Skipping crosses

Discussion in 'Stringing Techniques / Stringing Machines' started by Shroud, Sep 24, 2013.

  1. Shroud

    Shroud Hall of Fame

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    I want to string my pog at 14x9 by skipping every other cross string.

    Should I compensate by doubling the cross tension?
     
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  2. Andyroo10567

    Andyroo10567 Professional

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    I didnt compensate when i did mine.
     
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  3. Shroud

    Shroud Hall of Fame

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    Interesting. Did you notice the racket bowing? I guess that is the reason I am thinking of upping the tension.

    Also the Pog is alread pretty open at 14x18 so maybe it needs abit more tension?

    What racket did you use? A pog?
     
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  4. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    I wouldn't, but then again I would not skip all those crosses either.
     
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  5. Andyroo10567

    Andyroo10567 Professional

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    Well its not like your skipping more upper/lower crosses, you're doing it evenly if your skipping every other cross. No racquet bowing at all. No distortion. I used a Head YTPP for this. I have a thread lying around here somewhere.
    Doubling the cross tension does more bad than good. Not even sure if a stringing machine can go past 90lbs. If a stringer cant go past 90, neither should a racquet. I.E, 45lb main, 90lb crosses. Think about it realll hard.. Lol..
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2013
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  6. Shroud

    Shroud Hall of Fame

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    Thanks Roo it makes sense.

    FWIW it would only be 62 lbs. Mains are at 32 :)

    Also there IS a report of a 45lb difference in tension:

    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=7610451&postcount=134

    I myself have done a 16lb difference.

    Thanks.
     
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  7. Shroud

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  8. Andyroo10567

    Andyroo10567 Professional

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    Well, he needs to do some work and thinking before doing it. @travlerajm
    Tensioning one part ( cross/main ) much more than the other would just lead to distortion... Besides, tensioning a string 60+ just makes the string lose its feel and it would be completely dead. I guarantee you just doing the same set-up with tension will do you good.
     
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  9. Shroud

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    He already did it. That was a report and in that crazy thread he gives updates. Even adjusted with lead tape due to the bowing effect as tension changed so the swing weight would be the same. So yep you are dead on about the distortion. I saw it a bit on my 40/24lbs experiment, so that is where I have it in my head that I need to adjust the crosses.

    Would you think it would be ok to just do say 32/48 or just 32/32 when skipping. Guess you are saying 32/32 right.
     
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  10. Andyroo10567

    Andyroo10567 Professional

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    32/32 depending on the racquet. Head's usually need extra tension on the crosses because it tends to try turning into a circle when you make the tension for the crosses the same as mains. ( Experience with Radical and Prestige lines. ) 32/42 would be alright. But nothing with a difference more than 10lb.
     
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  11. NE1for10is?

    NE1for10is? Semi-Pro

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    I'm not sure, but I think that skipping every other cross would be considered an illegal stringing.

    I've considered it too, given that you should be able to get more spin without destroying your arm from using needing to use polyester string to get the same spin.
     
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  12. Nuke

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    Why would it be illegal? The rules don't dictate how many strings you must have, and as long as the strings are alternately woven, it should be OK.
     
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  13. gmatheis

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    Yeah, nothing Illegal about this. I believe the density is not allowed to be higher towards the outside of the bed, meaning you can't just skip crosses in the center but not at the top and bottom.

    a. The hitting surface, defined as the main area of the stringing pattern bordered by the points of entry of the strings into the frame or points of contact of the strings with the frame, whichever is the smaller, shall be flat and consist of a pattern of crossed strings connected to a frame and alternately interlaced or bonded where they cross. The stringing pattern must be generally uniform and, in particular, not less dense in the centre than in any other area.
     
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  14. NE1for10is?

    NE1for10is? Semi-Pro

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    Here's a long discussion on Tennis Warehouse University about the results using a 10x16 pattern where every other cross is skipped at 60 lbs and 30 lbs. He also says the pattern is legal, so I stand corrected.

    http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/spinandstiffness.php
     
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  15. Shroud

    Shroud Hall of Fame

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    Thanks everyone. Will let you know how it turns out.

    Thanks for the link. had seen that before but wasnt looking to really do anything like I am now so its timely.
     
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  16. Shroud

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    Oh and NE1for10s, how come they just have the racket being slapped around by the ball in that link. WOnt that just change things. For instance the racket doesnt behave the same way an actual hit would right.
     
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  17. SonRK

    SonRK Rookie

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    Hey everyone, I was about to make a new topic, BUT since I saw this literally at the top, it may be silly.

    I currently use the Prince Speedport Tour. 97 square inches and a 16x18 pattern. I recently demoed the Steam 99s, and wow, so much spin! Felt good, and almost made me considered switching if I didn't pick up like 7 speedport tours over the years because I find them cheap here on the Classifieds, or fleabay.

    Anyways, I heard of some people skipping crosses in their Wilson Blades, or like this topic, that the guy says he's gonna do a 14x9 or something.

    What if I don't wanna do anything that extreme? Like make it more 16x14 or something. Skip 4 crosses in alternate fashion in the middle, or is that going to SUPER stress the racquet and I would have to do a 16x9 pattern instead?

    This seems that I HAVE to skip the whole way actually. Ughhh...that sounds way too open
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2013
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  18. Andyroo10567

    Andyroo10567 Professional

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    If your ever going to skip crosses, spread out the stress equally. Either skip every 2nd cross, 3rd cross and so on. Make sure there is a pattern. Or you can just skip the first and last cross.
     
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  19. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    Because of the O ports you would have to skip two crosses at a time stringing every third cross. Skipping four crosses in the middle won't work and it is illegal. Good thing you have a lot of racket because if you try this I think you're going to need them.

    But then again with the O ports you can easily put in more than one string. Rather than having a 16x18 you could have a 24x18. Making the center super super dense and stiff and it should give you more spin. As the crosses will need to go between the two mains (which you will have to twist to keep them interlaced the center 8 mains will stick out twice as far as the crosses will have little or no bend at all in the center. Sort of like the spaghetti pattern with interlacing. Since the mains are super stiff and stick out twice as far you should get a lot of spin.

    Remember you don't get anything for nothing any more.

    EDIT: And if you want to skip the top and bottom crosses in addition to stringing every third cross you will have to tie off the short side on the wrong side.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2013
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  20. Clintspin

    Clintspin Semi-Pro

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    I am not an engineer but it would seem to me that you would want to change the tension in the crosses somewhat.

    Everybody in this thread has been saying they wouldn't up the tension in the crosses and even the TW Professor kept the same tension between the mains and crosses. To me that seems very stressful on the racquet. Say you do as the OP wants to and strings the pattern as a 14x9 at 50lbs. That would be 700lbs of pressure pulling the the head and throat but only 450lbs pulling from the sides. I am not saying double the tension but at least bring it up enough to reduce the lopsided effect.

    I recently did this with a Jack Kramer Autograph wood. I strung all of the mains (18) at 50lbs and strung the crosses at between 60-63lbs using the first 4 crosses normally, then skipping a cross until stringing the last 6 crosses normally to give the racquet 14 crosses in the end. A pattern of 18x14.

    Yes it is illegal but it is for my fun and experimentation not USTA match play. I have only had the chance to hit the wall with it. I will not really know the results until I hit the court. It felt nice against the wall. Very stable. It hasn't hurt the racquet and I don't think it will although I am going to change it after I play with it on court for a few hours.
     
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  21. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    BTW you can't do that with O Ports and if you could it would be illegal as it would be denser on the outside.

    EDIT: You can't do a 16x9 either with O ports. You only two options are 16x18 or 16x6 unless you want to start skipping string at the top and/or bottom only.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2013
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  22. SonRK

    SonRK Rookie

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    I use string hole grommets, so it shouldn't be an issue about forced skips because of the weird O port issues. I just like my racquet to have holes for better aerodynamics :p
     
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  23. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    Skip every other cross then and see what happens. I would almost bet dollars to doughnuts that unless you don't hit the ball very hard you rip through the grommets pretty quick. Chances are you will rip them out stringing the racket.

    EDIT: Just to make a quick test start your crosses on the wrong side and see what happens.
     
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  24. SonRK

    SonRK Rookie

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    This might make sense actually. I know I have to place the racquet on the stringer with the P of the buttcap right side up. Otherwise I will break a grommet once it goes in for tensioning. It's happened to me several times on several speedport tours when I been careless.
     
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  25. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    Yes that will do it. You must keep your short side on the left assuming you do not use the short side to run in the top cross. Just remember this point the short side must tie off on the short side no matter where it is. If you use the short side on the wrong side and you have enough string rather than starting over just use the short side to run in the top cross and tie off.
     
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  26. NE1for10is?

    NE1for10is? Semi-Pro

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    Perhaps, but I think they're trying to examine the hit in a scientific and objective manner, with as few variables as possible, so they can measure the differences in string, stringing pattern or string tension, and keep things like angle and force of impact the same.
     
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  27. Shroud

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    Fair enough but why not just keep the racket solid more like it would be on a shot than let it bounce back?

    Anyhow thanks for the link.
     
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  28. unorthodox stringing

    unorthodox stringing Rookie

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    Hey Shroud,

    My recommendation to double the crosses tension was inspired by a post by travlerajm somewhere on this forum. I can't find that post now though :oops:

    I've tried many variants of skipping crosses. Most are posted on my blog. My last attempt was in July2013 stringing 16x10 on a PK Black Ace98. You can read about it at the link below:

    http://unorthodoxstringing.blogspot.sg/2013/07/prokennex-black-ace-98-syn-gut-16x10.html

    Here's a caution before you attempt it, especially if it is on a sub-300g frame:

    http://unorthodoxstringing.blogspot.sg/2013/08/a-word-of-caution.html


    Without doubling the crosses tension, control was totally lost. It was unplayable. Yet I was afraid of cracking the frame, that's why I used proportional stringing on the mains so that the doubled crosses tension would not be too high.
     
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  29. unorthodox stringing

    unorthodox stringing Rookie

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  30. Shroud

    Shroud Hall of Fame

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    Thanks a ton for posting!

    I was with you but not sure what you mean by "proportional stringing". I think that means differential in tension but then you say so the tension wouldnt be too high----and then string at 80lbs!

    I think I missed something somewhere right?
     
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  31. unorthodox stringing

    unorthodox stringing Rookie

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    Shroud, you are most welcome! :)

    Let me explain....

    Assume the racket in question has a 16x18 stringing pattern.

    Conventional stringing at 50lbs would mean:
    16 mains x 50 lbs each = 800 lbs vertical frame stress
    18 crosses x 50 lbs each = 900 lbs horizontal frame stress

    (Note: A lot of complications have been simplified)

    If you skip 9 crosses, then:
    9 crosses x 50 lbs each = 450 lbs horizontal frame stress

    Naturally, the racket get squashed and becomes shorter, maybe from 27" to 26.5". That's why I recommended doubling crosses tension when you skip about half the number of crosses.

    To equalize pressure:
    9 crosses x 100 lbs each = 900 lbs horizontal frame stress

    Proportional stringing is to vary the tension according to the length of the string. There are many many variants of proportional stringing, but conventionally, if I string a 10" length of string at say 100 lbs, then a 9" length of string should be pulled at 90 lbs.

    We start with the mains. And by using proportional stringing, we reduce the total mains stress. So for the crosses, instead of doubling it to 100 lbs (in above example), it can be much less, maybe "only" 70-80 lbs?

    :grin:
     
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  32. Shroud

    Shroud Hall of Fame

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    Nice. That makes sense and have often thought it was something like that.

    But did I read that right?? DIfferent tension for EACH string? Based on the string length?? Wow. That is super tedious. Reminds me of my EX. :)

    How do you calculate the tension? For instance I do the mains and crosses at 32 for my normal string job. Do I measure the length of each main and adjust DOWN? Or UP from the longest string. I think by your post it would be DOWN right?

    Thanks unorthodox! I might be partial to unorthodox methods!!!
     
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  33. unorthodox stringing

    unorthodox stringing Rookie

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    Yes, different tension for each string.

    From my experiments, proportional stringing (PS) does not work with ELT. Every string at 32lbs plays good enough.

    At more conventional tensions like 50s or 60s, the magic of PS really stands out. The sweetspot widens. So far, all of my friends who tested PS found a much larger sweetspot.

    Just run a google on PS and you can see the many variants I mentioned. I always adjust down from the longest center mains. Some use length, some use frequency.

    All the commercial stringers I spoke with played down and even rejected PS. No surprise since many don't even play tennis. And the complications of PS takes just too much time. That's where a personal machine comes in handy! ;)
     
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  34. Shroud

    Shroud Hall of Fame

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    Since this is my thread well I am ok with it going off the rails!!

    I am thinking that one day I will go back to normal tensions. It might not happen as I like ELT and it does have some advantages and is arm friendly.

    Though would your assessment of PS in regard to ELT change at all with a stiff main like the Kevlar I use?

    Oh and you reminded me of a conversation I had with my stringer before I got ****ed at the pricing and bought my own setup. (they were charging me gut prices for a kevlar/gut hybrid and actually told people they were ripping me off which I over heard- really glad it happened!!). He was telling me of a player that wanted different tension for each string, but the stringer was definitely not having that and did downplay it saying that tension would equalize. Which I kind of buy but not 100%
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2013
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  35. unorthodox stringing

    unorthodox stringing Rookie

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    If you prefer, you can email me instead :)

    ELT is really nice. But that restless inquisitive nature in me just wants to keep exploring other setups.

    With Kevlar, I found there is an initial stretch. The amount varies according to brands. After this initial stretch, it is very stable. I marked two dots on a piece of kevlar and strung it, played with it for months. After it broke, the gap measured only about 0.5mm longer :shock:

    Since there is almost no stretch, PS does not make sense on kevlar. Moreover, the thin and very slippery nature of kevlar does contribute to very rapid evening out of tension. I've never succeeded pulling PS on mains using kevlar even once :oops:

    I have tested PS very thoroughly myself, both in mains and crosses, using all types of strings from gut, syn gut, multi, poly and kevlar. When strung PS on mains, I've even measured the frequency string by string immediately after stringing and after more than 10 hours of play (after cutting out crosses). After accounting for overal tension loss, the evening out is very minor. I think I seriously underestimated the amount of grommet friction.

    You can take a look on my blog again on the red line i've marked:
    http://unorthodoxstringing.blogspot.sg/2012/12/rw5800-poly-syn-gut-48-65-46-65-16x14.html

    http://unorthodoxstringing.blogspot.sg/2013/01/rw5800-poly-syn-gut-48-40-43-40.html
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2013
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  36. Shroud

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  37. Chezbeeno

    Chezbeeno Semi-Pro

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    This is semi-unrelated, but I didn't know where else to post and I didn't wanna start a new thread. I'm short of string and can only string the 18th cross on my RF97, is it ok to just tie off after the 18th? Or would that cause any damage?
    My RF's are my family...
     
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  38. 1HBHfanatic

    1HBHfanatic Semi-Pro

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    this thread is perfect for your question
    to asnwer your question: your idea will work fine and it should play ok; but not recomended;
    the manufacturer will tell you that if you skip any cross not intended to be skipped, you forfit the warranty
    this thread is for people who are taking that risk in hand and wanna go OFF-RAIL, for experimentation purposes only
    fun experiment, but stress on the frame and the grommets are hughe, proceed at your own risk..
    btw just 10lb diff from mains/crosses cause a "softframe" of mine to turn into a round shape, haha
     
    #38
  39. Chezbeeno

    Chezbeeno Semi-Pro

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    Thanks for the response! I'm not particularly interested in voiding my warranty, and to be safe I just restrung it properly. I'm on a college team and we have virtually unlimited string, so it wasn't too big of a deal...haha.
     
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