Silent Ban Discussion

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by MasturB, Dec 28, 2012.

  1. intrepidish

    intrepidish Rookie

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    You got the bolded part right but you directed it at the wrong person...you have the blinders on yourself with your silly conspiracy theory
     
  2. TTMR

    TTMR Hall of Fame

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    Exactly, the blinders some people have on are just insane. Nadal is clearly the one on PEDs, and no other top player.
     
  3. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    Fluff and bull sh1t = santorum
     
  4. intrepidish

    intrepidish Rookie

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    Sorry seems you were indeed doing a parody only the problem is that here, it can pass for serious given the typical poster :)
     
  5. MethodTennis

    MethodTennis Hall of Fame

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    What has your post got to do with anything :-? A 19 yo playing the french open for the first time ever makes the final.

    Personally I dont think they have anything on Rafa, and believe they would publicly ban him if they did, if you had read my posts you would have realised this, and whats it got to go with federer?
     
  6. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

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    Did he return yet and I did not notice?
     
  7. Ms Nadal

    Ms Nadal Semi-Pro

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    This is it, Rafa still isn't back and people said 6 month ban then back in Decemeber. What is their excuse now? :confused:. I don't believe this ban mallarky. It has been too long without our Rafa though :(. I love him and miss him so much. Another few months without him!!! When will he come back to us? Tennis is boring without him. So don't care who wins the AO. No Rafa not interested. They are all moaning about who will get Murray in the semis haha! Lopsided draw. The Fed and Djok fans will have some sleepless nights after all! Not as bad as us Rafa fans though.
     
  8. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

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    Settle down Bulzilla! :)
     
  9. Ms Nadal

    Ms Nadal Semi-Pro

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    Not you too! :(. I am billy no mates in here, sigh. Good thing I go to other forums and don't come here much. Don't know how I have been labelled in here really. Call me dumb but I can't understand folk in here.
     
  10. bluetrain4

    bluetrain4 Legend

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    I just don't think if any player actually was caught doping that the ban would be silent. I know the tours want to protect their product, but I'm still guessing that a major player caught doping would be made an example of.
     
  11. Ms Nadal

    Ms Nadal Semi-Pro

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    I think as you. All this talk is nonsense. Rafa wouldn't do that anyway. He is an honest hard working man who fights for his victories and he would have been exposed time ago. It's the Armstrong effect taking over peoples minds.
     
  12. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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  13. TTMR

    TTMR Hall of Fame

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    Please. If a top player who was essential to the marketing of the game was caught, nothing would be done. Tennis is following the NBA model of the star-driven sport (hence the homogenization of majors and other tournaments). The game would suffer a massive blow if a major figure was thrust from his perch a la Armstrong. The ITF is under no obligation to release testing results, and they don't, aside from a few disposable players of whom they can make examples.

    There is a reason why players like Ferrer, Fish, Melzer and others have begun to play their best tennis around 29-30. It's a much less pronounced version of what happened 10-15 years ago when MLB players like Bonds and McGwire were having record-breaking years in their late thirties and forties, eclipsing stats from their own primes by huge margins.

    The silent ban is simply a stupid concept through and through, conjured up by trolls and fed upon by anti-Nadal zealots and secondary trolls down the line. In the minds of said zealots, the ATP and ITF are so unscrupulous as to not publicly reprimand and sanction an 'obvious doper' in Nadal, yet they are principled enough to ban him quietly to 'ensure fairness' vis-a-vis his rivals Federer and Djokovic. Why would they do anything at all? Isn't this the same group that slowed down the courts, fluffed up the balls, refused to enforce time violation rules in order to benefit Nadal? Aren't these the same people that 'ruined the game' to make money?

    The reality is they are all doping. There's no saint among the absolute elite in the game; they do what they can to survive and thrive on a grueling tour where they are no doubt sore, injured and fatigued often, with little time to recover between mandatory events. Personally, I think the steroid/PED witchhunting in sports over the last decade has caused far more harm than the actual drugs ever have.
     
  14. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    They don't do enough testing to catch anyone, so there may or may not be a problem. But speculating on who may be a problem is futile.




     
  15. mandy01

    mandy01 G.O.A.T.

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    okay, no, I didn't read that post properly. My bad.
     
  16. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    No problem. Conveying irony can be tricky on the internet.
     
  17. Tony48

    Tony48 Legend

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    Agassi said he tested positive for crystal meth, lied about how it got into his system and the ATP threw the case out (source: ESPN). And no one ever knew.

    So despite Agassi's positive drug test, he wasn't made an example of. While a person like Gasquet was. You could say that their relative importance to the tour becomes a significant factor when it comes to imposing a ban.
     
  18. DeShaun

    DeShaun Banned

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    A very good post.
     
  19. dafinch

    dafinch Banned

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    You mean, the way that Agassi was made an example of?
     
  20. NamRanger

    NamRanger G.O.A.T.

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    Even a mini-celebrity tennis player like Rusedski got caught and basically got away with it under some dubious circumstances. If Rusedski can get away with some dubious reasons, what makes you think Nadal, Djokovic, Federer, etc. couldn't get away with doping? The ITF/ATP would turn a blind eye no problem.
     
  21. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

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    Of course the ATP/ITF would turn a blind eye with Nadal, Djokovic and Federer types. That is a no-brainer. People who say or think otherwise have no clue how the real corporate world works when billions of dollars are on the line. It is too ridiculous to try and argue with these people, they just don't get it.
     
  22. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    They can't turn a blind eye very easily, but they can quite easily under-invest in a soft testing regime that won't really catch anyone cheating prudently.
     
  23. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

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    They do both, they turn a blind eye and under-invest in a soft testing regime.
     
  24. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    You get a sample, send it off to the lab, receive a positive result from the lab and then bury it?

    Too many people and too much danger in such a bureaucratic process. And bureaucracies don't work that way.

    If you don't want to find, you don't inquire. The problem that arises then is that if there is a scandal you're accused of laxness.
     
  25. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

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    Yes. Lance Armstrong and Marion Jones(to name just two) both had positive test results buried, what are you talking about?
     
  26. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    The Armstrong results were only half buried as there was evidence for a long while that the results were positive and that he bribed his way out of trouble, which is exactly the point I'm making.

    You can't successfully turn a blind eye to positive results with so many people involved.
     
  27. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Jones was brought un-done by the Balco investigation and did not test positive before it although she did miss testing without significant penalty, so again officials did go soft in that instance.

    But again officials don't want positive lab results as a cover-up is always difficult so under-testing is the best option even when an athlete is suspect.
     
  28. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    There is the case of Williams's missed doping control because she supposedly felt threatened enough to retreat to the panic room.

    This deserved some sort of suspension, but received none.
     
  29. NamRanger

    NamRanger G.O.A.T.

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    Huh?


    Rusedski blatantly tested positive for steroids, and got away with it under some dubious reasons (ATP had contaminated supplements or some ******** like that). That already blows your argument up.
     
  30. wy2sl0

    wy2sl0 Hall of Fame

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    Look at the quotes here: http://tennishasasteroidproblem.blogspot.ca/p/players-talk-about-doping.html

    Most notably, which is obvious (cough Djokovic)

    John McEnroe: "You can tell when someone has been on steroids… A guy bulks up, has a new body and never gets tired...You see these guys or girls who come onto the tour talking about their new training programs and their diets where they eat this or that new thing…but they’ll never tell you about the drugs they took."

    Christophe Rochus: "There's a lot of cheating. Simply, people don't like to talk about it...I simply would like to stop the pretending. This hypocrisy is exasperating."

    Fabrice Santoro: "I can't believe there is a real will to fight against doping...I don't know whether the testing is done to catch the guys or just for show. Sometimes, I ask myself the question, when I see what goes on."
     
  31. sbengte

    sbengte Legend

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    ^^ Interesting quotes there. Assume they are all genuine. More :

    Daniel Nestor: "We suspect that there’s always stuff going on. I mean, we watch some of these matches, the guys play five hours and come back the next day and do it again.”

    Jim Courier: "EPO is the problem, I have pretty strong suspicions that guys are using it on the tour. I see guys who are out there week in and week out without taking rests. EPO can help you when it's the fifth set and you've been playing for four-and-a-half hours."
     
  32. merlinpinpin

    merlinpinpin Hall of Fame

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  33. SLD76

    SLD76 Legend

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    the peanut gallery here will still deny vehemently that there is no doping in tennis and that those caught would be duly punished, lol
     
  34. Netspirit

    Netspirit Hall of Fame

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    I believe that the "silent ban" theory is complete and utter BS.
     
  35. batz

    batz G.O.A.T.

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    It would if the WADA code was in place in the 90s - but it wasn't.

    Why do people consistently point at what happened 2 decades ago as evidence for things happening today? There is no relation between the anti-doping controls in place during the 90s the WADA based regimen of 2013.
     
  36. SLD76

    SLD76 Legend

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    ok..hows about wayne odesnik getting busted...and then getting a lighter sentence for "disclosing" and helping out the ITF, and then all of a sudden players are complaining about other players snitching?

    Andy Murray " "You want to make sure that people who are fined and suspended aren't let off because they are telling on other players. That is snitching."

    http://tennishasasteroidproblem.blogspot.com/2012/07/wayne-odesnik-where-truth-lies.html
     
  37. batz

    batz G.O.A.T.

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    Is that tinfoil hatter blog supposed to have some kind of authority? :) Have a word with yourself mate.

    You'll be telling me next that Elvis will be riding Shergar round his paddock on the moon.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2013
  38. SLD76

    SLD76 Legend

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    how about the murray quote is from an espn article.

    but thanks for ducking the facts.
     
  39. batz

    batz G.O.A.T.

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    Facts. :) Good one mate - from someone who posts tinfoilhatter.com as an appeal to authority.

    Do I agree that people who cheat shouldn't receive lesser sentences because they implicate others? Yes - so does Murray.

    Would it be reasonable to label someone who passed information on others solely to reduce the sanctions that they might face as a snitch? Probably - so does Murray.

    Would it be correct to label someone who passed information on others but neither sought or derived any advantange for themselves as a snitch? In my view no - I suspect Murray might feel the same but I don't know.

    It is the seeking and obtaining of some advantage in exchange for information that makes someone a snitch - not the exchange of information per se.

    Now - given that you feel that posting selective quotes from tennis players is some kind of evidence for doping would you like me to post some quotes where Murray calls for more strenuous testing?
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2013
  40. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Odesnik was caught by ... Australian customs ... and not by drug testers.

    Rusedski and a few others have been caught, but again given that very few are caught probably says more about the paucity of testing.

    And as for him getting away with it, well, that took a lot of trouble and attracted criticism so better to have a weak testing system.

    And this was my assertion and its hardly contradicted by one case.



     
  41. SLD76

    SLD76 Legend

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    So the same andy murray calling for stringent drug testing is against someone giving up info that would indeed help authorities root out dopers.

    Makes sense to me.
     
  42. batz

    batz G.O.A.T.

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    No, the same Andy Murray who calls for stringent drug testing doesn't think that drug cheats should be rewarded for their information.

    This isn't difficult mate. Murray has made no general comment on cheats supplying information to the authorities - he's commented on cheats being rewarded for providing information to the authorities - he doesn't think that should happen.

    You think drug cheats should be given a reduced sentence just for doing the right thing - fair enough. Andy Murray doesn't.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2013
  43. SLD76

    SLD76 Legend

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    I didnt say I thought Odesnik should have had a lessening of his sentence.

    That said, it curious that Murray specifically said the word "snitching"
    A snitch is someone who tells on others.

    So again, Murray has a problem with guys speaking and naming names when it comes to doping.

    Thats a curious stance from the same guy who was going on and on a few months ago about the need for stringest testing, which implies he wants the game to be as clean as possible. Wouldnt naming names help that?
     
  44. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    A convicted smuggler and cheat does not have a lot of personal credibility in the first place, so their accusations are not necessarily anything other than self=serving.
     
  45. batz

    batz G.O.A.T.

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    Sigh. I've already explained to you the specific meaning of 'snitch' - someone who offers information in return for a reward or some other gratification. A murder witness who testifies is not a snitch. A doper who names others because of a guilty conscience is not a snitch - but according to your definition, they would be.

    If there is no consideration being sought by the person offering the information then that person is not a snitch. Contrary to your definition, it is not the act of providing information to the authorities that makes a person a snitch - it is the seeking of a beneficial outcome for themselves in exchange for the information that makes a person a snitch.

    Hence the murder witness is not a snitch but the caught dope cheat looking to reduce his sanction in exchange for information, is a snitch.

    Murray doesn't say people shouldn't name names - he says they shouldn't be rewarded for doing it.

    Why do you think cheats should be given lesser sentences just for doing the right thing?
     
  46. SLD76

    SLD76 Legend

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    true, look at lance armstrong.

    Im being sarcastic, btw.
     
  47. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    I rather think though that given the omnipresence of 'cheating' in everyday life, setting up sport as a morality tale told to children about fair play seems more than a little hypocritical.
     
  48. joeri888

    joeri888 G.O.A.T.

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    Not necessarily, which is why it is important to have a trial. Not a jury trial, but a trial in which all the evidence is brought forward, the witnesses are crossexamined and it becomes clear in what way their testimonies differ and overlap. Based on that, a decision should be made whether there is compelling evidence that someone used doping. It's not that hard. OF COURSE it should be taken into account that guys like Floyd Landis and Tyler Hamilton have an incentive to testify. If not for an incentive, they wouldn't and everyone would go free. And of course this makes it necessary to assess the reliability and validity of the evidence brought by witnesses. But that cannot mean that not in any case, the evidence brought forward by a 'snitch' would not be helpful to bring the 'bigger fish' to justice.
     
  49. joeri888

    joeri888 G.O.A.T.

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    I agree with you, but that doesn't make it good or right or okay.
     
  50. SLD76

    SLD76 Legend

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    I already answered that question

    why did Murray use the word "snitch" specifically. Being a snitch doesnt neccesarily imply benefit for telling on someone.

    Also, if Murray is so diehard to catch the dopers, should he not support whatever methods prevent doping in his sport. Why is he concerned if some barely journeyman player has a sentence lightened?
     

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