slice serve - pronate or no pronate?

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by luvforty, Mar 3, 2013.

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slice serve - pronate or not?

  1. yes, pronate

    45 vote(s)
    71.4%
  2. no pronate

    18 vote(s)
    28.6%
  1. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    So, does anyone here have a good slice serve, and tell us if full pronation is used, or mild pronation, or no pronation?
    I hit top/slice serves, a different animal, with moderate pronation and a small grip change from pure flat first serves.
     
  2. GuyClinch

    GuyClinch Hall of Fame

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    Pronation is used - most of it happens after contact though.
     
  3. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    Let’s analyze following pictures of Serena Williams flat and slice serves.

    [​IMG]

    Before contact pictures are practically identical.

    [​IMG]

    After contact there are huge differences. In case of the flat serve the arm is in maximum ISR and forearm pronation position, but the wrist ulnar/radial deviation is neural. The slice serve shows almost no change in ISR & forearm pronation, but the wrist moved from maximum radial to maximum ulnar deviation.
    So, in case of slice serve Serena uses extremely hard the wrist ulnar deviation and practically doesn’t care about arm pronation, but for flat serve she does opposite.:)
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2014
  4. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    No question that her head has rotated, but it is not clear if her eyes are still looking up at the at the ball immediately prior to contact. I've looked at other slow-mo videos of Stosur. In all of them, she is looking at the ball/contact point when she is at the big (inverted) L. This is when her racket arm is pretty much fully extended and the racket forms a right angle to her arm. In some of the videos, it appears that her head has turned to such a degree at contact that she is no longer looking the ball/cp. In other videos, she appears to keep her gaze up at/near contact. She does not pull her head down the way that Roddick does shortly after the big L.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqG8jvmqiDs
    .
     
  5. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    I found that videos from the side are necessary to best see whether the server is looking up at the ball at impact because you can't see the face. At the big L I agree that most servers are still looking up and can see the ball. I have more videos and believe that I may have a few where Stosur has her head to the side. I can post a few if you are interested.

    Look at the side view videos in my collection - all the thumbnails are at impact so you can get an idea without viewing the video. Most show that at impact the servers would have to be looking through their eyebrows to see the ball. Try looking up at a large angle at a racket.
    https://vimeo.com/user6237669/videos

    If you want to examine the videos in more detail stop action single frame on Vimeo -- hold SHIFT KEY and use the RIGHT or LEFT ARROW KEYS.

    [​IMG]

    I interpret frames such as this to mean they the server cannot see the ball.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2014
  6. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    ^ It does not appear that you saw my completed post above.

    In the Stosur link that I posted, it appears that she is trying to keep her eyes up on the ball/cp as she is making contact even tho' her head has rotated. Whether she can actually see the exact moment of contact is of less importance. It is more important to note that she attempts to keep her eyes on the ball at/near contact (and she succeeds in keeping her eyes on the ball very close to contact). I've studied the Sampras, Federer, and Sharapova in depth. Their eyes appear to be on the cp at or very near contact.

    [​IMG]

    Again, not that important if they can see the actual contact. I believe that it is best for most mere mortals to keep the eyes up close to contact. It is not that easy for most of us to serve consistently if we pull the head/eyes down early as Roddick and others do.
     
  7. Bobs tennis

    Bobs tennis Rookie

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    I've noticed lately in watching many slow videos that on many serves the ball has already left the racket when the palm turns out(This vid is probably clearer) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpyDxn4sH7E[/url]
     
  8. Essential Tennis

    Essential Tennis Rookie

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    Pronation is used on every pro level serve, period. I'll be coming out with a new video very soon showing the differences between flat, kick, and slice serves using detailed footage of American pro player Tim Smyczek. I had him hit all three types of serves to all three main targets (T, body and wide) from both the deuce and ad side while I filmed him from both directly behind and directly to the side. The comparisons are extremely interesting :)
     
  9. Essential Tennis

    Essential Tennis Rookie

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    One thing I'll add (and I admit I didn't read prior posts), if your definition of "pronation" is: "the strings must be facing flat to the right immediately after contact" then my above statement is incorrect.

    If by "pronation" you mean: "internal rotation of the forearm" then pronation does in fact occur on every type of serve. The overall direction that the arm and racquet is moving is different depending on what type of spin is being attempted, but the forearm still pronates.
     
  10. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    A little confusing. Are some posters defining pronation in this manner? Pronation for the serve should only refer to a rotation of the forearm, not ISR. Pretty sure that both forearm pronation and ISR are happening on all serves (not just ISR).
     
  11. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    Ian

    Why not use the proper term for the motion that contributes the most to racket head speed - internal shoulder rotation(ISR)?

    If readers look up pronation they will be misled. Pronation and ISR are defined properly on the internet but tennis usage is most often not correct.

    Of course, there is pronation but it is hard to see leading up to impact while the ISR is very easy to see by the axial rotation of the elbow bones. Pronation is easy to see in the follow through.

    Your videos are widely viewed, please consider this unfortunate issue of properly identifying the joint motions.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2014
  12. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    We have discussed before in another thread.

    I would like to have reliable stats on this issue. My own stats, based on side camera views were that the servers were hardly ever looking up at the ball at impact. In most cases, I had to make a judgement based on the angle of the head because I could not see how the eyes pointed. I believe that their heads come down to reduce stress on their necks. This may depend on the server and type serve.

    My observations -
    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=7014182&postcount=9
    Thread
    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=442804

    I agree that they are still looking up very close to impact, within some milliseconds of contact. Tsonga looks up more than the average.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2014
  13. 3fees

    3fees Hall of Fame

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    Some due some dont, pronate the racquet the follow thru is to the right side and left side if hit circular,reverse for lefty


    Cheers
    3Fees :)
     

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