Silent Ban Discussion

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by MasturB, Dec 28, 2012.

  1. MasturB

    MasturB Hall of Fame

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    Is it real? Lots of conspiracy and speculation about this issue. Soderling, Nadal, etc.

    It'd hit tennis harder than other sports because of the fact that tennis is an individual sport. A star player on a team gets suspended, the team still plays. A star tennis player gets suspended, it's like the entire brand/team gets suspended. Nadal is arguably the 2nd or 3rd most recognizable modern day tennis figure in the world male or female and if he did get a silent ban and it went public, the ramifications and negative effect for tennis would be huge. It wouldn't kill interest in the sport like it has for cycling, because Fed would still be considered pure, but man, Nadal getting caught would be major considering he holds every major clay record there is, and is in the upper tier of men's tennis records as well.
     
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  2. joeri888

    joeri888 G.O.A.T.

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    Don't think it's real, but I don't blame people for starting to believe it.
     
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  3. decades

    decades Guest

    doesn't make sense. public punishment is used as a deterrent. how would this send a message to other players if the ban was silent? tennis is a "confidence game" at the highest levels. there is so little difference, it's all about confidence. and when you lose it, you really lose it.
     
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  4. Flash O'Groove

    Flash O'Groove Hall of Fame

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    Better not to send a message than to acknowledge that the second biggest star is a doper, no? MasturB is right, it would be terrible for the tennis business, and I bet what is good or bad for the tennis business comes before any other consideration.
     
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  5. jjaded

    jjaded New User

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    The "silent ban" is very real, that is the policy when an adverse urine or blood test comes back. The only question is whether certain high profile players who took lots of time off for injuries were actually barred playing during the investigation.
     
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  6. MichaelChang

    MichaelChang Hall of Fame

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    They can cover for Agassi's drug usage, then they can cover again for anybody at that calibre. The whole drama of Nadal is getting more and more suspicious. But without solid proof, all is just speculations, not facts.
     
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  7. Flash O'Groove

    Flash O'Groove Hall of Fame

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    Yep. And we do hope those speculations are wrong, because I would be more than disappointed if they happened to be true...The same is true for Soderling, altough in his case, a public ban wouldn't be as a terrible blow to tennis than in Nadal's case.
     
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  8. jonnythan

    jonnythan Professional

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    Revealing that top tennis players juice would be very, very, very bad for the sport as a whole. The ATP has a lot of incentive to cover up positive tests but punish players at the same time. Telling a top-4 player, who is very likely to make a semifinal and win a half million dollars, that he's barred from a tournament is pretty serious punishment. It's not as bad for the player as a public punishment, but a public punishment would hurt the ATP a great deal.

    But is it done? No idea. None of us know, and this is all just speculation.
     
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  9. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Every week that goes by, people are more and more in belief of the silent ban.
     
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  10. MasturB

    MasturB Hall of Fame

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    Makes plenty of sense. While tennis is a tour comprised of hundreds of independent contractors, they're all connected and intertwined.

    You can make a public announcement that someone like Wayne Odesnik is doping, because he's not going to be selling many tickets and it shows the public that hey it's a journeyman guy trying to make it to the top which puts over how hard it is to be a top player. It also shows that the tour is trying to "enforce" something whatever that may be.

    However if Nadal gets publicly suspended, it would send shockwaves out. Casual sports fans would automatically cast other top players as dopers. Oh how does Ferrer run so much at his age? How does Haas continue to play at a high level so old and injured? How can these guys serve 140mph for 5 sets? Questions started appearing even with baseless accusations. Not the type of negative pub tennis needs.

    Again, thankfully if it did happen, the sport would still have Federer to lean on as a "pure" and "clean" player. But the sport's #2 honcho getting caught would be very bad for business (while upgrading Federer's brand even higher).
     
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  11. AtomicForehand

    AtomicForehand Hall of Fame

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    No they aren't.
     
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  12. qindarka

    qindarka Rookie

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    If Nadal is indeed doping, I wouldn't be too sure that Federer is definitely clean as well.
     
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  13. jonnythan

    jonnythan Professional

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    The presumption is that Nadal is currently under a silent ban and Federer isn't.
     
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  14. wy2sl0

    wy2sl0 Hall of Fame

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    Let's be serious. As said before, Agassi got away with it (from the public before his book) why can't Nadal?

    It may not even be that he got caught, rather he actually injured his knee and used PED's to heal it, and still can't pass the tests.
     
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  15. jjaded

    jjaded New User

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    The most suspicious part of Nadal's time off is that he had just been tested when he was defeated by Lukas Rosol, a match he thought he would win and if Nadal had won he, would not have been tested after.

    Also, Nadal now claims that he was getting injections in his knee before the match. I presume cortisone (a steriod), which would explain a positive test for steroid use. If he was on a silent ban I think it absurd that his cover story for why he couldn't play is the same cover story for a false positive test.

    Lets not also forget Nadal's connection to the infamous doping doctor who supplied many Spanish cyclists. I certainly think there is good reason to suspect Nadal was on a silent ban, but we may never know (or maybe in a decade he'll write a memoir about it.).
     
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  16. MasturB

    MasturB Hall of Fame

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    Which brings back my point about the ATP not wanting to publicly suspend a top player like Nadal, because it would automatically cast a shadow of doubt amongst other top players as well regardless if there was no evidence or not.

    It would definitely hurt the sport. Thats why they dont' hesitate to ban someone like Odesnik because he's just pennies on the dollar.
     
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  17. joeri888

    joeri888 G.O.A.T.

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    Agreed. Federer always stated how he found out what was needed to be a top player in 2000 when he started working with his italian fitness coach. It is said that he found out he needed to work on fitness more etc. etc., but who knows. Maybe he isn't Godly either and takes stuff you shouldnt be using. However, I still don't think it's likely, and even if it is so, the strokes they produce are not caused by doping. That's talent and technique.
     
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  18. Flash O'Groove

    Flash O'Groove Hall of Fame

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    Me too. If Nadal can evade anti-doping test for so many years, then Fed can too.
     
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  19. wy2sl0

    wy2sl0 Hall of Fame

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    Anyone can, I agree. The fact is that Nadal was massive at 18 years old and Fed developed like a normal person. Also, steroid use is linked with tendon issues, so just do the math.
     
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  20. qindarka

    qindarka Rookie

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    Can't be too sure when it comes to pro sports. The fear is that all the top players are doping, which I don't think is terribly far-fetched.
     
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  21. MasturB

    MasturB Hall of Fame

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    lol well Fed was what, 18-19 in 2000?

    I think him maturing as a player and practicing helps. His technique on his groundies are much more improved when watching hte film. It just kind of shows how much he developed and matured.
     
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  22. joeri888

    joeri888 G.O.A.T.

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    Sure he improved. But there's no way we can be sure some illegal products didnt help him do it
     
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  23. wy2sl0

    wy2sl0 Hall of Fame

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    Me neither, however there are tons of scientific studies that show tendonitis/tendon damage with steroid use.

    One: http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=5297847
    Two: http://caseconnector.jbjs.org/data/Journals/JBJS/617/1345.pdf
    Three: http://europepmc.org/abstract/MED/1997802/reload=1;jsessionid=ALb9EChWPZRmdH816IZt.16

    Connect the dots. Federer is in good shape but still shows fatigue over 5 sets, and muscle weakness (you can see A0 09 5th Set example).

    Nadal Djoko Ao12? Are you joking me?
     
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  24. MasturB

    MasturB Hall of Fame

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    I'm not saying Federer is clean at all. He is my favourite player, but he's been fortunate not to have the same injury problems as Nadal.

    A lot of it has to do with his game and technique is just less taxing and his body, other could be he has more natural talent.

    Nadal's game would probably induce him to use some drugs to recover. IDK.,
     
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  25. qindarka

    qindarka Rookie

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    This isn't concrete proof or anything. Might be worth thinking about, that's all for now.
     
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  26. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Certainly not the opposite.
     
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  27. wy2sl0

    wy2sl0 Hall of Fame

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    I agree I am not saying he is doping for sure, however it isn't as "out-there" as some of the nut huggers would like to believe.
     
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  28. DropShotArtist

    DropShotArtist Banned

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    Come on, every week it's something else. Knee better now so a flu virus is conjured up. Next it'll be girlfriend problems. If you don't realize it's a silent ban by now, then you are either 1) extremely naive, 2) Nadal fan girl.
     
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  29. qindarka

    qindarka Rookie

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    Or one who believes in the importance of actual proof.

    This is all speculation at the moment. There might be enough info that this issue is worth discussing but certainly nowhere near enough evidence to make serious accusations.
     
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  30. dominikk1985

    dominikk1985 Legend

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    If the ATP really did a silent ban it would lose all credebility to me.

    if you are serious about anti doping you are not covering up and agree to a silent ban but you make it public. if that ever came out tennis and the ATP would be dead, that would be a scandal like in cycling.

    a tested player needs to be banned publically so that he also loses all the sponsor money as well as his credibility. If the ATP really did that I could not consider tennis a serious sport anymore. that would be like WWE.

    I really hope that is not true that would be a huge hit for international anti doping.
    however in these days nothing really surprises me. The uci also covered up armstrong and I'm sure the NBA is covering up those rediculous video game kind of guys.

    but right now I have the hope that tennis as a serious olympic sport is not doing such stuff.
     
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  31. DropShotArtist

    DropShotArtist Banned

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    Disagree. If there is actual hard evidence like with Lance, then there's no more point for discussion. It's obvious. Discussion is only useful before actual evidence. Many people said Lance was completely innocent before all the evidence came rolling out. Sometimes you need to put 2 and 2 together without a calculator.
     
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  32. qindarka

    qindarka Rookie

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    Yes, I am saying that this issue might be worth discussing. But what you were doing wasn't discussion, it was an accusation.
     
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  33. DropShotArtist

    DropShotArtist Banned

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    Discussions include ideas/accusations/theories. Semantics.
     
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  34. West Coast Ace

    West Coast Ace G.O.A.T.

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    Agree. Throw all the Wayne Odesnik's as you can under the bus to show you're 'serious' about keeping the game clean.

    But today's news doesn't fit - did the ATP/ITF just decide 6 months wasn't enough and threw in 1 more? Did they test him and he failed again? If so he'd get more than 1 more month. My friends who hate Nadal (I've just lost a lot of respect for him) don't believe in the ban; they think his 'chemists' have come up with some new concoction and they're just worried it might not be out of his system or might be detectable; so they told him to take 1 more month off to be sure.

    Will probably never know. His camp is pretty tight; I don't expect someone to come forward 5 or 10 yrs after he's retired and say 'oh, yeah - he was using everything imaginable.'
     
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  35. fedfan46

    fedfan46 Rookie

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    what reason would there be to silently ban Soderling?
     
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  36. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    I'm leaning toward that suspicion, not just for tennis but for pro sport in general. It's all a matter of not getting caught. And it doesn't mean the pro athletes don't have the talent. But let's face it, in pro sport, they have to bring their best effort on a consistent basis, push their limits nonstop (more and more so) and recover ASAP when there is a problem. Tough ask.
    This being said, in this ultra technological day and age, it's hard to believe a silent ban could be pulled off. Somewhere, some time, someone would manage to leak something. It seems inevitable.
     
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  37. DropShotArtist

    DropShotArtist Banned

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    Same reason as Nadal. Banned substance. Sod does hit one of the hardest balls on tour.
     
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  38. fedfan46

    fedfan46 Rookie

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    Seriously? It can be spun that Nadal is doping (always hurt, abnormally large muscles, etc) but what visible body changes has Federer undergone that would lead anyone to believe he was doping? His game is no where near has powerful as it was. His serve is 15 mph under the rest of the top 10, etc. Federer is just not doping. He wouldn't do that to himself or his image.
     
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  39. wy2sl0

    wy2sl0 Hall of Fame

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    USO 2010 is just another example of this BTW. 135 mph for one tournament he just happened to never win before? Maybe it was a little premature to say this before, however it is not looking good now.
     
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  40. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    None, excellent point. (It's not like Sod is a huge star of the game and they didn't attempt "coverup" for Gasquet who is rather more famous than Sod.) People just enjoy speculating. It's human nature I guess.
     
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  41. Richie Rich

    Richie Rich Legend

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    if there is doping in other sports i'm pretty sure there is doping in tennis. i guess only the players and testers really know. maybe tennis is where cycling was 10 years ago?
     
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  42. dominikk1985

    dominikk1985 Legend

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    the question is not why a ban but why a SILENT ban. a silent ban is a violation against the anti doping code as the outing is and important part of the punishment and transparency is very important in anti doping.

    the reason for doing it silent would be obvious: the don't want to hurt their priced superstars and lose sponsor money. if the kids stop idolizing their player and don't buy rafa shirts anymore or don't watch TV tennis loses money (that is also why those no name argentinian players were openly banned).

    overall this would be a huge scandal if it came out that the ATP protects their stars by using silent bans. doping violaters must be outed publically.
     
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  43. DropShotArtist

    DropShotArtist Banned

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    Yes, the reasons for a silent ban are pretty obvious, that's why I didn't mention that.
     
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  44. Fearsome Forehand

    Fearsome Forehand Professional

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    This is one of several WTF? Nadal threads. I can understand why people are skeptical. The AO Withdrawal weeks before the tourney, ostensibly due to a flu or similar virus, is strange to say the least.

    I am not a believer in the silent ban theory. If RN and the ATP had agreed to such a ban that would last x months, RN would have said some time ago that he was rehabbing his knee until further notice. He would not enter then cancel on tournaments as that only draws attention and furthers suspicion that something strange is going on. For that matter, he could simply continue to blame his knees and not even bring up a virus. He is probably sick enough that it gave him an excuse to withdraw. Otherwise, why not just blame his knees again?

    He will lose a lot of points by not playing the AO, no? He may blow off everything until the clay court season which he will probably rule again, bad knees, or not.

    I think RN is enjoying his vacation at home and can simply afford to take more time off. The more time he takes off, the better for his knees. Traveling to Oz is a whole big thing. Maybe he is burnt out on the travel and prefers to wait until the clay season kicks in on the Continent to return to the tour full time? That happens in April? If he blows off Palm Springs and Miami then we know something weird is going on. I doubt he will do that though unless he had lost interest in being an elite tennis player on all surfaces. Maybe this is Borg II?

    The bottom line is that people can speculate endlessly, but no one really knows what is going on except RN and his crew.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2012
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  45. wy2sl0

    wy2sl0 Hall of Fame

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    Let's not get started on the Soderling bandwagon. Mononucleosis is a serious illness that could end anyone's career. Don't compare the 2.
     
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  46. billnepill

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    If the federation is so corrupt to be silent about positive results why don't they just allow him to play as if nothing happened. It wouldn't arise suspicion and they and also the sponsors wouldn't lose revenue.
     
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  47. DropShotArtist

    DropShotArtist Banned

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    Because it would be unfair to other players having to play a guy doped up on steroids.
     
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  48. billnepill

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    Hmm that's assuming anyone cares about that. Federations have known about abuse and it didn't bother them if it brings the cash and if it is a secret well kept.
    If they can keep the secret for the silent ban, they certainly can make the other stuff disappear.

    I am sure certain "never caught" players have doped and still dope. It's just the silent ban concept is built on too idealistic concepts for today's harsh realities. The whole testing thing is devised to bring credibility to the sport, not to actually catch superstars doping.

    The whole thing reminds me of an exam room where the teacher checks for cheating once or twice during the whole exam and would close an eye if the A graders cheat because he will receive a good paycheck if people perform well
     
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  49. DropShotArtist

    DropShotArtist Banned

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    I agree there are some holes. But how about Agassi's meth use in the 90s, no one knew about that.
     
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  50. jonnythan

    jonnythan Professional

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    Because they don't want doped players on tour?
     
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