Silent Bans - A Real thing?

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by BrooklynNY, Feb 5, 2013.

  1. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

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    That is not my interpretation and is obviously not the interpretation of the footfault blogger because the blogger is talking about a ban that was not known publicly and which the ITF kept hidden.
     
    #51
  2. Tennis_Hands

    Tennis_Hands Hall of Fame

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    It is a bit more complicated than that, I am afraid.


    Um. You have it backwards. They tested positive BECAUSE there was an effort to catch the cheats. The very essence of the problem, that tennis has, is, that the effort in tennis is insufficient.

    By the way, I find it disturbing, that you consider the absence of more caught dopers in tennis a sign, that the sport is clean.

    Not that a caught finalist, Major champion and scandal with covered positive doping tests (Agassi) are peanuts.

    But, then again, you consider that someone set LA up, so, I am wasting my time, discussing this topic with you.

    You clearly have no idea what WADA is.

    The only way to hinder its work is, if entire Governments refuse to cooperate (like Spain does at the moment).

    Stupid, but not unexpected from you.
     
    #52
  3. BrooklynNY

    BrooklynNY Hall of Fame

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    Right, that was my interpretation.

    Anyway, I stumbled upon this on twitter and thought it would be interesting to see what you all thought as this topic has come up before, but just in most peoples imagination.

    This is also speculation and imagination, but it is the best 'evidence' or factors that to lend some credibility to the idea, not sure how much though, but still.
    Anyway, I've been offline the past few day and it's interesting to see some spirited discussion.
     
    #53
  4. LaneMyer

    LaneMyer Rookie

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    around here in Chicago it was widely known that MJ was betting on a sport (his voice was heard on a recording device where Jordan was inquiring about a point spread) but there was no proof it was a Bulls or NBA game. Some believed it to be a North Carolina game. But yeah it was pretty obvious that MJ accrued a silent ban just from his press conference.

    At the press conference when he was asked if he would ever return he said, " Five years down the road, if the urge comes back, if the Bulls will have me, if David Stern lets me back in the league, I may come back."

    I don't think anyone could possibly believe Jordan would give up an NBA salary and everything around it in order to ride a Greyhound and stay in Motel 6s to play Double A baseball for $400 a week.
     
    #54
  5. citybert

    citybert Professional

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    Yes and many have said his fathers murder may have something to do with it. Punishment from Him not paying up. Tons of money but he prob just said Im MJ and i dont owe you anything.

    Believe what you want but again only he knows for sure.
     
    #55
  6. Vlad_C

    Vlad_C Semi-Pro

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    Interesting how every time a thread on doping comes up, it is immediately hijacked by some with all sorts of irrelevant/irrational posts, and any attempt at a serious discussion quickly degenerates into paranoia and insanity.
     
    #56
  7. Speranza

    Speranza Hall of Fame

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    The Spanish Government consisting of people who are currently being accused of taking illegal payments?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21305154

    And now Australia openly admits that there is a doping problem:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-21363100


    I hope you don't think the above links are irrational or paranoid.
     
    #57
  8. Vrad

    Vrad Semi-Pro

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    But, but, but, TT members had assured me that it would be impossible to hide doping, and that it couldn't be widespread...

    Smh.

    Anyone who thinks any tennis player is above suspicions is in denial. About the most you can say is that from external appearances, some certainly show far greater signs of being on PEDs than others.
     
    #58
  9. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

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    Only stupid people think that.
     
    #59
  10. Speranza

    Speranza Hall of Fame

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    :)

    Stupid? Not necessarily. In denial? Yes.

    People believe that which they want to.
     
    #60
  11. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

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    I think it is a little bit of both. :)
     
    #61
  12. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Of course, because democratic capitalist governments are completely immune to being the instrument of big business representatives, aren't they? :roll: The whole point of democratic capitalist governments is that they are controlled by big business and its class interests. If the Spanish government is deliberately burying evidence of doping and keeping WADA in ignorance, it is down to the pressure being exerted by the moneymen at the top of businesses involved in the sports concerned.

    How much money do you reckon would be lost if top footballers in Spain, or other major football countries, were exposed as drug cheats? No wonder the government would cover it up, then, and fear of lost corporate profit, especially with the scandal it would cause, would be the motive. It's not a case of bad, evil people covering up PED use, per se. Corporate profit is the reason.

    Going forward, blood tests at every tournament, for every participant, will cut out PED use before it becomes a scandal full of corruption and deception. And the only way to prevent corruption in the actual process is to completely keep apart the profit making side of any sport from the drug testing. The thing is, governments are controlled by big businesses, and big businesses will always be far more involved and invested in big professional sports than they ever will in anti-doping authorities. So, who could control the anti-doping authorities and yet still have the power to take on the vested interests in big professional sports? Conclusion, corruption is endemic in the capitalist system, and the power lies with the corrupters while they have private ownership of the means of production and the state apparatus.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2013
    #62
  13. swordtennis

    swordtennis Hall of Fame

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    Pulling straw men out, Fans of a player tend to think and act this way.
    Fans of tennis tend to not think this way.
    This thing with Nadal is nothing new it all old hat been doing this since 2005.
    Got some tendernitis in the knees no career ending ******** injury that no one knows what it exactly is. That been going on forever lmao @ the the surprise! The worry! with his fans.
    Nadal will gear up ramp jack up and will be cruising soon. Yawnage.
    Silent Bans going on huge probability

    This is the big time no mom's basement tennis.
    The big time $$$ and the competition is in the masking agents.
     
    #63
  14. Speranza

    Speranza Hall of Fame

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    Ok, we'll have to agree to....agree ;)
     
    #64
  15. swordtennis

    swordtennis Hall of Fame

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    I am waiting for the new season on PBS! :)
     
    #65
  16. Speranza

    Speranza Hall of Fame

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    And dare I say, it will be worth the wait. Starting with the unfathomable question of how I survived a certain jump ;)
     
    #66
  17. vandre

    vandre Hall of Fame

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    why don't we have some "silent bans" around here?
     
    #67
  18. swordtennis

    swordtennis Hall of Fame

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    Mega Epic Series. Taking it to a whole new level.
    Brilliant! just Brilliant! :)
     
    #68
  19. swordtennis

    swordtennis Hall of Fame

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    Who are you talking to?
    Anyone specific?
     
    #69
  20. paulorenzo

    paulorenzo Hall of Fame

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    read through an article posted in another thread. this idea very likely may have been touched on in this thread.

    but who agrees that the prosecution through speculation going around these days has gotten worse? and it's only going to get worse with each suspect story of injury/ break or uncharacteristically good results without an accompanying public ban or report of doping.


    accusations may eventually be taken as more than accusations to the public if they go on for long enough without any supporting or opposing evidence. the act of basing a player's probability of doping will be more and more based on speculation rather than fact, because no facts are being provided.

    tennis's governing factions need to provide those facts through better testing (at least test for EPO more often) and through transparency. the former seems possible, not certain about the latter.
     
    #70
  21. Vlad_C

    Vlad_C Semi-Pro

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    Not at all, that is the kind of to-the-point info that we need to see more of. But if you read all the posts in this thread, the majority of them are nonsensical.

    Anyway, it will be interesting to see what comes out of that investigation in Australia, although I am pretty sure it is focused mostly on their rugby league.

    As far as tennis is concerned, I don't think anyone with a little common sense doubts that there is doping in tennis.
    What we really have to ask ourselves is why is the ATP not doing more to prevent it.
    What we need is not silent bans, but rather catching one of the guys at the top, and making a public example out of him, tar and feathers and all. Something like an official 2-year ban, which would also hit hard where it hurts the most - in the bank account.
     
    #71
  22. Flash O'Groove

    Flash O'Groove Hall of Fame

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    If a top guy is catcher, I don't want a 2-year ban but a permanent ban and a removing of all his titles. Obviously it will never happen.
     
    #72
  23. raging

    raging Professional

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    Never say never...:twisted:
     
    #73
  24. raging

    raging Professional

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    It is a difficult situation with WADA being half funded by Governments & by the IOC. Corruption is everywhere & if WADA are carrying out the tests, it is easy to see how their results could be compromised.

    The ATP, WTA & ITF are really unable to police their sport without relying on WADA. It is a classic Catch 22. They have to do something.

    What is the solution?
     
    #74
  25. citybert

    citybert Professional

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    Solution is just to allow people to dope. All this stuff will be legal to use in 10-15 years anyway. Just look at all the stuff
    they said was cheating in the 70s and 80s. Uppers, anti inflammatories, cortisone shots, etc. they are all allowed now. There are many studies that show HGH is actually good for you.
     
    #75
  26. Thud and blunder

    Thud and blunder Semi-Pro

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    Must be the first time Rio stands accused of having a lot on his mind... :)
     
    #76
  27. raging

    raging Professional

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    oh great...Wayne just joined the forum:)
     
    #77
  28. mariecon

    mariecon Hall of Fame

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    Didn't that already happen? But he only got a 6 month ban...:twisted:
     
    #78
  29. Goosehead

    Goosehead Hall of Fame

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    lance arnstrong had his 7 tour de france titles stripped..there is a gap in the records where his wins were officially..

    Ben 'justjuice' Johnson..had his 100m 1988 olympic gold medal and WR removed and Carl Lewis was given the gold ..(officially only lewis and usain bolt have retained their 100m gold at next olympics)..although ironically it turns out that USA kept quiet loads of drug test fails in the 80s including a fail by lewis at the 1988 100m olympic trials :confused:

    you probably know all this but its just a couple of many examples of drug cheats being caught afterwards and having their achievements taken away.
     
    #79
  30. citybert

    citybert Professional

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    With Gene therapy available in 10-15 years there will literally be no way to test, so I don't see any other way.
     
    #80
  31. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

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    Are you serious? The ATP does not want to catch and expose its dopers, the sport would be ruined because doping is surely rampant at the top of tennis as it is in other professional sports. You would have a domino effect happen like you did in cycling where cyclist after cyclist was exposed as a doper. Was there one clean cyclist at the top? Better to look the other way and let the dopers dope and make sure none of it comes out publicly (aside from the odd low tier player whom they can afford to sacrifice as a doper) and let the sport prosper.
     
    #81
  32. Vrad

    Vrad Semi-Pro

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    Exactly. Again, look at cycling. After the doping scandals were exposed, its popularity plummeted.

    No ATP president wants to be the one standing on a podium and telling the public that one of the top guys, with millions of followers, who brings in millions of dollars, is a cheat.

    Forget the scandal etc. just put yourself in the ATP president's shoes and think about whether you want to even be anywhere near that press conference. Heck, I think many people would have a heart attack before the PC even begins.

    Human nature would drive you to try and kill it quietly if possible.
     
    #82
  33. Vrad

    Vrad Semi-Pro

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    Its only because of "nonsensical" comments like the ones in this forum, and the few in the popular media that doping is ever exposed. There is no incentive for anyone otherwise to expose doping. There are tremendous incentives to hide it.

    Tennis forums these days almost exactly mirror cycling forums on the subject of doping prior to the doping revelations. Some people calling out certain athletes as dopers based on loose evidence (because no one has any incentive to collect, much less publicly release, stronger evidence) and others calling them nonsensical posters.
     
    #83
  34. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

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    One day there is bound to be a big tennis player exposed, it has happened in every other sport, so it is only a matter of time and I am not talking about a Gasquet level player who used cocaine, I am talking about a big top player and his PED use exposed. It is tougher to expose these guys in tennis because it is an individual sport and secrets are not shared as they likely are in a team sport. Much harder to actually prove drug use for an individual player in tennis.
     
    #84
  35. Vrad

    Vrad Semi-Pro

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    I agree. And the ATP would be smarter to try and tackle this issue head on as early as possible, where they can dictate the terms, and look like the good guys, as opposed to having an investigative journalist find something and then the ATP having to play damage control.

    However, human nature means that the ATP will continue to cross their fingers, and kick the can down the road.
     
    #85
  36. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

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    I agree with everything you have said here.
     
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  37. raging

    raging Professional

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    #87
  38. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Gasquet was cocaine. That's no scandal, at least not to me. The biggest doping scandals in tennis to date are:

    Mariano Puerta (twice tested positive, at 2003 Vina del Mar and at the 2005 French Open, for the PEDs clenbuterol and etilefrine, respectively). Puerta served bans for 9 months the first time, and 2 years the second time.

    Petr Korda (tested positive at 1998 Wimbledon for nandrolone, just 5 months after winning the 1998 Australian Open and having a negative drug test). Korda was banned for 12 months from September 1999, although he had already retired by then.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2013
    #88
  39. raging

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    This exact thing is happening in Australia with 1 football club.
    At the press conference you could tell by their faces that they were/are all in shock/ denial. The president of that club never thought it would happen on his watch.

    (Australian Football is a huge cultural institution in Oz, a bit like NFL in the USA.) Spectator numbers far outweigh tennis.)

    Two days later the national body investigating corruption & doping has also unearthed cases of doping in several sports teams.

    Sport is a billion dollar growth industry in most countries.
    The AFL mirrors that growth & they are in damage control.
    Australian Sport has been rocked & WADA are just about to get their funding
    increased by the Australian Government.
    John Fahey is on the warpath:twisted:
     
    #89
  40. raging

    raging Professional

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    #90
  41. Vlad_C

    Vlad_C Semi-Pro

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    I would not be surprised at all to see a big tennis-related scandal this year.
    After Lance Armstrong, the soccer betting scandal in Europe, the new crime-doping scandal in Australia, it seems that they've finally decided to clean up house in sports around the world.
    It is definitely time for the ATP to join in and do the same, with no fear and no shame, as far as the organization is concerned.

    I really don't believe that in tennis the problem is quite as widespread as some claim. Otherwise we wouldn't see that much of a performance gap between some players and the rest of the field. (Or if it is, then clearly most of them are not getting the top-shelf PEDs...) Either way, we only need one famous player to be exposed and kicked out of the game - that should be enough of a deterrent for the rest of them, at least for a while. Silent bans do nothing to prevent others from using - we need a Lance Armstrong type of scandal to get the rest of the players to clean up.
     
    #91
  42. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    A Lance Armstrong style scandal means Federer, Nadal or Djokovic getting caught. That would be a disaster for tennis.
     
    #92
  43. Clarky21

    Clarky21 Banned

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    Who cares? If anyone is doping, including the top guys, it should be exposed and the player banned. The player should also have their titles stripped, and be forced to pay back all the money they won while doped up. It's not helping tennis to keep covering up for players who cheat while they continue to rack up titles and money.
     
    #93
  44. raging

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    Agreed, last thing cycling needed was the Armstrong scandal: they are still recovering...
    sponsors, teams, events, fans are reeling...

    Just like the AFL will be in Australia once they start identifying players:
    If the top player there gets named: the sport would be devastated.
    Their Rugby League as well.

    Be careful what you wish for.

    WE know that there is doping & corruption in tennis,
    my greatest hope for the sport is that the top 5 ATP players are clean.
     
    #94
  45. Subventricular Zone

    Subventricular Zone Rookie

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    Well, the better suspicions about any tennis player are cleared, the better for the sport.
     
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