Single handed backhand for juniors...

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by Ash_Smith, Jun 19, 2011.

  1. NoQuarter

    NoQuarter Rookie

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    I got a good laugh outta this! I am gonna try to work on a 2HBH before my club implements equivalent policies!
     
  2. BevelDevil

    BevelDevil Hall of Fame

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    We need to stop treating all 1hbhs as the same thing.

    I think tennis elbow is much more likely to happen when players use the Continental and Eastern grips.

    Furthermore, many recreational players who taught themselves the 1hbh use grips that are in the continental range (in fact, I've seen many players just use an Eastern forehand grip on their 1hbh!).

    Thus, I think it's likely that many of the cases to TE we might see are due simply to an excessively weak grip, even if it is Eastern.

    Players that use an Extreme Eastern (8/1) make contact much further out in front, which creates a stronger arm structure at contact and also reduces the tendency to muscle or wrist the ball.


    In short, I think it is a mistake to treat all 1hbhs the same. The liabilities of the 1hbh are much mitigated, or possibly eliminated, by using an Extreme Eastern backhand grip.

    Thus, compared with the other 1hbh grips, using the extreme grip:

    1- Reduces susceptibility to tennis elbow
    2- Generates more topspin and thus more consistency, and often more power
    3- Increases the strike zone, particularly for high balls
    4- Reduces the forward-back footwork requirements (because of point 3)
    5- Is easier to learn because of 2,3,4; and because opening the body is more natural both for the grip and for the player; and because acquiring a good slice backhand is not as essential (because of 3 and 4)

    and as a bonus,
    6- Allows most small players to generate more consistent power than they would with a 2hbh.


    Let me end with an analogy -- Imagine there were only two types of forehands under consideration: A continental-grip forehand (like McEnroe, Edberg), and a 2-handed forehand (SW bottom grip, like Seles). Which stroke would be the preferred modern forehnad among players and coaches?

    I'm guessing that the 2hFh would, and people would be talking about how the 1hFh is obsolete.

    Of course, the 1-handed Forehand is not obsolete when we take into account the SW grip.

    Same idea with the 1hbh.
     
  3. TennisCoachFLA

    TennisCoachFLA Banned

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    Good points. Research also show that the weak wrist over flex contributes to TE. Sports doctors recommend strengthening exercises to prevent the issue.

    I do not recommend the 1hb for little kids BUT I do have parents who request it. In these cases I make sure they do exercises to balance the muscles, strengthen the wrist, use the proper grip, and monitor any discomfort.
     
  4. dennis10is

    dennis10is Banned

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    Good idea. I'm campaigning to make this the number issue in the US 2012 election.

    We need to get our priorities straightened in this country. Stopping the spread of 1bh is the most crucial "turn around" the will bring America back to her former glory.

    There should be a 20% income tax penalty for all 1bh'ers.
     
  5. FedExpress 333

    FedExpress 333 Professional

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    ^^^^^

    You're a Republican, arent you?
     
  6. slice bh compliment

    slice bh compliment G.O.A.T.

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    I am for a flat tax.
    You incur a $5 tax bill every time you hit a shot with no discernable spin.
     
  7. drake

    drake Semi-Pro

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    - Best Post Off All
     
  8. dozu

    dozu Banned

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    I agree with BevelDevil to some extent, especially for juniors.

    with a straight arm 1hbh, and contact point in front, the risk of TE is minimal... and the forward contact point dictates that extreme E is very good, especially for juniors who have to deal a lot of high balls. (relative to them)
     
  9. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

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    @dozu

    The whole point of my asking this question was because mini-tennis removes the issue of high balls, at least through Red and Orange. Interestingly, when I was doing some research last night I found that Red (8&u) the ball never bounced above shoulder height for the contact, Orange (9&u) the same, ball might bounce above but never required a contact above shoulder.
    Green (10&u) and Yellow (11+) however, were a slightly different story - seems to me the development of the child physically doesn't stay ahead of the compression of the ball (speaking generally) so they have to deal with higher bouncing balls for their height at Green and Yellow, relative to their height at Red and Orange.

    My thoughts on the grip are therefore confirmed (I think) - eastern (knuckle on 1) to begin and allowing it to slide around to knuckle on 1/8 or 8 as required by the move to green/yellow.

    Cheers
     
  10. dozu

    dozu Banned

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    hey ash - if E or extreme E for 1hbh, and SW for FH, are you gonna teach kids to hit bh and fh with the same side of the string bed?

    seems to be a much easier grip change than the conventional method.
     
  11. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

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    ^^^ I doubt I will. Initially I go knuckle on 3 or maybe 3/4 for forehand and knuckle on 1 for single hander. It might happen that eventually they get to a point where it would be possible (a la Guga) but I'm not sure I would encourage it, maybe if they do it naturally and it works then fair enough.

    Cheer
     
  12. BirdieLane

    BirdieLane New User

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    So I was listening to some Eric Clapton and now just sort of browsing oldie but goodie threads.

    I have a question on this. On the surface, it's hard to question the 1BH v 2BH. Everybody has 2BH so it must be better. And Nole just gave us more proof yesterday, right?

    But when you consider the math behind the 77% quoted above, wouldn't it go something like this?:

    What is percentage of serious junior boys with 1BH? I don't know, so let me make an ambitious guess. Lets say 10% (which I think is a high guess).

    So, lets pretend the top 100 players came from a pool of 100000 players (for the point I'm making, doesn't matter if I'm close or not on this)

    So of our 100000 players, 10000 have 1BH and 90000 have 2BH.

    So at the pro level players that made it are:

    1BH: 23/10000 = 0.2300%
    2BH: 77/90000 = 0.0856%

    So, with my (inflated?) 10% of juniors playing with 1BH assumption, the 1BH player has a 3x better chance of making top 100!? (More if my 10% is high, less if my 10% is low)

    Im sure there are flaws here, so have at it.

    Also, yesterday, it seemed that the Fed 1BH held up ok. Seems more like the FH let down Roger actually. Looking at some stats now. He played two tight sets with Nole, total points was 96 Nole, 95 Fed; So close yet Fed had only 8 FH winners and 24 FH errors. And when he served for 2nd set, he was up 40-15 and missed 4 straight FHs. So again, looking under the hood a little it seems that the FH cost Roger. So I don't think Nole's win is a win for the 2BH v 1BH is it?
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2012
  13. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

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    Interesting to see this thread brought back to life, as this question was raised on a f'book coaches group just the other day. I believe my argument still stands in that the barriers to kids learning single handers are now removed by ROG, but I still don't see coaches teaching single handers (or even giving kids the chance to try one handers, which is probably more important).
     
  14. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

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    there are a lot of misinformation in 1hbh instructions out there. most coaches themselves are not confident how to hit a really good 1hbh. students will try their instruction and quickly feel lack of confidence in the method and will think 1hbh is something very difficult and not reliable. the flaws in swing path is rampant out there. should be able to shorten the swing around the contact point but rarely a coach understand these stuff. biomechanical understanding of 1hbh is in a sad state.

    why not give out some of your pointers that you'd use when starting to teach 1hbh?
     
  15. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

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    ^^^Not sure if you were talking to me, but sure...

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Not all teaching points taught every time, but that is the order I teach it in!
     
  16. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

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    def wasn't referring to a specific coach. just commenting on general state of 1hbh instructions, one of the reasons why so many juniors don't see continued improvement in their 1hbh while all other parts improve.

    some comments on the set of instruction. in followthru the guy in the photo def has his wrist higher up than the eye level unlike the teaching points, which I tend to agree with. this sounds like a small point but the swing path changes depending on such small finishing position. the ideal swing path needs to be more flat than too much low to high like in FH. the guy in photo swings very low to high. another point about elbow. agree that it should be straight at the contact but straightening too early is not a very good habit that limits the versatility of the stroke. the swing should be versatile enough to allow quicker swing than normal full swing without sacrificing the solidity of the racquet in position for handling high paced shots. bent elbow up high as a quick prep allows such kind of flat hitting. gasquet's prep is close to what i mean. also almagro.
    in general i think low to high swing is too emphasized. coaches should understand wrist movement and range of motions are different b/w fh and bh.
     
  17. BirdieLane

    BirdieLane New User

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    I'd be curious for Coaching Mastery or anyone to come up with an explanation why 1BH males seem 3x (or more) likely to make it as a pro as a two handers (based on argument made in my prev post).

    As for teaching, I agree that it's a shot that's not understood. Both technically and tactically.

    If you think the game is all about power, then it's hard to argue a case for the 1BH. However, if you think tennis is a game that requires a lot of different shots and options and situations, then a player with a 1BH could be said to have a 'full set of clubs' versus trying to play Sawgrass with only his woods.

    I also think the 1BH has silently had a technical revolution while we were all watching the serves and forehands. I think Ash's pictures show it very well, the racket head is indeed accelerating up and into the ball with much more racket speed that your dad's 1BH. The modern 1BH can deliver that racket speed into pace or spin, but more to the point...to both. The racket speed of Federer/Gasquet/Almagro/Waw etc gives them a lot of options with the shot that the 1BH of old could never imagine.
     
  18. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I think there is a big reason to go with the 2 hander if possible and I didn't see
    it mentioned...although I didn't read past the part where someone was confused
    on golfer's vs tennis elbow.

    My reason is that Imo, one handers suffer against good first serves and even
    against very good second serves in most cases. Best returners have normally been
    2handers and that is part of the reason why I expect. Even Fed is limited with
    what he can do against good serves to his Bh.
    As has been stressed on here many times, Serve and rtns are a huge part of the
    game.
     
  19. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

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    you think Fed didn't have to handle big servers to win all those tournaments? most of the time the big servers couldn't handle his low slice returns as well as Fed handled their serves. it's not given 1hbh is weaker for returns. it all depends on how well you use it.
     
  20. BirdieLane

    BirdieLane New User

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    Agree. Note how many of the top doubles players have one-handed backhands and their game is all serve and return...very few groundies. Obviously helps on the volley too, but remarkable really how many doubles specialists have 1BHs. A quick look seems to show 9 of top 20 doubles players have 1BHs if I looked at it right.
     
  21. NLBwell

    NLBwell Legend

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    I think you may have a good point.
    My theory is that for the tiny portion of the extremely talented that could become pros, the variety of possible shots and the processes that you have to go through as you develop to have a really good one-handed backhand help the player progress.
     
  22. Avles

    Avles Hall of Fame

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    Well, Federer is 18th on the tour this year in % of points won when returning 1st serves. He's 15th in % of points won against 2nd serves. He's 16th in % of return games won.

    And that's with a ground game that is clearly superior to all but a few players.

    Of course Fed's ROS is awesome by almost any standard-- but it seems pretty clear that it isn't one of the strongest points of his game.
     
  23. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

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    what about in his peak years? his style didn't change much despite some lost ground on confidence recently due to many possible things. in those years what I remember that was striking was he would so often out ace the best servers of that period due to his phenomenal return game. it was difficult to ace him due to great footwork and the reach 1hbh provided. I think his bh return could have been better if his swing had been more flat and aggressive like gasquet, but he has done well with 1hbh and I doubt his achievement could have been better or even equal if he had 2hbh.
     
  24. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    and you think his Bh rtn against power serves was an asset in those wins??:???:
     
  25. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

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    don't know how aggressively a 2hbh could return those power serves but any 2hbh that could have returned those serves most likely were due to the athleticism not 2hbh. against a server who can paint the lines the short reach of 2hbh can be a liability. at pro level accurate serves are not uncommon tho in junior it's much more rare. that's why lots of successful juniors stand no chance in pro level. 1hbh is not a liability for juniors not learning it well is the liability.

    case in point, god forbid, if an aspiring junior learns 1hbh from someone like Oscar he would stand no chance against even good high school players. but if he learns and develops something like gasquet, almagro, Feds, he will have no problem at any level.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2012
  26. doctor dennis

    doctor dennis Rookie

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    My daughter currently plays mini orange tournaments. In the few years she's been playing I've seen two boys with one handed backhands.
    One is actually part of the aegon futures. His backhand is amazing. Its quite refreshing to see that his coach went against the norm and produced a solid one hander.
    I think the one handed backhand will cease to exist in 10 years however. I do Hope not though.

    DD
     
  27. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    absolutely not, :) as any 2 hander can go to the 1 handed slice anytime he
    needs to...where the 1 hander has to go right out of the box against big serves.

    Pretty common acceptance that the 2 greatest returners over the last 25 yrs
    both had 2 handers and showed this ability during some of the biggest serving
    tennis has seen.
     
  28. FrisbeeFool

    FrisbeeFool Rookie

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    It's a silly debate anyways, you can be successful with a one or two hander. It's all about personal preference. What do you mean by, "the one-hander has to go right out of the box against big serves"?
     
  29. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

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    that's the premise I don't agree with. with the right footwork and technique 1hbh doesn't have to go to slice right away for returns. if they have to there is some flaw. and I have to say the best 1hbh the world has seen is yet to come.
     
  30. Avles

    Avles Hall of Fame

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    You're right, I don't know about the peak years. And it occurs to me that some of the players ahead of Fed in % return games/points probably play more on clay, and against worse opposition, which would inflate their return numbers somewhat (Berlocq for example).

    Still, my (totally armchair) perspective is that Fed's return works extremely well for getting the ball in play, but that he's less able to be aggressive with it than someone like Djokovic or Murray. But my perception comes from watching a bunch of matches on TV and nothing else, so it could definitely be misguided.

    Asking whether Fed would have done better with a 2hbh is like asking whether he'd do better if he were 6'4''-- he'd be a different player. I do think if that you grafted the returns of a Djokovic or a Murray or a Ferrer onto his game he probably would be better in certain circumstances.
     
  31. dennis10is

    dennis10is Banned

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    Not silly, very serious. Don't you know that in every aspects of living and being a human being there can be one and only one superior way of doing or believing?

    One religion, one economic system, one politica party, one way to play tennis, one brand one men's thong underwear.

    Clearly, my way is the best and everybody else is inferior and it is my job to tell you that you are wrong.

    Rinse and repeat.
     
  32. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    What I mean is in most matches with a good server against the best one handers,
    the one hander is left to block, chip and slice to try and deal with the big serves.
    2 handers don't labor under this limitation near as often. It's not uncommon at
    all to see Agassi or DJ to rip back fast serves with nice TS Bh rtns. Far more
    uncommon for even the best 1 handers.
     
  33. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    be as sarcastic as you like, but the best returners of the modern men's game
    have been 2 handers.
    I like the 1 hander plenty, but for me, this is an area that is very important given
    how many big servers there are.
    Imo the one hander is superior in ways too, but none that are as important.
    Are you suggesting there are no pros and cons to each?
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2012
  34. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    Isn't Youznhy in the top 4 or 5 of return of service points won? He has a 1hbh.
     
  35. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Career or last year?
    I don't know, but that stat wouldn't really show too much imo, since
    most rtn pts won are off second serves anyway.
     
  36. dennis10is

    dennis10is Banned

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    Can I join your crusade (or do you prefer jihad) for the final solution to the 1bh blight?

    2 handedness is next to Godliness. So say we all.
     
  37. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    2012 2nd Serve Return Points Won
    Points Won Total Points % Matches
    1. Andy Murray 1374 2450 56 72
    2. Novak Djokovic 1515 2718 56 87
    3. Rafael Nadal 756 1378 55 48
    4. David Ferrer 1390 2555 54 91
    5. Mikhail Youzhny 875 1635 54 54

    Career 2nd Serve Return Points Won
    Points Won Total Points % Matches
    1. Alberto Berasategui 7687 13658 56 477
    2. Andre Agassi 16704 29909 56 899
    3. Patrick McEnroe 4681 8449 55 251
    4. Rafael Nadal 11512 20799 55 705
    5. Thomas Muster 11092 20083 55 625
    6. Michael Chang 14990 27181 55 810
    7. Andy Murray 8561 15542 55 502
    8. Carlos Costa 7369 13387 55 431
    9. Byron Black 8293 15069 55 501
    10. David Nalbandian 9831 17994 55 564


    2012 1st Serve Return Points Won
    Points Won Total Points % Matches
    1. Rafael Nadal 870 2299 38 48
    2. Novak Djokovic 1500 4238 35 87
    3. Gilles Simon 1105 3238 34 68
    4. Juan Monaco 893 2624 34 58
    5. David Ferrer 1347 3974 34 91
    6. Flavio Cipolla 563 1663 34 40
    7. Carlos Berlocq 824 2449 34 56
    8. Kei Nishikori 825 2485 33 55
    9. Benoit Paire 893 2739 33 52
    10. Marin Cilic 900 2774 32 58
    11. Andy Murray 1212 3770 32 72
    12. Marcel Granollers 705 2218 32 46
    13. Richard Gasquet 915 2885 32 64
    14. Fabio Fognini 693 2190 32 46
    15. Radek Stepanek 667 2130 31 50
    16. Stanislas Wawrinka 863 2762 31 55
    17. Guillermo Garcia-Lopez 645 2080 31 45
    18. Roger Federer 1259 4063 31 83
    19. Fernando Verdasco 790 2556 31 54
    20. Mikhail Youzhny 822 2667 31 54

    Career 1st Serve Return Points Won
    Points Won Total Points % Matches
    1. Guillermo Coria 5374 14921 36 332
    2. Magnus Gustafsson 8363 24423 34 539
    3. Jordi Arrese 3825 11279 34 246
    4. Rafael Nadal 10935 32249 34 705
    5. Filippo Volandri 4858 14413 34 365
    6. Slava Dosedel 5953 17685 34 383
    7. Andy Murray 8130 24153 34 502
    8. David Ferrer 10939 32517 34 734
    9. Tomas Carbonell 4843 14410 34 314
    10. Alberto Berasategui 7435 22185 34 477
    11. Nikolay Davydenko 11284 33774 33 751
    12. Juan Ignacio Chela 9253 27729 33 603
    13. Karol Kucera 7495 22540 33 537
    14. Novak Djokovic 8954 26943 33 592
    15. Stefan Edberg 7449 22544 33 492
    16. Juan Monaco 6553 19833 33 448
    17. Guillermo Canas 6914 20930 33 447
    18. Gilbert Schaller 3483 10576 33 245
    19. Andrei Chesnokov 4614 14030 33 341
    20. Brad Gilbert 3474 10641 33 229
    21. Roger Federer 16757 51357 33 1076
     
  38. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Not sure what you misplaced sarcastic aggression is about. Talking about
    over the top reactions?? If this is an anti MTM thing, you may want to
    reconsider, as Oscar seems to prefer to teach the one hander.

    If someone wants a 2hander, I'm glad to help and teach it. I'm just merely
    stating that I would not encourage it over the 2 hander for jr who is looking to
    be his best; assuming they are trying to make a decision on this.
    Feel free to mention all the reasons you prefer the 1 hander. I guess you play
    with it? :???:
    I don't see you badgering the folks making their case for the 1 hander...so
    clearly you are biased in that direction for some reason, right?
    I use both myself, along with a lefty Fh at times : )
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2012
  39. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Ok, this one is reasonable, since we are talking about 1hander vs big serves.
    ...what do you see?
    See any 1 handers in the top 10?
    Flavio who has little data against big servers, right?
    Anyone I'm missing?
    Even this stat can be misleading, but I guess the best we have.

    I looked at the better ones at the top like DJ and Ferrer and their % of pts won
    against big servers like Fed and Delpo were 10-20% higher than Youzhny's at #20.
    Now 10% may not sound like much, but that was nearly twice as good in many
    cases. Like where Youzhny's 12% against Fed vs DJ's 22-24% against Fed.
    Just evidence though, not proof of course.
     
  40. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    I'm not saying anything really. Just providing some #'s in case ppl want to use them for argument's sake.

    only youznhy in top 10 for 2nd serves.
    the other 1 handers seem to be in clumps toward the lower half of the top 20's.

    Maybe the stats might look different at lower levels such as 6.0 / open players. Idk.
    I like my 1hbh because it's cool.
     
  41. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Maybe armchair here as you say, but right on target and anyone here being
    honest should be willing to admit the same.
     
  42. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, I know what you mean. I love one handers in general and enjoy using them
    in my matches as well. They are cool to hit and look beautiful when done well.
    Mine probably is not that cool looking though, lol. I'd say once the pt is in play,
    they are about even and pretty good for second serves as well, but Imo it is
    quite clear that the 2 hander has the upper hand against big serves by a wide
    margin.
     
  43. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    yes. the numbers support this.

    hitting a dipping passing shot w/ a 1hbh feels good.
     
  44. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

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    thanks for numbers cheetah,

    5263,
    the ranking difference for these stats exaggerate the actual diff. look at %.

    2012 2nd serve rtn. the best of 2h 56% vs best of 1h 54%. difference is 2%. out of 100 2nd serves, returning 56 of them vs 54 of them. this difference is smaller than the ranking on this list suggests.

    2012 1st S rtn. dj 35% vs berlocq 34%; murray 32% vs gasquet 32%. again 1h stack up pretty well against your best ever in history returners.

    based on these numbers you would discourage a junior developing 1h. i wouldn't. also i believe we might be seeing the best 2hbh now but the best 1hbh is yet to come. once the point starts, 1h can offer advantages over 2h if the playing style is well matched with technique.

    i concede there is slight advantage for return but overall i believe it could be overcome with the style and gamesmanship. and that adv may not be as significant as it looks from these stats.
     
  45. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I never suggested discourage the one hander.
    Not sure how you see the stats as exaggerating anything except a 1 handers chances.
    Why start a point in a hole when there is a better option?

    No reason to look at second serve pts since this whole pt is about big 1st serves.
    Even looking at 2012 avg means little in general imo. I think you have to look
    at results against big servers 1st serves to be on topic.
    Some of the 1 hander players didn't have much exposure to the big servers,
    so their stats looked better imo.
    I think the advantage is way bigger than these stats when watching a match
    where you see Fed chip his rtn into the pt, as opposed to DJ rifling back rtns
    with authority whenever he wants to be more aggressive.
     
  46. NLBwell

    NLBwell Legend

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    7,083
    Just picked a year at random from when Federer was #1.

    Four of the top 10 guys who were best at winning points returning first serves were one-handers (I'm sure higher than the percentage on the tour then). Maybe it is just that there are less one-handed guys these days. Playing lots of matches on clay courts certainly affects the statistics.

    2005 1st Serve Return Points Won

    Points Won
    Total Points
    %
    Matches

    1. Rafael Nadal
    1520 4123 37% 89

    2. Guillermo Coria
    1395 3843 36% 82

    3. David Ferrer
    1191 3329 36% 72

    4. Nikolay Davydenko
    1268 3577 35% 86

    5. Gaston Gaudio
    1182 3375 35% 76

    6. Roger Federer
    1486 4283 35% 85

    7. Filippo Volandri
    772 2227 35% 56

    8. David Nalbandian
    1020 3011 34% 63

    9. Gael Monfils
    756 2304 33% 47

    10. Tommy Robredo
    1084 3314 33% 68
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2012
  47. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

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    1hbh players start the point in a hole whenever they are returning? watching the top players never felt that way. and these top 1handers regularly beat lower ranked 2handers who might even have big serves. 2h doesn't mean you'll be able to return like Dj some day and 1h doesn't mean you won't be able to return better than Fed some day. also I'm not a fan of Feds chip return but it is very effective. most of the time you cannot hit a winner off that. Fed made the best out of it and achieved a winning record that won't be matched in a long time. return is important but serving even more so. not all great 2h returners have great serves and if you do congrats you have high ranking but vast majority never achieve that kind of level so you can't sit pretty cuz you have 2hbh.
     
  48. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Few things to take into account imo.
    1st is that 1st 4 are all 2 handers.
    2ond is looking at the yr total doesn't tell us about who they faced.
    the yr I checked...2012... the top guy with a one hander had not faced the
    known big servers.
    3rd is I looked at how to 2handers did against Delpo & Fed's serve, then looked how top
    1 handers did. In each case I looked at the % was way better for 2 handers.
    (I also looked at several other big severs and each case, 2handers were significantly better)
    Your point is well taken though.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2012
  49. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    So now you are suggesting the 1 hand rtn is just as good because players can
    win with it? really?
    No one said you can't win with a 1 hander or that a 2 hander can make you
    serve better, lol. No one said that rtn was as important as serve, did they :)
    No one said Fed couldn't chip into a pt with his one hander or that all you had to
    do was have a 2 hander and sit pretty.

    Really surprised that it is hard for anyone to see that against a very big 1st
    serve, that the 2 hander has an edge, but I guess if you are confused by all
    that distraction above, maybe that explains it??

    Maybe I was lucky to have a very big server make it more clear for me. He
    told me that whenever he sees he is facing a 1 hander he feels it is a big
    advantage for him and explained that he now had a low risk place to go any time he
    needed it. If facing a 2 hander he felt it was way more risky to go at the body or
    to the Bh wheel house, because it may just come back with interest from a
    2 hander. If they had the 2 hander, he then focused on overpowering the Fh
    when he needed to go that route, which he could do, but was way harder than
    overrunning the 1 hander Bh.

    The overpowering option is not something most of us have, but with very big
    servers, on important points, they can bear down more thru the box and limit
    the risk and having to go to a 2ond serve.
     
  50. FrisbeeFool

    FrisbeeFool Rookie

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    377
    Great anecdotal evidence about a big-server you know. Here's some more anecdotal evidence from another big server: Pete Sampras. One of the players he hated to face and did not match up well against was Michael Stich. Agassi, who you site as an example of the prototypical great returner, was an easier matchup for the big-serving Sampras.

    Please, watch some pro tennis on tv. You will see players like Federer, Almagro, Wawrinka, and Haas hitting monster one-handed topspin returns against the the biggest servers in the game.

    Players of all levels can succeed with either style. It's all about what's comfortable for them.
     

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