Silent Ban Discussion

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by MasturB, Dec 28, 2012.

  1. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    I think all stars in the game are doping personally but Novak was not consistently running out of gas, his 5 set record prior to 2011 was excellent and he was able to hang with Nadal in some very tought matches like 2009 Madrid SF.

    Heck in 2009 for example he played 97 matches compared to "only" 76 in 2011 and still wasn't drained at the end of the year like he was in 2011 as he won 2009 Paris, it makes no sense claiming his endurance/fitness/stamina/whatever was on such a different level in 2011 compared to previous years, his much improved serve in 2011 compared to 2009 and 2010 was far more crucial.

    Yeah, he had a habit of retiring from matches, which didn't change in 2011 as he retired against Delpo in DC and Murray in Cincy final.
     
  2. Tony48

    Tony48 Legend

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    So....compared to two other people, he's mediocre. Umm.....how about we compare Djokovic to the rest of tennis, and not just Federer and Nadal. In this case, Djokovic himself is one of the best.

    There was no "boom". It was not "out of no where". He 1) already had a slam, 2) was a contender for all four slams every single year since the 2007 French Open, 3) had already established that he could take care of both Nadal AND Federer, and 4) shown that he could beat any single person on tour.

    Perhaps your expectations of Djokovic weren't quite accurate considering what he had already achieved.

    And as for "running through every player with ease", perhaps you missed the French Open and his near loss at the U.S. Open....and all the matches where he went 3 sets at Masters.

    Top 100? LOL. Way to short change him. He finished 38th in 2009 and 49th in 2010. "Top 100" implies that he finished near 100....when that is not true at all.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2012
  3. corners

    corners Legend

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    Controlled by whom?
     
  4. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

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    So what you are saying basically is that Djokovic has been doping the whole time he has been on tour then? ;)
     
  5. Vrad

    Vrad Semi-Pro

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    I don't buy this. Even Federer thought said that the only reason Djokovic wasn't winning a lot was because he was mentally weak.

    Djokovic's talent and physicality was never suspect. The mental aspect of his game was.
     
  6. wy2sl0

    wy2sl0 Hall of Fame

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    Agree to disagree heavily.

    Djokovic's fitness was very suspect before 2011. His level of play was lower, and some may argue considerably. A switch was flicked, and he barely lost matches for 6 months, in that period completely demolishing one of the best players of all time who had an insanely good H2H against him (Nadal).
     
  7. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Apparently some of the sports press did know about Tiger's philandering ways but chose not to publish both because of his reputation and because Tiger bestowed access to media that might have proved troublesome otherwise.

    But this is great media managment by the rich and the powerful, which is not that hard for them to do usually.

    The simple truth about tennis is that they scarcely have enough money to do any serious testing and it will stay that way until a scandal forces them to invest money.
     
  8. Tony48

    Tony48 Legend

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    1) Djokovic lead the H2H against Nadal on HC BEFORE 2011
    2) Djokovic proved that he could beat Nadal on clay (Madrid 2009)
    3) Djokovic proved he could beat Nadal on grass (Queens 2008 )

    Your efforts to make this completely black and white is extremely disingenuous.
     
  9. Clarky21

    Clarky21 Banned

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    And what helped the mental aspect of his game that saw him not lose a match for 6 months, win 3 slams in one year, and have the best year of his career so far? Davis Cup? He didn't even play that well in the DC final in 2010, and did not clinch the win for Serbia. Just exactly what caused him to fix all of his mental weakness overnight at the very end of 2010?

    Most people without blinders on know exactly what it was/is that saw Eeyore go from a career #3 weakling to unbeatable in the blink of an eye. And it wasn't confidence from DC or some bs gluten-free diet.
     
  10. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

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    That is correct. These journalists know what is going on with these sports stars and celebs but they make deals such as gaining access to the celeb but not publishing anything iffy. The media is totally controlled by big business, i.e. in sports the big sports agencies for example. All of these articles that you read in trash mags like People and US magazine are all stories spun by the PR agents themselves for the most part. They write what they want the public to believe about these celebs and put out stories at a time when a big movie or tv series needs to be promoted.
     
  11. wy2sl0

    wy2sl0 Hall of Fame

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    I don't see it that way.

    1)Djokovic is, and always will be, a better HC player than Nadal.
    2)Federer has bageled Nadal on clay before. Federer is better than Djokovic. I don't see Federer claiming 7 straight wins in Finals over Nadal.
    3)Queens is a warmup tournament. Even at that, it is a 3 week period of the year, and Nadal went on to win Wimbledon while Djoker didn't make the finals.
     
  12. Clarky21

    Clarky21 Banned

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    Eeyore proved he could beat Nadal on grass in a match he lost in straight sets? Sure whatever you want to believe.

    And that was the only grasscourt final he had ever made up until Wimby last year. he had never won a grasscourt tournament up until his miracle run in 2011.
     
  13. Towser83

    Towser83 Legend

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    Thanks for making some of the points I've had to again and again and again..

    I mean most of Djokovic's retirements have come early in a match, like before the 3rd set has started. People can look this up but I will let you know out of 11 retirements 7 have come before the 3rd set and only one in a 4th set, NONE in a 5th set at all. So what, before 2011 he couldn't play more than 1 set? They can also look up the back to back 3, 4 and 5 hour matches he played at Wimbledon 2007 or the madrid semi with Nadal in 2009 that lasted 4 hours, or like you said the 97 matches he played in 2009.

    In 2011 he didn't need to have any great physical ability because he won pretty comfortably. I don't get how using PED's would help him mentally? Which is the obvious difference. In 2009 he was WAY more physically strong. He didn't break down at the end of the season or skip any events.

    I wouldn't be shocked if any player was doping, but people using 2011 as the proof he is are blind and have not followed Djokovic's career at all. They also haven't followed the retirements and are under the illusion he retires because he can't last a 5th set (when he's never retired in a 5th set and before 2011 had a 12-3 5 set record, which is pretty good I think. The truth is he's prone to retirements in certain matches, but they are random and not linked with playing a long match. A fact which was seen again in 2011 in Cini and DC. The thing about "he can't play in heat" comes from one match vs Roddick in 2009 at the AO - Djokovic had won the AO and Miami by this time :lol:

    There's only one single time in 2011 that Djokovic needed a big physical performance, that is the semis/final of Rome. But in 2007 he played matches back to back at wimbledon that lasted 3, 4 and 5 hours and he did at least 2 of those matches with no days off inbetween, so the Rome situation was childs play by comparison.
     
  14. The_Order

    The_Order Legend

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    Thanks for revealing that you have never played. Another clueless poster lol.

    Nobody hits with anywhere near the amount of topspin Nadal does and if you think all the other players can time the ball as well and as consistently as Nadal you're sadly mistaken.

    And then let's not forget Novak played 5 hours semi and then 6 hours final at AO but nobody says anything about him doping? LOL Novak, Rafa, Murray, Fed etc. they are supreme athletes.

    I played 5 hours one day and 4 hours the next day in 30+ degree heat (2 matches each day) on plexicushion and I started to tire in the latter stages of the second match on the second day. So if I can do it there is no reason why these supreme athletes couldn't do it either.
     
  15. Nostradamus

    Nostradamus G.O.A.T.

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    Agree, and Nadal's knees were walking time bomb, anyway. Remember, 3-4 years ago, doctors warned him to take 6 month or year off and he didn't listen.
     
  16. Tony48

    Tony48 Legend

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    That is some extremely faulty logic. Just because Federer can't do it, Djokovic can't, either? So I guess that just because Federer can't maintain a positive H2H against Murray, then it surely it would be impossible for Djokovic to do it.

    Oh, wait....

    Let's even toss in a more inferior player, like Davydenko. Just because Federer can't beat Nadal 4 times in a row, then surely Davydenko can't, either.....right???

    Oh, wait (again).....

    Federer vs Nadal and Djokovic vs. Nadal are two TOTALLY different match-ups. The world doesn't revolve around Federer's results; Federer's H2H against a player doesn't determine else's H2H against the same player.

    The point was that Novak could stay with Nadal on grass. That match could have easily gone either way.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2012
  17. albatros_forehand

    albatros_forehand Rookie

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    Lol, needed what only once in 2011??
     
  18. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, I think Nadal is serving a drug suspension. I suspect he learned of it before his loss to Rossol that he either tanked or was distracted and lost.

    I think he doped to find a way to beat Djokovic.

    I believe Serena also served a secret one-year suspension with her bizarre foot injury and pulmonary embolism. I think whatever drugs she uses also causes her to aggressive enough to threaten chair umps and linespeople.

    The list of players who would never, ever be publicly disciplined for doping is short, but I think it is Nadal, Fed, Djoker, Serena and Maria. Maybe Venus, Clijsters.

    I also wonder about Justine's aborted comeback. She comes out trying to play a power game, gets back to the top quickly and has a career-ending elbow injury out of the blue when she hadn't had that sort of problem in the past. And then she just up and quits?

    Things that make ya go "Hmmmm."
     
  19. Clarky21

    Clarky21 Banned

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    You? Couldn't be. :lol:

    And I think Eeyore doped to find a way to beat Nadal and everyone else he steamrolled for the past 2 years. He also doped to go on a 6 month win streak and win 3 slams out of nowhere.

    Fed included?
     
  20. MethodTennis

    MethodTennis Hall of Fame

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    There would be none. It would be a massive plus for the ATP interms of the 'war' against PEDs to ban Soderling, the guy isnt a massive star but is high profile enough having been the only player to beat rafa at roland garros to make it look like they are extreamely serious about the issue within their sport, would have large media ripples than a wayne odesnik but just as little shockwave in viewing numbers and sponsors. Interms of failed tests soderling is clean, just thinking logicly.

    Although I dont believe for a minute Rafa is, I can see why someone may believe he is serving a silent ban, it would shatter the sport for a while. Who would take his titles in particular the 2005 french, Davy? Fed? left without a winner? I mean Davydenko is probably still very bitter about not getting to play that final, he had every chance of victory.

    Buy hey thts just my small insight
     
  21. Clarky21

    Clarky21 Banned

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    Who will take all of Eeyore's titles? Fed's titles? Murray's titles? No one, because they are ALL doping.

    Davy was not beating Nadal on clay in that final. He is a slam choker. Always has been and always will be.
     
  22. MethodTennis

    MethodTennis Hall of Fame

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    That would be beside the point if Nadal was caught as a drugs cheat though, the question is would he have beat fed on clay in that final. He became a slam choker after that match, at that point had he actually been in a final... won a final.. who knows.

    Its all hypothetical really, its like asking what if the rain didnt come on with roddick a break up at Wimbledon 2004, would we we looking at a different tennis landscape entirely, that match destroyed roddicks confidence and it was the one that kickstarted federers ascent to greatness or atleast increased the verocity at which he was traveling along the road to greatness
     
  23. librarysteg

    librarysteg Hall of Fame

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    If there's ever a big blow-up in tennis would they strip the players of their titles? Would they give them to the runner-up? Or would there just be an * by their name in the record books and they'd refuse to admit them to the Hall of Fame? I have no idea how anything like that would work in tennis.
     
  24. MethodTennis

    MethodTennis Hall of Fame

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    Id hope that they strip the titles that were achieved post positive test or even pre positive test just because of the suspicion and the likelyhood they went under the radar at that time.

    What would happen, I do not kno. I think the positive test pretty much instaend any chance of hall of fame status, but I dont think anyone really cares about that tbh. Giving the title to the runner up is a strange on because there will be events where the person destroys the finalist in straights and requires 3/5 to win the semi. I would like to see the titles left without a victor, as you cant tell what could have or would have been so far from the event. Its not like week 1. guy wins tournament, week 2. guy gets postitive test, so you could in theory just replay the event but with may events potentially having been won years ago or even just months ago to speculate on who would have won and award titles based on who madeit the furthest would be distictly unfair
     
  25. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Heh, heh.

    Well, it is one thing to simply think a player is doping. I wonder about that a lot with various players at various times.

    Once players start to have lengthy absences with stories that do not make sense (slicing foot on glass while wearing sandals yet playing an exhibition; mysterious knee injuries that don't require surgery coupled with a late-breaking virus), I start to think cover-up.

    Look at cycling. I think the Armstrong scandal will really hurt the sport long term. I think tennis would quickly lose its fan base if a top player was caught doping ever few months. For the good of the sport (which needs its marquee players), they've decided to go with the silent ban.

    What I can't figure out is why none of this has leaked. Then again, if Armstrong could continue his massive cover-up for as long as he did, I guess that means folks in the know don't speak up because they have too much to lose.
     
  26. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    If Nadal was convicted of using PED they should strip away all of his FO titles just like it had happened to Armstrong in cycling.

    Ben Johnson was caught for doping in 1988 Olympics and was forced to return the gold medal. The medal was awarded to Carl Lewis, who came in 2nd place behind Ben in a 100 meters dash. I think it's fair to award all the FO titles to Federer(in case Nadal gets caught).
     
  27. dafinch

    dafinch Banned

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    Though we disagree about Rafa's doping, the first part I am totally in agreement with. The notion that if one player is doping, they ALL are is so stupid as to be laughable-especially presenting it like it's practically a fact.
     
  28. Rippy

    Rippy Hall of Fame

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    Giving them to the runnerup doesn't really make sense though, because one of the players beaten in an earlier round could have won the title.
     
  29. The_Order

    The_Order Legend

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    Why would they announce that Puerta was doping but not some 19 year old? Rafa was a rising young player but wasn't the player he is today so why would they keep it under the rug?

    He wasn't doping and he is just too good for Federer at RG and pretty much any major since 2007.
     
  30. single_handed_champion

    single_handed_champion Professional

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    LOL, why just the FO titles? Nadal has taken away more than just FOs from Federer. If Federer is caught for doping, imagine how many new Slam winners we would have. If Djokovic is, it would only reinforce the Fedal domination etc etc.
     
  31. wy2sl0

    wy2sl0 Hall of Fame

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    The saddest part is that Nadal's style uses all physical aspects of the game to his advantage, and is a big reason he is as good as he is. Federer would still have 6+ slams even if he was in "good" shape and "decent" cardio.

    Having said that, if Nadal did actually get caught, it is game over for him.
     
  32. TheFifthSet

    TheFifthSet Hall of Fame

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    I think some (not all) people, though they won't admit it, want Nadal to get caught doping because it would amplify Federers place in the game and it would diminish his losing record against Rafa. To me that speaks volumes. Personally I want Federer to go down as the greater player historically because I prefer him, and I can't say for sure whether Nadal is doping although I don't think he is. However, I want it to happen the right way, and if it was revealed he was doping all along, it would break my heart and it would absolutely suck for the game. No doubt it would cheapen the last 8 years of mens tennis.
     
  33. Mike Sams

    Mike Sams Legend

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    You still have to ask yourself why Nadal had such great cardio and endurance compared to every other player? If he was taking peds then he should be banned. Obviously we hope he wasn't because it would destroy the sport and its credibility but fair is fair. If he had an advantage that allowed him to win all those matches he won and all those titles then he should be banned from the sport and stripped of all his titles. None of it has anything to do with Federer at all. It's about fairness in the sport.

    And everybody knows Nadal was NOT a workhorse. He trained hard but he didn't train any harder than many other players out there. He ate junk food and liked to fool around with his friends playing video games. He wasn't a gym rat so where did he get all that incredible endurance and cardio? There is a possibility that he was taking something. Notice I said possibility.
     
  34. mattennis

    mattennis Hall of Fame

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    The silent ban theory is the most stupid thing I have ever read in these forums (and that is something, given that 80% of the people who write here know nothing about tennis).

    By the way, I don't like Nadal's tennis style.
     
  35. lvuong

    lvuong Rookie

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    Doping successfully is an art. Doping successfully without ever getting caught is extremely difficult art to master.

    Each individual has different approaches to doping and if Nadal succeeded in doing it, it doesn't mean Fed, Djokovic can manage the same.

    It is wrong to assume if one top athletic successfully doping then all other top dogs are doing the same.

    Modern doping techniques are magic, arcane and confined in closed trusty circle. And saying everyone can achieve the same level is just stupid.

    It is like everyone can have Djokovic's return, Federer's forehand or Nadal's topspin if they practice enough.

    I would say Nadal has mastered the dark art.
     
  36. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    We have pages upon pages of examples of hate and delusion, and now slanderous speculation. Whatever the mental pathology that leads to such malice, at least its on display for all to see...

    Nadal fans as a whole are far from perfect, but I have never seen equivalent behavior on our side :confused:

    If it exist on some other message board in equivalent measure and quantity; I would like to know...
     
  37. Mike Sams

    Mike Sams Legend

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    *******s are terrified that their beloved hero could be exposed as a cheater. :lol: People have been suspicious for years. And now it looks like it could be true all along. Bad knee my foot!!! Something else is up!
     
  38. jrs

    jrs Professional

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    Armstrong's case not same as Nadal

    In Lance Armstrong's case accusations were being made by competitors, team mates and others involved with the tour. In Nadal's case I haven't seen anything from anyone connected to the tour - only fans - seems like they are all just guessing!

    Also, Nadal appears to be a very nice guy - not the case with Armstrong, he appeared to have a lot of enemies.
     
  39. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Yes i know. The AO and Wimbledon is also huge, but since he's already won many of those slams they aren't as significant as the 4(or 5) FOs.

    If Fed and Nole was doping all along, they should stripped all of their slam trophies. And that applies to any player, I don't care how much of a superstar he is.
     
  40. Mike Sams

    Mike Sams Legend

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    Tennis dies....
     
  41. TheFifthSet

    TheFifthSet Hall of Fame

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    I have seen some Nadal fans say absolutely appalling things about Federers family, about his personality, wishing him misfortune, rubbing salt on his wounds etc. There are loons in every fan group. It'd be very foolish to believe that Nadal fans are just intrinsically saner people, and vice-versa.


    Anyways, again I should say I don't believe all Fed fans who think Nadal is doping want him to be caught so it can glorify Federer. Or even many. JUST a select few. It's pathetic but when you think about it it's not really THAT uncommon or surprising. I'm sure there are many Ronaldo fans who would REJOICE if Messi was caught doping, because that would give them more room to argue that their player is better.


    But those are fans of the player, not fans of the game. I think every tennis fan (myself included) would want to know the truth if Nadal was doping, but I would consider it one of the darkest days in tennis history if he was, and it would be dreadful.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2012
  42. TheFifthSet

    TheFifthSet Hall of Fame

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    Look, I agree completely, if it was unearthed that he was taking PED's all these years then YES, he should definitely face a long, long if not lifetime ban. I just think that some WANT it to be the case, that they WISH for it to be the case, regardless of where the evidence points. I don't think you want that though so keep in mind I'm not making accusations about you, I just get that vibe from a few people on here.

    And yes, I do believe it is a possibility that he has doped, I'd have to be naive not to think there's at least a remote chance. But as it stands, there is no empirical, concrete evidence to suggest he is, so I'll choose to believe he isn't.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2012
  43. intrepidish

    intrepidish Rookie

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    This is one of the more laughable statements amid a thread filled with forum nerds speculating about things they have not even the slightest bit of evidence about.

    Sure, Nadal didn't train any harder than anyone....only contradicted by every account I have ever read from Moya to Ferrer of how Nadal works incredibly hard and has from a young age.

    In the hate and silliness on these forums you guys overreach yourselves so badly.

    And Soderling would be using PEDs which you can see from how HARD he hits the ball?

    Priceless.
     
  44. TTMR

    TTMR Hall of Fame

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    An objective look at the PED discussion regarding the two most prominent stars of our time:

    Federer hits with perfect technique, so the fact that he hits one of the most powerful and explosive forehands loaded with topspin ever does not suggest he uses PEDs. Federer's game is sublime art.

    Nadal hits with mechanically flawed technique, so the fact that he hits one of the most powerful and explosive forehands loaded with topspin ever suggests he uses PEDs. Nadal's game is manual labour.

    Remember that Federer moves rapidly (especially in his prime) due to his natural light-footedness, anticipation and grace, so the fact that he was very fast in his prime (and still is today compared to most players) does not suggest he uses PEDs.

    Nadal moves rapidly due to sheer muscular propulsion, so the fact he is very fast suggests he uses PEDs. There is no grace or quick step in his movement, just force.

    Remember that Federer is endowed with the perfect genetic combination to be an elite tennis player, coupled with a physically unstrenous game that is a throwback to past greats (despite the fact most of them retired or were finished by 30), so the fact that he remains injury-free and elite past 30 is a result of his nature, not PED use.

    Nadal is endowed with the physical characteristics of a long-time chain gang prisoner, a physique adept for pushing, pulling and hauling, not swiftness, touch or coordination. The fact that he is oft-injured yet manages to recover to top form suggests PED use.

    If anything, Federer would be hurt by PED use, because his game is based on finesse, timing and coordination, where as Nadal would be unable to succeed without PEDs, because his game is based on brawn and endurance. The idea that any tennis player would benefit from PED use is an absurd one. Players with perfect technique would only be hindered.
     
  45. mandy01

    mandy01 G.O.A.T.

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    ^ you are only pointing out stylistic differences between Federer and Nadal. That alone is not enough to prove anything. Just long-winded gibberish. Now, I do find this whole drama from the Nadal camp weird but for me the more plausible reason is that his camp just don't want to begin his comeback on HC. And this is not just for fear of injury but of possible confidence-issues. Even if Nadal doesn't do a complete sweep of the clay-season like every-year routine, he is still likely to win the most no. of matches there, thus giving himself an ideal launchpad for a comeback.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2012
  46. mandy01

    mandy01 G.O.A.T.

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    mediocrity? What? Where? In what sense? Backed by whom? Don't talk nonsense.
    Federer was NEVER mediocre ( regardless of how much you love to hate him). Most people who saw him wondered how he hadn't won a major. Commentators were comparing him to Sampras even before he'd won his first major. Yes, he had issues mentally. Physically as far as I know ( and keeping the benefit of doubt intact) he had Paganinni put together a two-year fitness programme for him starting 2001. That's where he started building himself in the right departments. If you read Pierre's interviews you can tell the guy's a genius. Not only did he understand Roger and the fact that Roger wasn't particularly fond of any sort of monotony but he designed literally the perfect exercise routine for him.
     
  47. intrepidish

    intrepidish Rookie

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    I am hoping this was meant to parody the type of post I commented on earlier.

    Yes because Nadal plays a physically aggressive game it follows (if you are insane) that he uses PEDs.

    We could just as easily say that Federer's apparent ease of movement, speed and rarely exhausted body is proof of PEDs.

    QED
     
  48. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2008
    Messages:
    31,126
    Location:
    New York
    That was IRONICAL. I was making fun of the guy who called Djoko "a mediocre player for years", something he never was. Of course Fed was never mediocre either. I was making fun of his logic and calling it nonsense.
     
  49. Ms Nadal

    Ms Nadal Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2012
    Messages:
    554
    This silent ban story is nonsense. Remember people were sayong 6 month ban until late December and that Rafa would return for Abu Dhabi? Didn't happen did it?
     
  50. wy2sl0

    wy2sl0 Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2010
    Messages:
    1,573
    You have to pass to come back. If his knee is actually toasted, as bad as doctors said years ago, he more than likely absolutely had to use some form of PEDs to get it up to an elite level. We aren't talking about rehabbing a joe's knees so he can be a weekend warrior. We are talking about an athlete that not only has issues with his knees, but STILL has the ability to be probably the most agile (him and Djoko) mover ever in tennis.

    The blinders some of you have on are just INSANE. If he still can't pass tests, he won't come back, it is that simple.
     

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