SHRINKING GRIPS of modern day player from TENNIS magazine. Don't get it???

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by Fedace, Aug 16, 2009.

  1. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, something odd happened and you will never know cause you don't want to listen to one of the few men have studied this in depth for years, as he explains it to you. Because of Querry's western grip (and probably a lower contact closer to the frame), the same amount of torque will a allow the face to cover the ball quicker than Fed's more moderate grip. Even with Fed's more classic grip, he almost covers the ball in the same manner as depicted. Fed's swing just has more lift in it, which provides more vertical separation from the ball. Q's swing was flatter.

    Nice catch teachestennis.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2009
  2. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    [​IMG]


    I already addressed these points.

    I understand grips and know what a racquet face has to look like when it contacts the ball. I provided a number of examples for you to see... of a few different players using different grips. When the ball was at the location shown in this pic, their racquet face was about 80 degrees different than Querrey's.

    Why is it so hard for a few people chiming in on this thread to possibly believe that Querrey mishit a ball and someone happen to snap a pic of it? Look at his body position and the position of his arm? Does he look relaxed and balanced to you?

    You can not strike a ball with a completely closed racquet face, regardless of your grip, and have the ball clear the net.

    In the fraction of a section it takes for a racquet face to rotate to what you see in the Querrey pic, the ball will already be out of the frame of the picture.... NOT still sitting on/near the strings.

    Now, if that pic of Querrey's racquet face did not show any ball in the frame of the picture, then perhaps you may be correct.

    Again, go back... read the entire thread and look at the examples and explanation I provided for you.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2009
  3. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

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    Damn this argument took the thread away from the gripsize discussion.

    I think all TT is saying is that you want to hit a little below the sweet spot with a slightly closed face. I believe that too because when I focus on doing that, I get more control and spin. I also finish across my body instead of over the shoulder.
     
  4. pvaudio

    pvaudio Legend

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    You are 100% correct that a western grip user must generate more torque to get the same amount of height on the ball as an eastern grip user. However, at contact, there needs to be at least some perpendicular component to the string bed (aka the face must be facing the net at least in part), and in that picture, there is none. I understand completely what teachestennis is saying: he's saying that since the ball came in pretty hot and you hit the ball below the center of the face, the racquet head with pivot towards the net as the bottom of the face is pushed backwards. That's fine, you can see that clearly in slow motion videos of all players. The racquet face is never completely closed, however, as it is in the Querrey picture. It only gets that violent AFTER contact, not at contact. It can't be violent at contact anyway because the force of the ball hasn't been fully transferred yet. Immediately thereafter, absolutely. :)
     
  5. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I've read the thread and it just makes it clear that you can't accept that the racket can roll on top of the ball that quickly (with the ball still in the pic).
    I just think you are wrong.
    I think your points are logical but faulty logic in this case.
    In the slow motion, hi speed vids, I have seen several things that were hard to accept.
     
  6. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    IMHO the point is that the pic is right after contact,
    NOT initial contact.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2009
  7. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    Thanks, this is what a number of us have been pointing out. The racquet face can not be completely closed when the ball contacts the strings... as shown in the Querrey pic.

    I understand what a couple of others are stating about extreme grips (western, hawaiian, etc.) However, by the time the racquet rotates around (like the Querrey pic)... the ball is already out of frame... not still on or close to the strings... as shown in the pic.

    I provided a number of examples showing that... taken directly from slo-mo vids. It's obvious to a number of people responding to this thread that it was probably a mishit (as it does appear Querrey was jammed when he attempted the shot).

    Tennisea provided a nice pic showing Federer's racquet rotating to the "Querrey" position... but his racquet face is still open about 35 degrees, his racquet is quite a bit above the ball and the ball is at least 12" from where it struck his stringbed... after already hitting the ball. By the time Fed's racquet looks like Querrey's as it completes its follow through, the racquet will be much higher, futher around the body... and the ball will be way out of the photo frame (see pics below).

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2009
  8. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    Again, a racquet frame can rotate after striking the ball if the ball is struck near the 9'oclock position (and outside the sweet spot)... but by the time it looks like Querrey's, the ball will be out of the photo frame.

    You can think I'm wrong all you want but it's common sense to many of us looking at the picture. Do you think Querrey never mishits the ball when a photo is snapped catching it?
     
  9. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    A frame can not possibly rotate that quickly. You are talking a couple thousandths of a second... based on that pic.

    Also, you have no idea if that ball is about to be struck, is on the strings or is coming off the strings. That's another major weakness in your argument.

    Also, why do you continue calling this a 'reverse' forehand? You have no idea what the follow through will be, based on what you see in the pic. He could finish this stroke across the body (backhand side) or on the forehand side (i.e. above the head).
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2009
  10. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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  11. VaBeachTennis

    VaBeachTennis Semi-Pro

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    F. Lopez is good at net.
     
  12. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    DelPotro is also pretty good at net... and Karlovic is decent at net.
     
  13. aptennis91

    aptennis91 Rookie

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    That Sampras guy is pretty good at net also.:)

    Seriously, I think the Querry hit would be a mishit, but I also do not think teachestennis is wrong about the twisting of the racquet.
    In that picture of Querry, the ball is most likely coming toward him or has just been hit. Bud seems to be right in saying that it is way too early for the racquet to twist.
    However, Bud and teachestennis both seem to agree that the racquet does tend to twist on hits. Right? I think that was what teachestennis was after in the first place, not how quickly it twists..
     
  14. pvaudio

    pvaudio Legend

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    No one is saying teachestennis is wrong, he's 100% correct. He's just wrong in this instance. If that ball is still on or near the strings, and the face is closed, it's a mishit. That ball is moving so fast that by the time the face is pointing down, the ball will be out of the frame.
     
  15. VaBeachTennis

    VaBeachTennis Semi-Pro

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    No doubt. There are plenty of others as well.
     
  16. Fedace

    Fedace Banned

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    Yea, i always wondered what grip size Lopez uses. Does anyone know ?:confused:
     
  17. LanEvo

    LanEvo Hall of Fame

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    looks like a 1/4 or 1/8
     
  18. ronalditop

    ronalditop Hall of Fame

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    today i played with an overgrip less. At first it felt less stable and i was shanking a lot, but i took care of that by adding weight to the upper handle. Im very comfortable now, since before i had to play with a bigger gripsize than i prefer because i needed more stability, but it was hard to swing and I tend to hit late because of that. Now with a smaller gripsize i have more maneuverability and also great control thanks to the added weight.
     
  19. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Waste of time talking with you. I never even mentioned reverse FH.
     
  20. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    Excellent, then don't respond to me in the future :grin:

    As for the reverse FH, you are correct. A couple other posters have stated this is a reverse FH... I should have checked back to verify who stated it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2009
  21. hyogen

    hyogen Hall of Fame

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    the tennis instructor guy got pwned D:

    it's okay, we all make mistakes and have errors in judgment D:
     
  22. Birke

    Birke Rookie

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    Wouldn't a larger grip make the racquet more HL? Thus making it easier to whip it around as well?
     
  23. revolutionary technique

    revolutionary technique Rookie

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    you can add weight insted of an over grip
     
  24. aphex

    aphex Banned

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    teachestennis,

    i honestly hope you don't actually teach tennis with your eyesight problems...

    maybe you should consider these:

    [​IMG]
     
  25. Quadium

    Quadium Rookie

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    man i use a 4 1/2 and its hard on the wrist. After a couple of games, i'm not hitting like it did the first set. This is some very useful info. If you wanna go small, get the babolat Skin Feel Grip, it will allow you to keep using whatever size racket, but just a smaller grip. Its very good.
    Available here: http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/descpageACBAB-BSFG.html
     
  26. hobbit

    hobbit New User

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    Interesting debate...

    Can anyone prove that the racquet can or cannot rotate to that degree in such a short time span?
     
  27. user92626

    user92626 Legend

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    I think that Querry hit was a mishit, and it's possible to have the racket twist at that instance. People usually assume that the pro's ball must always be really fast and in this case the ball would be out of frame already. What if it was a slow shot coming to Querry? It's possible that the ball hit querry's racket off center and Querry's mis-swing didn't have enough force to move the ball anywhere.
     
  28. revolutionary technique

    revolutionary technique Rookie

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    I tried both grips a 4 3/8 and a 41/2 with an overgrip. Out of the two I love the 1/2 with an over grip because

    -I feel that I am in more control of the racket.
    -It feels better/it feels right while the smaller grip feels unusual to me.
    -The bigger grip transmitt less vibration to the hand/more comfortable.
    -the bigger grip is alot sturdier

    I agree the smaller grip allows for more wrist action however it feels so horrible to me.
     
  29. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Got Rafa on tivo hitting a ball like Querry's for a winner tonite. Yes, it got a touch of frame at the bottom like tennisteacher described.
     
  30. (K)evin

    (K)evin Rookie

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    I was reading this thread from the beginning and idk if you found a video but I did
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Li_gYqiJsO0

    itsa federer is super slow mo and later in the video is an angle of his forehand from behind and you can see exactly what you were talking about
     
  31. teachestennis

    teachestennis Rookie

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    It's at 2:06. And you are correct, exactly like the Querrey pic I posted early on that started this debate. Thank you for proving my point. I guess I can throw the glasses Aphex gave to me away. Actually, I wouldn't have posted it if I didn't want to make an important point about smaller grips and looser grips. This was an interesting thread.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2009
  32. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

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    Teaches Tennis is dead on. The guy may be long winded sometimes, but he puts insanely good advice in here.

    You can clearly see Fed hit across the ball and his racquet face closes.

    I am finally getting my 2 handed backhand to a powerful and accurate shot because I am hitting across the ball like he said to. I drop the stick to my calf before coming up, making contact and hitting across the ball. If you watch the Agassi vids that have been posted today, his racquet face looks a little odd on his backhands right after contact too. But I finally really understand why it does.

    The Fed video was awesome btw.
     
  33. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    at 1:12 on that vid is a nice example of how the racket face moves slowly at first, then is accelerated into the ball....
    opposed to all the talk of racket speed, which gives the idea that the racket needs to be up to high speed earlier. MTM covers this idea.
     
  34. bhupaes

    bhupaes Professional

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    Fascinating thread... I've learned a lot from the points made by teachestennis, and the videos are awesome. Thanks!
     
  35. FedererClone

    FedererClone Semi-Pro

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    As a professional photographer, and taking into consideration the fact that the ball stays on the strings for five one thousandths of a second, the racquet can be in a completely different position in any picture we are looking at here.

    Also, after impact, the frame will continuing to roll in any direction depending on where the ball strikes the strings.

    The pros do not try to hit the ball anywhere except the sweet spot of their frame, which as we all know is incredibly difficult to do all the time, hence the variation of ball speed and ball placement during play.

    These photographs show nothing whatsoever - the tennis ball in the frame could be about to hit the racquet or may have already left the stringbed. It's real tough to get a picture with the tennis ball in the frame, even with a powerdrive and top notch equipment...
     
  36. ManuGinobili

    ManuGinobili Hall of Fame

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    You should try a smaller grip only if you have strong fingers and wrist muscle.
    When I hit with a smaller grip, the first impression is that your hand just never feels like it is properly gripping the racket . My wrist is pretty strong but my fingers (hence gripping power?) are not, so when I hit a semi-western forehand and try to twist the racket at point of contact, sometimes the racket actually spins in my hand and all of the force that was supposed to go into the ball would be wasted. The result is an overly spinning ball that has little pace. I could blame it on the awful overgrip but anyway, I like the way the regular grip fits into the hand.
     
  37. bertrevert

    bertrevert Hall of Fame

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    I'm prepared to give it a go but it could be an expensive experiment. It's not like you can demo grip sizes. A demo is a demo of the racquet and usually all you can get hold of is the 4 1/4 smallest grip and no other. Shops in Aus here do not loan out multiples of the same frame in diff grip sizes. I would be surprised if this happens anywhere really.

    Great thread!!
     
  38. tennisboy777

    tennisboy777 New User

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    i agree with Bud... unless querry is freaking on TOP of the net which it looks like he isn't.... its pretty much impossible to have the ball travel over the net without opening the face more than he has... his raquet face is parallel to the ground which leaves the ball no space to travel up.. yes you roll ure wrist over the ball to create more topspin but it seems as though he hasn't made contact with the ball yet or he the ball is in his stringbed so to me it seems pretty much impossible
     
  39. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    The consensus here is about 90% that it was clearly a mishit :)
     
  40. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    The video is over and the screen is completely black from 1:59 to 2:06

    Try again?
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2009
  41. 35ft6

    35ft6 Legend

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    I think the smaller grips allows your hand to apply pressure to different parts of the grip during different phases of the swing in order to maximize head snap. I don't have a whippy forehand at all, but even when I'm hitting, during the take back I feel like I'm using the fingers higher up to hold the racket as the butt of the racket shifts around a bit, then it shifts to my palm area, more pressure at the bottom of the grip, then during contact and the follow through, the pressure shifts back to the top. With a bigger grip, you're pretty forced to apply pressure more uniformly and your hand can't shift the pressure points.

    Think of drummers twirling their sticks. They can't do that with a super thick piece of wood. Back in the day of wooden rackets, the take back and forward swing was very simple and straight forward, the wrist remained more locked throughout, etc. There's a lot going on with today's forehands, the racket head constantly changing directions and angles before, during, and after contact. A smaller grip more easily allows that kind of range of movement.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2009
  42. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    Here's the shot you're referring to:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Again, note the angle/face of the racquet at contact (top pic).

    A split second later (note the time), the ball is not even close to the strings when the racquet face is completely closed during the follow-through.

    - - - - - - - - - -

    That top pic is not even close to this:

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2009
  43. teachestennis

    teachestennis Rookie

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    Bud, you can stop the Fed video with the ball appearing as if it was almost touching the racket still at the beginning of 29 seconds. Your pic is further along. You pic is stopped not at the optimal point of contact showing the twist. Querry has already hit the ball in the pic I posted. The angle the pic was taken from, and the severity of the twist over the top of the ball give us this appearance. I posted it for a reason and this was a great thread that a lot of young players learned from because it made them take a look at how loose the grips can really be and how to attack the ball with a closed racket face and trust the racket edge more.
     
  44. teachestennis

    teachestennis Rookie

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    Bud, this should make it clear. This is Jurgen Melzer. He has already hit the ball.

    [​IMG]
     
  45. tennisboy777

    tennisboy777 New User

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    but the ball is not even close to his strings like the ball that querry si hitting is
     
  46. teachestennis

    teachestennis Rookie

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    it's a picture taken by a human photographer, he can't quite catch it every time under the strings with the naked eye but you can see it is very close to it and he's already hit the ball, but it makes the point of this thead that the racket twists over the top of the ball because of the smaller and loose grips as well as the pros hit up on the ball more than they do through the target line; your power in tennis is hitting UP and across the ball
     
  47. tennisboy777

    tennisboy777 New User

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    doesn't the racket twist over the ball AFTER the ball has left the strings? the ball would not be close to the racket, but the the one with querry his racket is on TOP of the ball and the ball is still close to his racket... u can't twist your racket that fast so that the ball is still under ure racket when your racket is parallel to the ground
     
  48. teachestennis

    teachestennis Rookie

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    yes it does twist over the ball after the ball has left the strings. YOu have to read the entire debate from when I posted it, but you can twist it that fast, many pros accelerate the head that fast and there is a bit of an optical illusion on Querry's pick, it is not touching the strings, but the angle makes it appear as such. Querry just got jammed and likely pulled straight up and over the ball.
     
  49. tennisboy777

    tennisboy777 New User

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    how is querry's shot an optical illusion you can clearly see that the ball is almost if not touching his racket.. and im pretty sure that even pros can't twist their racket that fast for the racket to be that closed and the ball to be that close to the racket
     
  50. 10ACE

    10ACE Professional

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    Beacuse, in Querry's picture the tennis ball has already sprung back to full form, not compressed against the string bed.
     

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