend

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    Serena beat Venus in each of her successful finals appearances. This is pretty much my only beef. These matches were always horribly lacking in quality.
     
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  25. Polaris

    Polaris Hall of Fame

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    Serena is already among the all-time greats, and I don't understand how this became debatable all of a sudden. She may be a sore loser, and may not exactly be a good ambassador for tennis, but her GS record speaks for itself.
     
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  26. saram

    saram Legend

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    Because Mac gave a crap about tennis and showed up 11 months out of the year where Serena only shows up and participates in four slams and 8 weeks out of the year. COULD she be a dominant player and considered one of the GOATS in question?

    Yeah, if she gave a crap, played all year, devoted herself to the sport as she did in the beginning of her career, etc. Now, she just shows up like PMS on tour and gives a slam a whirl.
     
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  27. krz

    krz Professional

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    Court has 24
    Graf has 22
    Navratilova has 18
    Evert has 18
    King has 12

    Shes not even in the conversation for greatest of all time. Come back to me when she hits double digit slams.

    Does this mean shes not a great player? No, of course shes a great player. But, no where near the accomplishments to be considered the greatest of all time.

    btw, Justine Henin sits only 1 GS behind Serena now and she is in her prime now. I'd have to say that Henin has a chance to finish with more grand slams and with a longer stint at number 1 and already has more career wins than Serena. So she is not safe from even being called the greatest of her time.
     
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  28. phoony

    phoony Banned

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    Serena a true fighter. I never denied her but i p*** off her attitude on court. Sometimes you may win sometimes you may lose. Indeed you have to accept the fact not by giving so many excuses which made a lot of haters even hated her. She really need to change her attitude. Make Venus as a good examples.
     
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  29. phoony

    phoony Banned

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    Don't talked about race and color. Is all about tennis. Judge your own statement again.
     
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  30. janipyt05

    janipyt05 Professional

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    She has done and has accomplished. Who right now in the womens game has 8 slams, who now has won the grand slam in singles and has won every slam in doubles and all the other torphies she has i need not name them all
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2007
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  31. lordmanji

    lordmanji Guest

    this is exactly the type of comment as to why i made this thread. there are so many fallacies with this "if she's at her best then shes unbeatable" argument starting with the HUGE LEAPS of skill from one tennis generation to the next. but let's just stay contemporary shall we? she's been beaten by henin three times in a year and the one time she won a slam this year, henin wasn't playing.

    it doesnt matter how youre playing but the result. and you can say champions like serena bring their best to a grand slam and even won the AO. so i dont buy that she didnt bring her best to the three defeats by henin.

    put it this way, if henin was playing at her best v serena at her best, id take henin still. does that make henin GOAT? lol of course not. just count the number of slams and you have a list of true GOATs.
     
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  32. krz

    krz Professional

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    Thank you, maybe she will actually listen to you, since anybody who disagrees with her is obviously racists and against women.
     
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  33. tennissavy

    tennissavy Hall of Fame

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    I totally agree with this post. I do not like Serena. I never did. I will never forgive her for refusing to shake Mary Jo Fernandez's hand at Roland Garros either. However, with all her grand slam titles and doubles gold medal at the olympics as well as her incredible mental toughness, I also greatly admire her.
     
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  34. tangerine

    tangerine Professional

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    Newsflash: the Williams sisters haven't been truly dominant since 2002.

    Same with Henin. She is clearly a class above everyone else but she's not as dominant as she could be.
     
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  35. callitout

    callitout Professional

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    Seems many people cant distinguish between great and greatest.
    Okay, she's not the greatest. But shes about 10th all time...which is surely great. Could she have been the greatest? Who cares. Does her attitude stink...sort of. She talks a lot of smack and makes phony excuses, and doesnt credit her opponents. At the same time she's very difficult to beat on the tennis court. She has the confidence to go for her shots under pressure and that has won her 8 majors.
     
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  36. Nadal_Freak

    Nadal_Freak Banned

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    Serena hasn't been at her best since 2002. Serena at her best can beat Henin at her best on any surface but clay. She has not been the same since. She is now half the player she was before that knee injury.
     
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  37. Ronaldo

    Ronaldo G.O.A.T.

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    29% according to Serena
     
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  38. vicnan

    vicnan Professional

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    Serena is not great. Not in terms of her tennis at least. Even if she amasses more majors, her attitude toward the sport and her opponents will remain a blemish. She is a rare player who epitomizes a sore winner and a sorer loser in one person -- she is truly great at this. She did have a great year not long ago -- the Serena Slam.
     
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  39. Nadal_Freak

    Nadal_Freak Banned

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    She is good now and great 5 years ago. So what if she doesn't always say the right things. It is apart of her that makes her great.
     
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  40. bluetrain4

    bluetrain4 Legend

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    The entire premise of this thread is off. First, no seriously knowledgeable tennis fan or commentator includes Serena in GOAT discussions.

    When there is talk about the all time great players (plural), she is included, and that is based purely on her results, which, whether you love her, hate her, or are indifferent, are outstanding - 8 Slams, career grand slam, Olympic gold (in doubles), No. 1., doubles Slams.

    The "healthy and motivated" talk is pure conjecture and speculation, which commentators often bring up for discussion purposes. But, this in no way moves her up on the list of all time greats.

    They do it for Seles (though admittedly being stabbed and having to miss time is different than missing time due to motivation), some (not all) do it in the opposite direction in regards to Graf (what if Seles haven't been stabbed), they point out that Margaret Court's record, becuase it includes a lot of AO wins when the AO wasn't that big of a deal and only a portion of her slams were in the open era, and for that reason she's not put above Graf as GOAT.

    No serious follower of the sport puts Serena near Graf, Navratilova, Evret, and most still put Court, King, Seles above her. Henin is clearly on her way to surpassing her, especially if she wins Wimbledon, but maybe even if she doesn't. Of course, Serena can still win more Slams as well.

    If anything, in the long run, her lack of committment will be held against her. Of course in the future, when commentators talk about Serena, they comment will inevitably be made "and she could have won even more," but again, this is just commentator banter, it doesn't affect her position (in the top 10, but not in the top 5) at all.

    So, your whole theory that Serena is somehow being misplaced amount the all time greats due to talk of her lack of focus and injuries just doesn't hold up. I understand that it can get annyoing because it distracts from players who are focused and it sound like excuse making

    There will always be some people who promote her place in history higher than others, but that's true of almost every player. As a whole, the tennis community isn't stupid and I think Serena will be ranked accordingly.
     
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  41. federerfanatic

    federerfanatic Banned

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    For sure: Steffi Graf, Margaret Court, Martina Navratilova, Chris Evert, Suzanne Lenglen, Helen Wills Moody, Billie Jean King, Maureen Connoly, Monica Seles. That is already 9.

    Arguably: Maria Bueno

    So she is right on the bubble in that 10 or 11 range in fact.
     
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  42. federerfanatic

    federerfanatic Banned

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    Most Slam singles titles:

    Margaret Court - 24
    Steffi Graf - 22
    Helen Wills Moody - 19
    Martina Navratilova - 18
    Chris Evert - 18
    Suzanne Lenglen - 12 (only played 13)
    Billie Jean King - 12 (hardly ever played Australia)
    Maureen Connoly - 9 (career cut short)
    Monica Seles - 9 (prime cut short)
    Serena Williams - 8
    Molla Mallorey - 8 (not really a major great in history though, won all her U.S Opens but one with Lenglen not going overseas)
    Maria Bueno - 7 (hardly ever played Australia)
    Evonne Goolagong - 7 (big difference from Bueno though is 4 of hers were at the then depleted Aussie Open)
    Justine Henin - 7

    Those who think Serena is anywhere close to the top 5 all time are delusional and she isnt even neccessarily clear cut in the top 10.
     
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  43. federerfanatic

    federerfanatic Banned

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    Exactly. Serena does not even scrape the surface of all-time greatest discussion. Not only that, but as you said there is a good shot Justine eclipses her as the greatest player of this generation by careers end as well. Given that Serena ony has 2 slams since 2003, and Justine has 5, that seems to be a pretty good bet.
     
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  44. Connors

    Connors Banned

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    As much as she irritates me, Serena is clearly a top 10 of all time. She is NOT top 5 however. You cannot put her in Graf, Navratilova, Evert or Billy Jean's level. Just check the numbers. While she has more overall ability than Evert, Chris won over 100 tournaments and 18 majors (a many slam finals). She maintained excellence for years--something Serena has not even come close to doing--and probably won't.

    I might put her around 7 or 8 or all time. I'd put her above Davenport and Sanchez. I think Justine will end up being considered better though.
     
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  45. CEvertFan

    CEvertFan Hall of Fame

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    The only things that Serena has more of than Evert are power, breasts and ass and perhaps the serve. In every other category of tennis ability, Evert outclasses Serena.


    Also, Evert won 157 singles titles in her career which is 2nd only to Navratilova.
     
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  46. Bones08

    Bones08 Professional

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    i Agree 100%
     
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  47. grafrules

    grafrules Banned

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    I laughed out loud reading that. :p The only thing I would add to that are excuses. She has many more of those then Evert did for her losses.
     
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  48. callitout

    callitout Professional

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    Yeah youre really not a great player if your not in the top 10 all time.
    Shall we call her a journey(wo)man.
    She's pretty much the Michael Russell of women's tennis right? Oh, thats not fair is it. Because he's a better sport.
    Some of the talk here is totally absurd. The topic was about whether it is reasonable to talk about Serena at her best as in the conversation with the top 10...of course it is. Even with her poor conditioning she's on the cusp of top 10 in slam titles with her career not yet over.
    Is she actually a rival for Goat of course not.
    But Lendl was a great player and its very hard to speak seriously about him as goat...or even a nice guy.
     
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  49. Nadal_Freak

    Nadal_Freak Banned

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    I agree. I come here for comedy relief though as absurd as some of the remarks around here are.
     
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  50. Sim882

    Sim882 Guest

    You can't judge best women's player by amount of grandslams - women's tennis was crap pre Davenport era. For example, Graf lost some grand slam finals to Sanchez, who would probably get trashed 6/2 or worse in both sets by either Henin or Williams.

    Did you see Serena in AO final this year - the GOAT (at her best).

    It is just a shame she has an eating addiction
     
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