Should Serena's Greatness be Reconsidered?

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by lordmanji, Sep 14, 2007.

  1. Wuornos

    Wuornos Professional

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    Yes i have her in the top 10 at number 8 of the open era. The most Justine can do by overhauling her is push her down to 9th.

    I'm not sure If I like her personality or at lkeast the personality that is portrayed by the media but hel you can't take her achievements away from her just because she's a bit past her best now and Justne can beat her.
     
    #51
  2. Ronaldo

    Ronaldo G.O.A.T.

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    Serena has a weight problem, just can't wait to eat, eh?
     
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  3. bluetrain4

    bluetrain4 Legend

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    I get what you're saying, but also disagree. Her attitude and her tennis don't go hand in hand. True, at some level, if she were a better ambassador for the sport, it might elevate her in the overall rank of great players, but only marginally. Serena's tennis accomplishments are fact, and based on those accomplishments, she is (at least currently) one of the Top 10 (not top 5) players to ever play the game. Her attitude may be a talking point among commentators in the future (I can almost here them saying, "one of the best to play the game, even if not the most beloved"), but still it really doesn't take away from her tennis accomplishments.

    The only way her attitude can affect her ranking (and I realize the futility of ranking tennis players since everyone has their own opinions) is among those ranked right around her. For example, if Serena ends her career tied with Seles at 9 slams, well then I'm sure many people would rank Seles higher due to the stabbing and because Seles was a great ambassador for the game (though those arguing in favor of Serena would point out the career grand slam)

    Aranxta Sanchez Vicario was one of the hardest working, energetic, vivacious competitors, and she had a great attitude. But, no one is ever going to put ASV above Serena.

    So, Serena's attitude can effect her place among the greats a little bit, but won't do much overall.
     
    #53
  4. Ronaldo

    Ronaldo G.O.A.T.

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    Btw, Serena and Venus are now in the top 10 again.
     
    #54
  5. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    Rank Name Country Grand Slams Won-Grand Slams Lost (Grand Slam Win %)
    1 Margaret Smith Court Australia 24-5 (82.8%)
    2 Steffi Graf Germany 22-9 (71.0%)
    3 Helen Wills Moody United States 19-3 (86.4%)
    4 Martina Navratilova Czechoslovakia/United States 18-14 (56.3%)
    = Chris Evert United States 18-16 (52.9%)
    6 Suzanne Lenglen France 12-0 (100.0%)
    = Billie Jean King United States 12-6 (66.7%)
    8 Maureen Connolly Brinker United States 9-0 (100.0%)
    = Monica Seles Yugoslavia/United States 9-4 (69.2%)
    10 Serena Williams United States 8-2 (80.0%)
    = Molla Bjurstedt Mallory United States 8-4 (66.7%)
    12 Dorothea Douglass United Kingdom 7-4 (63.6%)
    = Justine Henin Belgium 7-4 (63.6%)
    = Maria Bueno Brazil 7-5 (58.3.0%)
    = Evonne Goolagong Cawley Australia 7-11 (38.9%)
    16 Nancye Wynne Bolton Australia 6-3 (66.7%)
    = Margaret Osborne duPont United States 6-4 (60.0%)
    = Venus Williams United States 6-6 (50.0%)
    = Blanche Bingley Hillyard United Kingdom 6-7 (46.2%)
    = Louise Brough Clapp United States 6-8 (42.9%)
    = Doris Hart United States 6-12 (33.3%)
     
    #55
  6. DaMiBru

    DaMiBru New User

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    I must say that I'd have to agree with Blackgirlx to a certain extend.
    Why criticize Serena with a nonsense question whether or not her greatness should be reconsidered while she clearly has an outstanding track record. Anyone who doesn't see Serena as one of the ATG needs to get their heads examined. Roddick, IMHO, isn't even a great tennis player. He has made a very immature comment about Federer on the TC which IMHO doesn't even have anything to do with tennis. He is a very sore loser and also very arrogant. He doesn't have an outstanding track record and yet only suffers a small margin of the amount of criticism Serena gets. But it's hard to stay objective isn't it?
    Secondly, I could easily start another nonsense thread asking the same Question about Bjorn Borg. Since he ripped people out of a humongous amount of money after his tennis career which he waved goodbye to at only 27. Yet he's the great Bjorn Borg. Maybe even the GOAT?
    There was a period in time where no one in the WTA could even come close to Serena's level of tennis. That will always stand and as of yet I haven't seen anything better then that level. Personally, as a Serena fan, I'd love to see her find her old level of dedication. Become a tennis legend first and after that there's plenty of time left to design clothing.
    Thirdly can we please stop this GOAT nonsense. Especially when we compare 60's tennis with current tennis. There is no such comparison. Tennis is still very much an evolving sport. It has become way faster then even 10 years ago. There is no GOAT. If there is he/she had better win ALL tournaments entered. Had better stay in the nr. 1 position for the duration of his/her career. Tennis has produced GREAT players and Serena is one of them!
     
    #56
  7. superman1

    superman1 Legend

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    Compare her now to a few years ago. She's completely out of shape (and delusional about it) and is still beating almost everyone except Henin.

    I don't like her, but she is certainly one of the second tier greats. And an absolute waste of ability.
     
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  8. hyogen

    hyogen Hall of Fame

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    serena is just nastay...
     
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  9. hyogen

    hyogen Hall of Fame

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    serena is a very sore loser as well.. did you see her press conference after her loss to justine at this years us open?

    lawl...
     
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  10. breakfast_of_champions

    breakfast_of_champions Banned

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    two cheapass aussies at that.
     
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  11. tennisjunkiela

    tennisjunkiela Semi-Pro

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    serena's greatness is undeniable - her 14 grandslams (8 singles, 4 doubles, 2 mixed doubles, 1 olympic gold) tell the whole story - end of story!

    it seems that many people are letting their personal dislike of serena cloud the facts - serena is only behind court, graf, navratilova, evert, king, and seles in number of grand slam single titles. that makes her #7 on the all-time greats list. she only needs 1 more slam to tie seles, which is very acheivable for her over the next 5 years! given her doubles & mixed doubles slams as well as her 4 slams in a row (1 of only 4 women ever to accomplish this), i would actually rank her at #6 now, in front of seles. realistically, i don't think serena has much of a chance to catch king (15 slams), unless she decides to play another 7 or so years, so #6 is about as high as she can go on the all-time greats list (not shabby at all!)

    now regarding serena's attitude - it stinks, plain and simple! i am a fan of hers because of her incredible mental toughness (it has won her many matches) and i also don't have any problem with her thinking so highly of herself (male athletes do it all the time with little repercussion - can you say joe namath and muhammad ali); however, serena's total lack of graciousness after losing to henin at the us open was atrocious. henin did not win because of some "lucky shots" - henin kicked serena's ass plain and simple! at wimby, serena was obviously injured and was at a major disadvantage; however, at the french and the us open, serena simply got ran ragged and beat by a better player that day - end of story!

    now, we'll see what serena is really made of. will she get motivated and re-dedicate herself to the sport or will she just continue to show at the slams and just hope for the best? her belief and power alone will win her another 1 -2 slams but, to consistently beat henin and venus (IMO, the only other 2 current players who are of the same talent level as serena) and win 3 or more slams before she retires, serena is going to have to put in some work or she will soon find herself behind henin and venus in grand slam titles!

    open letter to serena - run some miles and exercise some discipline in your diet! navratilova put in the work and totally transformed her career and legacy! she went from being an also-ran to american media darling chrissie evert to, being arguably the greatest female athlete (not just tennis player) that the world has ever seen! plain and simple - no pain, no gain!
     
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  12. THUNDERVOLLEY

    THUNDERVOLLEY G.O.A.T.

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    ....not to mention the rest of her titles....but I must remember, certain members only operate off of something other than truth, so anti-Serena posts continue.
     
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  13. BluBarry

    BluBarry Semi-Pro

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    I tend to agree with Moose Man on this topic. This is NOT to say Jennifer Capriati should be mentioned within the conversations of the GOAT but I (at least for one) was Xtremely impressed by her comeback winning the Australian Open & French Open back-to-back at a time everyone including the Press wrote her off as a has-been.

    Point is, Serena is delusional in thinking she is in great shape right now. Even if she is in as good as she can get physically because of her genetics, her mental ability is no where near what it was when she was on top of the game.

    If Serena, were to regain both her physical condition for this type of competition & combine that with her mental condition for this type of competition, I truly believe she would be unbeatable and then regain her place in conversations
    Re:the GOAT.
     
    #63
  14. Lee James

    Lee James Rookie

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    My problem with the goat arguments is that it isn't always objective. Someone should create a concrete list of rules for which to judge all players by when it comes to goat status. Should attitude and motivation be taken into consideration? Should slams be the only thing that matter?
     
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  15. Rhino

    Rhino Legend

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    She was pretty good, and that will always stand. it may be that she is remembered more for being not very pleasant, but titles are titles.
     
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  16. Shaolin

    Shaolin Hall of Fame

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    GBOAT:

    Greatest Booty of All Time
     
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  17. hyogen

    hyogen Hall of Fame

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    :: sticking finger down throat :: :mad:
     
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  18. Shaolin

    Shaolin Hall of Fame

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    Anorexia is a serious issue, you should seek help for that.
     
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  19. krz

    krz Professional

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    its bulimia, get it right! :p
     
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  20. Shaolin

    Shaolin Hall of Fame

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    lol thanks, youre right, sorry!
     
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  21. Morrissey

    Morrissey Guest

    You know what? As much as I can´t stand the girl along with her antics, excuses and her ugly clothing her greatness is assured. She´s won a lot of slams, 8 or 9? I´m not keeping count with her but she´s done a lot in Grand Slams. Her legacy is safe, too bad the sore losing and ugly dressing overshadows it for me.
     
    #71
  22. heartman

    heartman Rookie

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    She's a crabby crab - let her go lie by her dish.

    And GBOAT? What are you talking about - she holds the top three spots on the list!
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2007
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  23. tbini87

    tbini87 Hall of Fame

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    totally agree. when you are discussing players you have to do it objectively, and not let someone's personality obstruct your view of their accomplishments. she is a great player, even if she is no longer in the "top tier". you have to look at her entire career and judge her accordingly.
     
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  24. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    She is the current holder of a grand slam title. How can she not be considered 'top tier' currently?

    Other than that, I completely agree with what you wrote.
     
    #74
  25. lambielspins

    lambielspins Banned

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    There are already 9 women with more slams then she has, and if Justine Henin passes her there will be 10 women with more slams then she has. So she is not entrenched in the top 10 by any means. She gets brownie points for winning all 4 slams in a row, something only Graf, Navratilova, Connoly, Court ever managed. She loses points for the inconsistency of her career though, allowing herself to be dropping so far in years during her span of winning slam titles. Also even if she passes Seles or Connoly who have 9 slams, she did not have her career stopped halfway through with a misfortune like they did so that would not be enough unless she went well past them.
     
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  26. vicnan

    vicnan Professional

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    Anyone who thinks Serena is great should reconsider their understanding of greatness.

    Of course, like a few others, she has the potential to be one. But first she will have to stop munching on burgers, rededicate herself exclusively to the sport and to stop behaving like a spoiled brat and a sore loser when she loses.
     
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  27. 93sq.

    93sq. Semi-Pro

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    Serena...Henin...GOAT!?In which sport!?waterpolo!?
     
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  28. Ronaldo

    Ronaldo G.O.A.T.

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    That's when we call her Venus, eh?
     
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  29. 93sq.

    93sq. Semi-Pro

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    However....in my humble opinion....williams sisters are both better than justine...
     
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  30. justineheninhoogenbandfan

    justineheninhoogenbandfan Banned

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    I have no problem with that point of view at this point in time. Justine has 1 more slam title then Venus, however Venus won all 6 of her slams at the biggest 2 - Wimbledon and the U.S Open. Justine won only 3 of her slams at those biggest 2. Serena won 8 total slams, although 3 of hers were at the least important - Australian Open. I think right now Serena and Venus are actually quite close, with Serena getting the nod because of her non calender slam, with Justine close behind Venus. By the end of next year I expect Justine to be over both though.
     
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  31. West Coast Ace

    West Coast Ace G.O.A.T.

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    If she quit today there's no denying she was Great - but she could also be called a huge Underachiever because of how many more Slams she should have won if she had an integrity about the sport and wasn't just chasing the money...

    If you added - "on any surface not clay" I could buy that. She'd beat either of them 9 out of 10 at the French - they couldn't claim such a dominance over her on any surface - she'd win at least 3 or 4 out of 10 even on the fastest surfaces.

    I agree - we will still see flashes from the Sisters - but they show no propensity that this time in their careers to perform at a high level for an extended period of time. Justine just keeps on rolling...
     
    #81
  32. blinkinrogue

    blinkinrogue Rookie

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    i thnk juju is more accomplished than venus, she has won 3/4, venus 2/4 currently, plus she has 7 to venus' 6 (all majors are equal on paper).
     
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  33. obanaghan

    obanaghan New User

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    Any player who held all 4 Grand Slam singles titles at the same time is one of the greatest players of all time regardless of what she does afterwards. Mo Connolly did not play much after her hey day. Why should Serena be penalized for losing to JH three times? Apparently she is still good enough to win the Aussie Open and destroy Sharapova in the process.

    However, to be THE greatest you have to either dominate for a long time or be so high above the field that NO ONE could touch you. I don't think Serena can fairly say that she meets either of these criteria but to dismiss her because she lost the VS of Whocaresville is silly.
     
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  34. keithchircop

    keithchircop Professional

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    Should her "bigness" be reconsidered?
     
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  35. keithchircop

    keithchircop Professional

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    If she'd only participate in slams and win most of them, it would be another story.
     
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  36. my_forehand

    my_forehand Professional

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    You can hate her cuz her excuses but to hate her cuz she doesn't show is different. If she doesn't give a crap, that's her problem
     
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  37. Kaptain Karl

    Kaptain Karl Hall Of Fame

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  38. Rodditha

    Rodditha Banned

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    Is kaptain karl a mod ?
     
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  39. capriatifanatic

    capriatifanatic Banned

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    Jen also dominated her in her prime in 2001. She won 3 of their 4 matches that year.
     
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