Single handed backhand for juniors...

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by Ash_Smith, Jun 19, 2011.

  1. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    I dunno...
    I suspect a good slice hit at 5.5 level is totally effective.
    Ever try to volley a hard sliced ball that is low and stretches you out? It's not that simple. I remember lots of A/Open guys used only slices.
    But that is a lost art nowadaze.
     
  2. FrisbeeFool

    FrisbeeFool Rookie

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    Watch the Wawrinka Djokovic match. You'll find 5 hours of video evidence and good examples where wawrinka is trading backhands with djokovic. It's like a forehand. You either time the ball so you can take it early and out in front, before it get's too close to you and too high and jams you, or you back up and let the ball fall back into your strike zone.
     
  3. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    define strike zone
     
  4. FrisbeeFool

    FrisbeeFool Rookie

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    the area where you are comfortable hitting the ball. Wawrinka and Almagro have a bigger strike zone on the backhand side than Fed. They are a little more comfortable with higher balls.

    It's different for everyone and if depends on your grip. For most people it's somewhere in between your knees and your shoulders.


    I can be a very important concept for juniors or beginners. A lot of unforced errors happen because people don't prepare properly for groundstrokes, and when they make contact they are off balance and the ball isn't in their strikezone. The stroke was doomed from the start.


    A big problem you see with juniors is the grips are often way too extreme, because they had trouble with high balls when they were young, and used an extreme grip to win in the 12's or 14's. As players age they get taller and now with their hand way under the handle the can't hit through the balls that are now lower in their strike zone.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2013
  5. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I use the E BH grip. High balls have been mastered many years ago. I was just saying instruction is pretty bad in this respect.
     
  6. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    ok, shoulder sounds fair enough.... so why can't we find 1 clip in the public domain showing people how to hit it... i think the answer is the gurus don't know how.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=lajT4Vgw1ss#t=46s

    here Stan hits one right about eye level (!!).. the link above with a junior girl hitt a bunch at eye level...

    what is the difference between the 2 motions of Stan and the girl.... and what are the consequences of such difference?
     
  7. FrisbeeFool

    FrisbeeFool Rookie

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    They both have textbook form. Notice now they both prepare early and take the ball early before it gets too close to them. She is doing a drill where she's practicing hitting higher balls. In a match she might time some of those balls even earlier and take them lower in her strikezone, but in this video clip she's working on a high ball drill, so that she can be comfortable with those balls. At about 1:12 in the video, the ball is very high and she is forced to back up a little and hit a safer shot back. You'll see Gasquet do this a lot during match-play.

    It's ironic you posted that video, check out some of that coaches other videos. Some of his coaching techniques, one might call traditional. He has another video where he's teaching a student to stay side on longer on his one-handed backhand and not to open up and pull off of the ball too soon. It's the difference between a solid shot with power and control and a glancing blow that is an unforced error half the time.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2013
  8. 10isfreak

    10isfreak Semi-Pro

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    I think that your response lacks support... Can you show me how long an average two handed preparation lasts when compared to the one handed one? No, but you guessed that it takes longer, strictly speaking of their respective realities.

    Intuitively, however, we can find many players whose FOREHAND take more time to set up than a standard one handed backhand and who still enjoy their greater success on hard courts. Del Potro is a notable example: his forehand take back is very big, very large, very long... but he doesn't excel on clay; he thrives on hard courts. The argument becomes almost ridiculous when you consider that Federer also enjoys his greatest success on hard courts. His game is probably the fastest and most pressuring on the whole tour and virtually no hugs the baseline as often as he does... yet, he doesn't use a two handed backhand. He's also known for his baseline half-volleys and taking the ball early, namely on the backhand side.

    If you noted, Federer has problems on clay against Nadal and plays his best tennis on the fastest courts. Other players like Almagro or Gasquet thrive on clay while having issues on hard courts... You can't make a coherent argument which explains why Federer can't beat Nadal on clay while accounting for Almagro's success and the European tendency to enjoy one handed backhands unless you admit that it's not the fruit of a single cause.
     
  9. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    imo the girl has been taught an obsolete form... text book maybe, but obsolete.

    if you go frame by frame, her racket face is never closed at the power position (borrowing a term from xtsf)... it closes on the way up to meet the ball... this is the definition of a flip... also the 'text book' finish with no wrist release confirms that.

    Stan - face already closed at the power position, therefore he can rip the shot as hard as possible without losing control... his finish with racket tip pointing to the back fence with the face still looking at the same angle as at the power position confirms that.

    this is why most recs struggle with this shot.... they pay $60 - 100/ hour for instruction from some old fart who hit the old text book shot, and then they come into a match and get killed because the shot is flawed.
     
  10. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    i don't think support is needed.... you can hit open stance 2hbh by default... and you only hit 1hbh open stance in emergency...

    open stance = less prep time.
     
  11. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    The secret is to notice (without paying for a lesson) what the old fart coach does on a high ball. He probably slices, or moonballs it with some side spin. That is what you should learn from him.
     
  12. FrisbeeFool

    FrisbeeFool Rookie

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    Watch some more of xtsf's video's he teaches the one-handed backhand and I believe he hits one himself. Yes, you are right Stan's great preparation closes his racket face. The girl in the video has good prep as well and she hits a sound backhand. It's not as explosive as Stan's but whose is? She hits the ball better than 99 percent of people at the rec level, and she looks like she has all the fundamentals right.
     
  13. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    or let the ball drop, or take the ball early..... that's what the student will be told to do.......

    oh yeah, with a strike zone from knees to the waist, you better have a good pair of legs lol
     
  14. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    xtsf's stuff is good.

    the girl - good fundamentals in the context of the old style.... with that swing path it's humanly impossible to close the face at the power position.

    hers will hold up against 99%.... problem is it will not if her goals are higher.
     
  15. FrisbeeFool

    FrisbeeFool Rookie

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    Most rec players struggle with the one-handed backhand because they never learned the proper fundamentals. Perhaps you could tell us what the new fundamentals are, and why the old model is flawed.

    You do realize Federer was taught his one-handed backhand by an Australian ex-player and coach with textbook fundamentals right? There will always be older players passing down knowledge of the game to the younger players. No one has reinvented the wheel when it comes to the one-handed backhand.

    The biggest changes in the one-handed backhand I see are with the grip and takeback. No one hits conti any more. Everyone hits eastern. On the takeback they don't take the racket back low any more. They coil and take the racket head back above their hitting hand. Both Wawrinka and the girl in the video hit this way. She prepares like all the modern pros. Early prep, higher takeback than say a McEnroe, but no different than lendl or becker, good coil, compact backswing.

    The preparation on groundstrokes changed decades ago. I know of very few coaches who teach students to take the racket back like Chris Evert or John McEnroe. Players still drive the ball and make clean contact though. Always have always will. The girl in the video looks like she has a good swing-path too me. What is wrong with it. How does it differ from Wawrinka??

    For an older player with a continental grip, their is nothing wrong with the old Chris Evert low take-back. Their stroke won't be quite as up to date and explosive, but they can still hit a sound, effective stroke that way. A couple weeks back I watched McEnroe beat Courrier on the Senior tour. With the antiquated grips and lower takeback, the more old time players have smaller strike-zones, but they compensate by timing the ball well: either backing up or taking the ball early.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2013
  16. 10isfreak

    10isfreak Semi-Pro

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    A low slice is still hard to volley, even for a 5.5 player. It's low and it can have some pace to it... given the distance, the time he has to react is short and he needs a clean shot to avoid being passed off the second stroke. The basic principle of managing a passing shot situation is to keep it low. Slicing may even induce a few mistakes early on as people are rarely used to volley these balls. However, a 5.5 might be really good at the net which almost negates the odds of a one stroke passing strategy. You'd really need to force a contact lower than the net cord to ensure yourself an easy passing shot off the second stroke.

    Usually, I would advise people to hit their first stroke right at the incoming player. And it's even better if your shot is not so solid. The idea is to figure out if your opponent can really volley or if he just tries to use the net because it's cool and pros do it too. A slice would be great to test that, even if it's a very average and lazy one, because you can manage to keep it in and force a volley response. As soon as he hits his volley, you'll know if he's used to or if he's not. Good players eat floating puppies and kill them, leaving you no chances of even touching them. They'll privilege placement and their footwork will be well coordinated. Some 5.0 or higher might be bluffing volley skills... you'll spot them right off the bat if you call their bluff on it. Experienced players get a good target and get a low bounce; other people either try to block the ball back or aim for a flashy corner shot, which they often miss. Very good players might also kill you in two shots -- if they do it and it's very clearly a well planned approach, expect them to play it a la Federer, coming forward every now and then.
     
  17. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    the 'old style' is almost an mirror image of the classic fh... addressing the ball with the strings (borrowing Oscar's terminology), staying sidways, swing forward thru the ball, no/little supination, smaller strike zone (knees to about chest high).... it's not flawed in the context of the old equipment, but it is flawed with 100 in2 rackets.

    new style - addressing the ball with the leading edge, swing path is up the ACROSS the ball (therefore stance opens up at impact), supination, bigger strike zone (up to about eye level).

    Federer's bh actually shows subtle shift to the new style from his ps85 days to his frame today.... there are a couple of public vids - his 2001 wimby match vs. Pete, and his junior match vs. Agassi....... he shows less supination back then due to the limitation of the ps85.
     
  18. johnchung907

    johnchung907 Rookie

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    Are we really arguing between a 1-handed backhand drive vs. a two handed backhand drive? 1-handed is definitely a tad bit harder to learn. If you want a rally shot, 2-handed is better for stability reasons. If you want a passing shot, one-handed is recommended. For winners? It really doesn't matter... two handed is easier down the line while the one handed is easier to hit cross-court. Slice: Definitely the one-handed but it's still possible to have great slices if your a two-hander. Volleys: Again the one-hander. I personally use a two-handed backhand for topspin. However, since I'm an all-around player I use the one-handed slice and volley to great effect. For example if I hit an approach shot on the backhand side, I either use a slice or a topspin drive. Both work out really well. I seriously don't know HOW IN THE WORLD PEOPLE EVEN THINK ABOUT USING TWO HANDS AT THE NET!!!! IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO DEVELOP A GREAT NET GAME IF YOU USE TWO HANDS!!!! Just saying. Can you do a drop volley with two hands? No. Can you produce a low skidding volley with two-hands (aka underspin volleys) Not really. Can you do a punching volley. Yes. That's ALL JUST A PUNCHING VOLLEY! Definitely a one-hander for the volleys. Oh and for the half volley? One-hander wins for sure. No contest at all. Even great two-handed backhanders used a one-hander half volley to great effect. Look at federer vs. raonic at madrid. It's amazing!
     
  19. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    FrewMcMillian and GeneMayer would argue a 2hbh volley works at ATP top 4 doubles level.
    That should be good enough for us.
     
  20. gregor.b

    gregor.b Professional

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    As Martina N said, 'the two hander is just a more secure shot'.
    I think she is right, especially when it comes to returning a 200kmh + serve.
    I think that is why most coaches teach this shot rather than the 1 hander. Size and strength is also an issue in the juniors.
     
  21. rkelley

    rkelley Hall of Fame

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    McEnroe is still playing great tennis, but honestly I'd be surprised if he could legitimately take a set off Courier unless he hasn't been hitting much. Courier might have let Mac have a few too many opportunities to look good, and then couldn't pull out the set. Perhaps it was best for the business that Mac take one once in awhile. Maybe Mac really did it. I don't know, but generally Courier has the pace to break Mac's game.
     
  22. FrisbeeFool

    FrisbeeFool Rookie

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    Again, they key changes are in the takeback and prep. That happened decades ago in the 80's. Watch video of Lendl and Becker hitting topspin backhands. Wawrinka Uses an eastern grip and hits through the ball. Watch this video. Look at the side view. Watch how long his follow-through is and how far in front of him he follows through.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f97Krt-SnTM

    Notice how the coach emphasizes early prep, good follow through, taking the ball early, and going forward and hitting the ball in front of his body. Listen to his coach, not internet denizens.

    Stan himself says he thinks about taking the ball early and stays with the ball. HE SAYS HE FOCUSES ON STAYING WITH THE BALL he doesn't pull away from the ball too early. How would he be hitting 100 mph groundies if he were pulling off the ball or using a glancing blow. Everything about this stroke is clean, solid, repeatable, and predictable.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2013
  23. TheCanadian

    TheCanadian Semi-Pro

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    For women, probably. But the one-hander has more versatility and Henin did a pretty good job dominating women's tennis for a while.
     
  24. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    I think you're dreaming.
    Courier is younger than Mc, that's all.
    Sampras had trouble with Mac. So did Stich, Lendl, and a host of big guys.
    One or two hands, if you can't do it, you can't do it.
     
  25. FrisbeeFool

    FrisbeeFool Rookie

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    Watch the senior tour. He competes with the guys with the more modern take-backs. The most important part of the groundstroke is making clean contact. All the modern players still do this, and so do the older guys like mac.
     
  26. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I think many club players today started using too much spin compared to their inherent abilities. Play with some of the older players, and at least they make solid contact with the ball. If you cannot do that, you can cover it up a little with spin, but it is going to come out sooner or later.
     
  27. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    early prep, clean contact, staying with ball etc.... that's a gimme for any shot.

    I am pointing out the intrinsic flaw in the old style, in the fact that you can't hit above chest without flipping.

    up and ACROSS is not glancing blow... WW FH is up and across also.

    why is this so hard for people to get it.... WW FH is widely accepted, why is the 1hbh any different?

    who is the poster child of the new generation 1hbh? Dimitrov

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uVCOQY50OA

    is his any different from lendl, edberg, sampras, becker? it will take a blind person not to see it.
     
  28. BevelDevil

    BevelDevil Hall of Fame

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    I noticed this too. Something similar with South America, I wonder?

    My guess is that they grip the racket correctly

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IurGIKVFKQ#t=0m18s


    Maybe on ROS, but for normal groundies the 1hbh preparation should be totally integrated into your movement. So as long as you can step towards the ball, you can hit it.

    Btw, one advantage the 1hbh has is hitting on-the-run.


    I agree with you. I think most the 1hbh videos by 'gurus' are terrible. Mainly because they teach the wrong grip that doesn't allow a clean shot on a high ball. This is probably because they learned from the "textbook" a long time ago and the game has changed faster than the textbook.



    True about fundamentals, BUT the modern pro stroke is different from the "textbook"/"old farts" in a few key ways.

    1. Most important is grip. Too many books/videos/pics encourage the use of an Eastern "pistol" grip, where the player is holding the racket like a steak knife.

    Pros, on the other hand, tend to hold the handle more like the handlebars on a mountain bike, with their fingers more bunched together and with their heelpad further behind the handle. The gives the grip a more "extreme" feel.

    Do an internet comparison of textbook "eastern grips" and what the pros actually do. There's usually a huge difference.

    Also look at the link I posted above, which shows the grip I'm talking about.

    I think most the problems with high balls that rec players have come from a bad grip.


    2. Shoulder turn. Textbook says shoulders should always be perpendicular to the net at contact (and probably at follow through). But the players with some of best backhands (especially on high balls) tend to open up their shoulders significantly. This includes Wawrinka, Gasquet, Haas, Almagro, Henin, and Mauresmo, and more.

    The extra shoulder turn really helps on high balls. I think this is because it flattens the swing trajectory.


    Lastly, Fed does not have a textbook 1hbh. He may have learned textbook, but (like his forehand) it evolved into something completely different:

    Fed doesn't straighten his arm until very late in his swing. This is why he can generate so much rackethead speed from a relatively small motion. This is what gives his 1hbh a "wristy" and "whippy" motion that commentators noticed (and were somewhat suspicious of) when he first came on the scene.

    So Fed's stroke is neither like the textbook nor like other 1-handers.on tour.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2013
  29. FrisbeeFool

    FrisbeeFool Rookie

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    Dimitrov has all the fundamentals. Very similar backhand to Becker. They use the same grip, and have similar prep, contact, and follow-through. What is the "intrinsic flaw in the old style" that you are pointing about obliquely but not describing in a concrete manner???
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2013
  30. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    post #267 and #278
     
  31. FrisbeeFool

    FrisbeeFool Rookie

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    100 percent wrong!!! Wawrinka - Eastern Almagro - Eastern Dimitrov - Eastern Federer -Eastern Youzhny Eastern. Henin and Guga use a more extreme grip. Most coaches teach the one-handed backhand topspin drive with some variant of the eastern backhand grip. No internet denizens comments will change that.

    In my opinion, Wawrinka has the best one handed backhand in the game. This grip is Eastern, nowhere near the extreme variants you see some players using, and he's doing alright. If you were familiar with junior tennis, you would realize that correcting extreme grips is a big problem a lot of coaches deal with.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2013
  32. Vertiz

    Vertiz Rookie

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    1hbh was always more natural for me, and although through fooling around I can now hit a two hander, my one hander is much more natural and frankly, a lot better. Although many people who are stuck with one handers have bad one handers, for some people it is natural and through time/experience/a lot of hardwork it will no longer be a weakness. Frankly I do lose most points off my backhand wing b/c players at the D1 level are able to exploit it well, however it is certainly not a weakness. My forehand is simply better, and I often times hit winners or create opportunities with my backhand. There is no real reason to advocate teaching one or two imo, simply what the kid is more comfortable with. Perhaps the two hander is more suitable for today's baseline game, however it is not so much of an advantage that it's necessary teaching a two over a one. Whilst 90% of the top 100 use two handers, the number 10 and 2 player in the world both use a one hander. The number 2 being the greatest player of all time in my opinion. I always had a one hander, and once I started training seriously at a young age with top coaches in the area, they decided against teaching me a two hander because my one hander was very good. Now if it wasn't so good, and I was clearly struggling with it, a two hander might have been a better idea.
     
  33. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    NOT similar follow-through at all..

    Dimitrov's body language tells you he is not trying to hit thru the ball... he is yanking to the right, resulting in that finish where the racket tip almost hit his upper arm.

    what is the difference between the 3 balls in a row FH and the WW FH? just apply the answer to the bh side.
     
  34. FrisbeeFool

    FrisbeeFool Rookie

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    Best post in the thread. Finally some sanity.
     
  35. FrisbeeFool

    FrisbeeFool Rookie

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    Look at how long his follow through is and how far in front he follows through before the racket comes around. Notice how he extends his opposite arm backwards, in order to inhibit rotation. On forehands players fold the opposite arm in to aid rotation much like a figure skater. You are confusing one-handed forehands and backhands and clearly do not know how to hit a one-handed backhand.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2013
  36. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    about the grip - BevelDevil had a point about the guru's showing the wrong grip etc....

    but... the terminology of eastern/sw/hybrid whatever is not relevant.... the key question is - what is the player trying to do with the ball...

    the grip has to satisfy 2 requirements -

    1) able to close the racket face for the biggest range of ball height... Henin short girl, uses extreme E or SW whatever.... taller guys may use E...

    2) able to provide support from the BOTTOM of the grip so the racket follows the forearm supination.

    the grip is important, but the key is to recognize the difference in the body language between the newer generation players vs. the older.
     
  37. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    you are looking at the wrong thing... do you see supination? do you know what it is?

    don't reach conclusion too early about who doesn't know how to hit 1hbh..

    you don't know what you don't know.
     
  38. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uVCOQY50OA

    pause the video at 0:13

    and show me any of the guys in Mac, Lendl, Edberg, Becker, Sampras has that kind of finish.

    I am just pointing out that the gurus and the old farts are teaching the obsolete way.... and that's why the recs are struggling with this shot...

    they'd have much better luck if they are taught to hit like dimitrov.
     
  39. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Supinated finish, like Fed.
    ClintThompson used it also, as did MOP.
     
  40. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    right - and the list goes on among the pros.

    people have an open mind.... go try this.... you will never get to Dimitrov's finish if you try to make 'clean contact'..... but if you address the ball with the leading edge and yank to the right, you will get there.

    and the result will NOT be a spinny sitter, it will be the most nasty bh you ever hit....
     
  41. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    but but...
    I was raised watching Vilas' backhand, open finish...
     
  42. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    no supination though..... which makes sense with 65in racket.
     
  43. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I paused the video and watched. Dimitrov makes beautiful square clean contact with the ball on the BH.
     
  44. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    yup.... they all make clean contacts.... the question is how you get there..

    and I am saying flipping the face from open to close like this is NOT how you want to teach the juniors.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4i3M9tY-oKE

    if she had a wooden racket, maybe.... but not with a graphite 100 in.
     
  45. Relinquis

    Relinquis Hall of Fame

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    Chardy used it, the backhand slice, as a weapon against Seppi yesterday. It was one of his main strategies. Worth checking out for anyone who wants a demonstration of how it's used in a rally.

    I love how unequivocal your responses are. Perfect for arguing on the internet, but not so for an enlightening discussion.

    Check out the video you posted of the pros at the US Open:
    - Stanislas hits at least one open stance backhand with no issues
    - Gasquet is able to take several small positioning steps on so many of those backhands that it is almost a tutorial on how much time you have to set up properly.
    - Thirdly, there is the argument that the reach advantage of the single-hander and the ability to hit closed stance (cross-court and down the line) means that the single-hander is superior when hitting on-the-run, exactly the emergency situation where one doesn't have time to set up.
    - Returns of serve are done open stance generally. There is no issue doing this with a one hander.
     
  46. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    ok.... 1hbh is basically a left handed ww fh, if your face grows on the back of your head and your nipples and belly button grows on your back lol

    so, your power comes from the back muscles.... trying to do that with feet line being open is just awkward... i saw gasquet hit a bunch, but that is when he is on the run.

    2hbh, is a left handed fh, without having to move your face/nipples around lol... so you can have open feet and just yank it with your left arm.
     
  47. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

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    Who, loads of new replies to my old thread - love it! Sadly haven't had time to read them all as I'm at Les Petit AS in Tarbes watching the world's best u14's rip 1 handed backhands!

    Will read through when I can!
     
  48. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    An ATP slice backhand works just fine because he can back it up with a toppspin passing shot anytime, and his feet are quick enough to allow him to choose inside out forehand OR backhand topspin.
    No so for the rest of us.
     
  49. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    You mean the front shoulder
     
  50. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    shoulder is a joint... it provides range of motion, but not power.

    power comes from stretched muscles.... in this case the back muscles.
     

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