SHRINKING GRIPS of modern day player from TENNIS magazine. Don't get it???

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by Fedace, Aug 16, 2009.

  1. Fedace

    Fedace Banned

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    What about Federer ? he is a decent volleyer?
     
    #51
  2. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    [​IMG]

    No, the racquet face is completely different on the two above shots compared to Querreys shot. At contact with the ball, Querrey's stringbed is perpendicular with the net (i.e. completely closed). No way that ball is clearing the net unless he has glue sticking it to the underside of his strings... and then flings it over the net :oops:

    Look at the difference in the racquet faces on the above pics. Querrey's racquet face is completely closed.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2009
    #52
  3. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    [​IMG]

    Every pic of yours that you're showing after Querrey... the racquet face is partially open. His is completely closed. Can you not see that?

    Can you not see the difference between Roddick's racquet face and Querrey's racquet face at contact? They are night and day different.

    Roddick's stringbed at contact is almost parallel with the net while Querrey's is almost perpendicular to the net. There is like 80 degrees difference between them. How can you even compare them?
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2009
    #53
  4. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    I completely agree with you. It is unnatural and was probably someone who inadvertently snapped a picture of a mishit.

    You can't hit a ball (at contact) with a completely closed racquet face and have it clear the net. It's not physically possible.
     
    #54
  5. teachestennis

    teachestennis Rookie

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    Wrong, Querrey hit the ball with the lower part of his swings per the other pics I posted and then his racket folded up over the top of the ball before recovering to it's normal angle. I assure you this was not a mishit. I first saw a super slo mo of Agassi doing this and you could stop it right with his racket at the same angle as Querrey's here. this video was passed around to a lot of coaches as we tried to figure out what happened. Then Oscar Wegner came to St. Louis and explained it perfectly and then we found out it was not that uncommon. Think about it, if the ball pushes against the bottom of the strings and you have a loose grip, it will "flutter" or "twist" but then quickly recover. I'll try to find a federer super slo mo showing this.
     
    #55
  6. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    ... And you won't find one - because you can't hit a ball with a completely closed racquet face and have it clear the net.

    Every pic you show beside Querrey's shows the racquet face open and closing (since the other players - especially Dinara and the guy in the blue headband) have already struck the ball and the racquet face naturally closes as they follow through.)

    In Querrey's pic, it was snapped AT CONTACT... not after contact. Again, you can contact a ball with a completely closed racquet face and have it clear the net... unless you're like 20 feet above the net at contact. Something odd is happening in the Querrey photo.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2009
    #56
  7. AlpineCadet

    AlpineCadet Hall of Fame

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    Curious: How can you tell that it was taken at contact?
     
    #57
  8. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    Last edited: Aug 17, 2009
    #58
  9. AlpineCadet

    AlpineCadet Hall of Fame

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    Does Querrey always hit like that, or is that just an exception?
     
    #59
  10. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    The ball is touching the strings :oops:
     
    #60
  11. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    Let me see if I can find a slow-mo of Querrey's NORMAL FH :)
     
    #61
  12. teachestennis

    teachestennis Rookie

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    I also waited five years to get this exact pic, showing the racket twisting over the ball. I put the Roddick pic inthere to explain how it happens. The racket closes over the ball because they swing so hard with a loose grip, then it opens back up.
     
    #62
  13. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    Yes, you waited 5 years because it never happens in regular tennis play. It was a mishit.

    Here's Federer - from a slow-mo clip, taken at contact with the ball:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmhvKafCYsk
    [​IMG]

    Here's Safina from a slow-mo video... at contact. Again, the racquet face is nowhere near closed... as shown in Querrey's pic.
    http://vodpod.com/watch/1414197-dinara-safina-forehand-prostrokes-2-0-slow-motion

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2009
    #63
  14. TenniseaWilliams

    TenniseaWilliams Professional

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    Querrey just got it early. Look how low the contact is vs everyone else.

    EDIT: The last fed post isn't really that severe a grip.
     
    #64
  15. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    You can not hit a ball with a completely closed racquet face and have it fly over the net. Try it, sometime :roll:

    It doesn't matter what grip you use... the racquet face has to be open to some degree at contact.

    Look at the difference between Federer's/Dinara's racquet face at contact... and then look at Querrey's.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2009
    #65
  16. AlpineCadet

    AlpineCadet Hall of Fame

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    To me, it looks like it's just after contact. He's a pro.. he wouldn't just slam the side of his racket at the ball.
     
    #66
  17. teachestennis

    teachestennis Rookie

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    Now you can see it on Federer. Federer's does not go totally parallel because this is not truly high speed 1000 frames per second but it shows the racket literally flopping during his swing. I look at tons of pics a year, always on lookout for that ball under the strings like that, and I assure you, if Querry had actually mishit that ball so badly, in this case, it would appear he practically missed, it, the announcers or the press reports would have likely noted since it's rare to see a pro whiff a normal forehand.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNPaZj4yn00

    I think this video shows a bit of the racket twisting, Querry just twisted more than most do, but this happens a lot.
     
    #67
  18. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    Look at the other two slow-mo videos... and every other slow-mo video you can find and they will resemble Federer/Safina's screenshots I've shown above.

    The racquet face closes way after contact during the last part of the follow through.
     
    #68
  19. teachestennis

    teachestennis Rookie

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    The racket was open. I said the pros hit their "BEST" shots with lower part of the strings with the racket slightly closed. Not all shots are hit that way, sometimes you just have to get the strings on the ball and get it back.

    I also said the racket was open at contact but it twists which I just posted a video clip of Federer for you to take a look at, and notice how Fed's racket goes back to the original angle after closing (twisting) suddenly. Querrey just torqued this one really good, was going so fast, but I knew it would make a nice point and debate which is why I snatched it up when I saw it.

    Tell me you didn't see Fed's racquet suddenly close over the ball on the video clip I provided and all I can say is the evidence speaks for itself.
     
    #69
  20. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    Here's a stop frame at contact of the link you just posted:
    [​IMG]


    Does that look like Querrey at contact (below)?

    [​IMG]

    There is almost 90 degrees difference between the angle of their racquet faces.
     
    #70
  21. teachestennis

    teachestennis Rookie

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    On the first two FH, Feds racquet closes but not as severe as Querrey's. When you see FEd in green headband, the third FH is a buggey whip and you can stop the racquet at almost same spot as Querrey's watch it carefully. The third FH with teh green headband of FEd doing a Buggywhip (reverse FH). Na na na boo boo, lol.
     
    #71
  22. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    I can not believe you don't see the difference in the angle of Federer's racquet face compared to Querrey's.

    They are completely different!

    If Querrey struck a ball with his racquet face angled like this pic... he'd be lucky if the ball hit the net (not cleared the net) prior to hitting the court first.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2009
    #72
  23. teachestennis

    teachestennis Rookie

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    Bud, stop it at 1:17 and 1:18. I dont' know how you copy it to this box. It is just like Querrey's. Ha!
     
    #73
  24. teachestennis

    teachestennis Rookie

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    Did you look at 1:17 and 1:18. Sure, the ball has left Fed's racquet because his swing is probably accelerating faster than Querry's but you see the racquet close parallel to court surface, or at least very close. Post the still of 1:17 and 1:18 and then everyone will see the truth.
     
    #74
  25. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    OK, here you go... again.

    His racquet face is almost completely open and about 80 degrees different from Querrey's.

    You keep proving my point. The difference is night and day.

    [​IMG]

    At 1:18 he is following through, his racquet face is similar to Querrey's but the ball is out of frame and not on his strings like Querrey's is shown. That's the difference... This shot of Querrey is taken when the ball is right on his racquet. Not a second after he strikes it... like Federer above. Notice there is no ball visible in the Federer pic because it's already over the net by the time his racquet face closes.

    [​IMG]



    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2009
    #75
  26. teachestennis

    teachestennis Rookie

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    Great debate guys, but still waiting for Bud to post the evidence. I have to conk out as it's nearly 1am here though I could stay up all night because I know I'm right about this. Querrey just swung so hard with such a loose grip that the racquet was slightly open at contact, then folded over the ball before moving across it and the ball likely propelled across the net.

    Bud, I know tennis theory like very few. Go to my website, www.ez-tennis.com if you have any doubt I can coach or go to the History of Tennis Instruction if you doubt I've read nearly every popular tennis book ever written. These are exerpts from the book I'm writing.

    http://www.moderntenniscoaches.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=13
     
    #76
  27. teachestennis

    teachestennis Rookie

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    then it's 1:18 and 1:19, my eyes must be tired, but I'm looking at it right now and it's between 1:17 and 1:18. You need to put in the next couple frames. Unfair. I told you it's between 1:17 and 1:18. You took the first frame only. Now post the next two.
     
    #77
  28. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    The evidence is in post #75.

    If this was Querrey's racquet face closing during his follow through, the ball would not be anywhere near his strings. Do you realize how far the ball travels in 1 second?

    Also, look at the racquet height in the Federer pic when his racquet face is similar to Querreys... it's above his head (as he's following through).
     
    #78
  29. teachestennis

    teachestennis Rookie

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    We are not talking about contact, Querry's racquet struck the ball and it is simply almost a double hit as his racket twisted and closed over the ball before recovering to normal racquet angle.

    Now show those next two frames and then let the audience be the judge or tomorrow I'll figure out how to post them.
     
    #79
  30. TenniseaWilliams

    TenniseaWilliams Professional

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    #80
  31. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    Are you serious? That's your argument... it was a double hit? :lol:

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2009
    #81
  32. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    That's still not similar to this (and not even close as far as the racquet face).

    [​IMG]

    Again, Federer has already hit the ball... his racquet is way above the ball (i.e. follow through), the ball is much further in front of the racquet (than the Querrey pic) and his racquet face is still open about 35 degrees more than Querrey's.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2009
    #82
  33. teachestennis

    teachestennis Rookie

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    You are correct about frame 75, didn't see it posted as I'm tired and not typing fast. I know exactly how far the ball travels in one second, in actuality, it travels 22 feet at 60 MPH by the time the brain can even register that the strings touched the ball.

    What likely happened is that Querrey, with a severe western grip, literally torqued straight up and over the ball and the racquet twisted. That still of Fed's racquet closed would have been seen just one frame after contact because I stopped it and yes the ball was propelled forward but the twist was severe. Querrey's contact point is much further back.

    Great debate but now you see even the Fed's racket twisting and closing right after contact, which is all I claimed Querrey's did. Until tomorrow.
     
    #83
  34. AlpineCadet

    AlpineCadet Hall of Fame

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    Same concept, slower racket head speed.
     
    #84
  35. TenniseaWilliams

    TenniseaWilliams Professional

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    All the fed shot proves is that he hit the ball low in the stringbed. Fed doesn't even sport an extreme grip.
     
    #85
  36. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    Again, the grip has nothing to do with it. Two people can have different grips yet strike the ball with the racquet face open at the same angle.

    A great example is shown above. Look at Dinara's racquet face at contact and look at Fed's racquet face at contact. They are very similar. However, Dinara uses a SW to W grip and Fed uses an Eastern to SW grip.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2009
    #86
  37. teachestennis

    teachestennis Rookie

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    I didn't say double hit, it almost was, though. I have seen this in numerous videos, and thank for posting #82, but I can still see Fed's racquet almost parallel if I just go frame by frame. You will now start to see the racket twist a lot more than you think once you know what to look for.
     
    #87
  38. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    Something very odd happened in the Querrey still pic. We'll never know what, exactly, because we weren't there to witness it. But at least 3 people here on TT specifically noticed how odd it was when it was first posted. You will never see a person contact a ball with a completely closed racquet face (as shown in the Querrey pic) and still get the ball over the net. The racquet face starts to close a fraction of a second after impact and completely closes as it makes it way around the body. However, by the time it occurs, the ball is long gone from the picture.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2009
    #88
  39. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    It appears, looking at this pic with a more discerning eye, that Querrey was not balanced when he tried striking this ball and it even appears that he may have been 'jammed'. That may explain what appears to be a mishit and/or the odd approach angle of the racquet to the ball.

    Check out Federer's balance and body position in the still above and then look at the Querrey's contorted body as he attempts to strike this ball. Again, night and day difference.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2009
    #89
  40. adams_1

    adams_1 Semi-Pro

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    Looks shankalicious to me.
     
    #90
  41. darthpwner

    darthpwner Banned

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    wow how can querrey hit the ball over like that? high ball?
     
    #91
  42. ronalditop

    ronalditop Hall of Fame

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    that definitely has to be a shank or misshit.
     
    #92
  43. papatenis

    papatenis Semi-Pro

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    you should use the "correct" grip size if you are a serve and volley player, or you have "dead hands"
     
    #93
  44. PaulC

    PaulC Semi-Pro

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    Alberto Berasategui is the FATHER of this shot

    Gees... this crowd is way too young, and probaby never seen a player hit a forehand with the same racket face of his backhand almost all the time - Alberto Berasategui (1994 French Open runner-up)

    It was called a reverse forehand with a Hawiian grip, what's so strange about that???

    It happened 15 years ago and there's enough picture of similar happenings, though not as extreme as this one.
     
    #94
  45. lordmanji

    lordmanji Guest

    man youre an idiot. what are you like a 0.5 tennis player trying to make sense?
     
    #95
  46. lordmanji

    lordmanji Guest

    is that what its called? looks just like a full western to me since his index knuckle seems to be on the bevel on the edge of the racket.
     
    #96
  47. PaulC

    PaulC Semi-Pro

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    Actually this pic probably may not be the best demo.

    But consider the description on tennis magazine and by Johnny Mac years ago:

    "He hit his forehand with the same racket face of his backhand......."
    -- A full western grip won't do that, which is why they called it Hawaiian grip.

    Although I do agree that Querry's shot may ended up down the net, but essentially it's the same shot :)
     
    #97
  48. pvaudio

    pvaudio Legend

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    Hmm, whatever this is worth but I switched from a 4 1/2 to a 4 5/8 and use two overgrips on the bigger handled sticks and they feel better than ever. The extra meatiness helps the racquet feel a lot more grip heavy which really helps at the net, and since I serve and volley, that's a crucial advantage over a smaller grip.
     
    #98
  49. pvaudio

    pvaudio Legend

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    But then again, I have rather large hands so I don't know how relevant that is :D
     
    #99
  50. bhupaes

    bhupaes Professional

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    I agree, the loose grip is causing the racquet to twist at impact whenever contact happens below the sweet spot. But it doesn't look like the pros, including Federer, are deliberately trying to make contact under the sweet spot. It looks like they are trying to make contact at the sweet spot - and do make contact at or very close to the sweet spot most of the time. However, since the racquet head movement has an upward component near about the time of contact, probability dictates that contact will happen many times below the sweet spot, since humans are not that accurate, especially when swinging a racquet at high speed against a ball that's coming in blazingly fast.

    Also, I do not see any mechanical advantage of making contact below the sweet spot... except perhaps that the string bed will be stiffer nearer to the frame. Perhaps the sensation of hitting below the sweet spot, nearer to the frame, gives a better feel for the ball... I can't tell.

    This concept is very hard for me to understand.
     

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