So yesterday, I lost to a crafty older player...

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by Fuji, Oct 14, 2012.

  1. Fuji

    Fuji Legend

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    Hey all,

    I figured some people here might enjoy to hear this, especially in the 50+ crowd. (LeeD, I'm talking to you here!)

    Last night I ate a double bagel against an older, totally crafty and unpredictable player in my 4.0 tournament. Here's the setting for you dramatic folk! I lost my first round match in a heart breaking tie-break on Friday night. Pretty late match and it lasted a while. I'm told I enter the "Lucky Loser's" Consolation draw. Fun! So on Saturday I make it through the round of 16 to the quarter finals! I get a super long break from 12:30 until 4:00pm. It's a long time to sit around, so I chat with some new players and have a generally good and relaxing time. That's when I meet my next opponent. People warned me about him before hand, saying that he's a high ranked doubles player in our facility. I pay no mind to it as this is singles, and obviously no doubles skills transfer over. (Mistake number 1!) I go to introduce myself as I normally do to set up a friendly relationship with a new match partner as we really aren't competing for anything too serious here!

    He's cool as ice. No real emotion and definitely no interest in talking to me. Straight to business as he's obviously done this quite a few times before. Cheerfully I set out to our court as he swiftly leads and proceeds to set up his gear in Nadal like fashion. He definitely has a routine, and he sticks to it. As these are indoor courts, I run a few wind sprints down the hallway to get my blood moving and my legs warmed up. He complains that I've "taken too long and we should just get this over with." Our match is scheduled to start at 4, and it's 3:50. The roaming official is out as on the court next to us is the Women's Open semifinal. That's it.

    We start our 5 minute warm up at exactly 3:55, and this is where the fun begins. I can't get anything back that he's putting out. He's hitting super soft, no rhythm shots and running me ragged off the court. He comes to the net to peel off some of the greatest drop volleys I've ever seen in my life. I knew from this point on I was in for a long day.

    4:00pm rolls around and the official calls time. I elect to receive as I normally do, and this is the only time I've seen him react to anything thus far. He seemed surprised, but not worried, and I soon saw why. His first serve was a perfectly placed slice out wide, half way in the service box. How this angle is possible, is still beyond me. I attempt to ignore it, but on ad, he hits a perfectly placed flat serve out wide, but with little pace. I'm outside the doubles alley returning this my 2HBH, he comes in and peels off a sweet volley into the open court for a clean winner.

    I'm down 1-0 in less then two minutes. He held at love. I figure my slightly bigger serve will help me with a few easy points. I ace him on my first serve, and feeling confident I attempt to do it again. Turns out that was his warm up. He returns my first serve perfectly placed into the corner DTL. He proceeds to pick apart every serve I throw at him with amazing placement, and with little to no pace. By the time I reach a ball, I'm hitting it from my ankles. On my forehand this poses absolutely no issue, and as he soon figures out, he completely eats my backhand for supper.

    I lost 6-0, 6-0, at 4:23. This was by far the fastest and most humiliating match I've ever played. After a complete mental breakdown on court, and ending the match with 3 double faults, I've never been so easily beaten. He left as coolly as he came with a "Thanks for the match" and he was on his way out. I don't even think we went to deuce on any game, as his placement, and net skills were beyond anything I've ever played against before. He played a perfect game to dismantle mine, as he never let me groove, or get my setting in the point. Everything was throwing me off balance with drop shots, painting the lines and corners, and unbelievable angles. I hope I never have to play him again, as I still don't know know what I could do to beat him, almost exactly 24 hours later.

    Needless to say, I no longer doubt the posts that some people make about the crafty older men, and their excellent no pace placement. I say kudos to you, as I don't know what to do to beat you!

    Sorry for the ridiculously long post, but I figured that someone here might get a kick out of hearing how an 18 year old that can run like a gazelle, lost to a middle aged man that barely broke a sweat. :oops:

    -Fuji
     
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  2. AutoXer

    AutoXer Rookie

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    Nice story. I had a similar experience in doubles. We saw our opponents were 30 years older than us. They had knee braces, forearm braces, ankle braces, elbow braces, they had braces for parts I didn't know you had. We looked at these old guys and thought how easy this match was going to be. They were old and couldn't move. They didn't have to. They placed the ball so well that we didn't have any choice in where to return it. They knew by the shot they hit where we would hit it and simply would move there and put away a volley. We were right about it being an easy match though. Double bagel in under 30 minutes. Now when I see old guys with braces, I just cringe.
     
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  3. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Yeah, I mentioned at the end of last year, lost double bagels to a finalist in the men's 65's around here. I've since played him only in doubles, twice, and he seldom get's a point off me, once I figured he was redirecting short, low, skidded balls ONLY. His weakness is high bouncing balls hit to his backhand side, and on his forehand, only guides them low with sidespin.
    He was 67, in fine shape. I was 62, hadn't run in 4 years then.
    Next time you see someone like him, hit loopers to his backhand, make him run forwards with your drop shots, then lob him right at the beginning of the match, to test his running skills. He obviously ate up conventional topspin groundies, so you need to try Plan's B and C.
     
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  4. Fuji

    Fuji Legend

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    I'd love to be able to implement a different plan, but I wasn't able to get my footing at all, I was always on the defensive, trying to make offence out of nothing. Guy was just playing what I would call perfect tennis against mine. I'll definitely have to try more slices, both short and long next time I play someone like this to hopefully give me some more time? He ate whatever high ball I was able to give him.

    -Fuji
     
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  5. Fuji

    Fuji Legend

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    Ouch! Those are always the worst!

    -Fuji
     
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  6. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Yeah, some guys can handle high balls, like your example, and some can handle low balls, but few can handle both.
    There's this old Asian Fart, easy 76, who beats most of the guys at the RoseGardens (talking 4.0) in doubles. He can handle high balls like no tomorrow, slicing them with a high takeback and keeping it low and skidded. He can handle low balls pretty well, too. Unfortunately, he's always ON my team, and only once have I had the pleasure of being on the opposite side.
    I'd think we'd all know of his game, but some guys insist he play on my team...or me on his. Can't imagine why, we're undefeated as a team and hardly ever allow opponent's to get even 2 games.
    He does hate my wide lefty serves (well, he's SEVENTY SIX), and hates even more my wide twists to his forehand, that forces him beyond the doubles alley.
    Hope he's still around next week, when my shoulder get's better. I've only faced him once total, and look forwards to seeing him again next week. We've been teamed up maybe 10 times.
     
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  7. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    : hands Fuji a steaming mug of hot cocoa :

    I'm sorry, dude. Sounds awful.
     
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  8. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    And the answer, of course, is a rousing, YES, anytime.
     
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  9. Fuji

    Fuji Legend

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    Haha thank you Cindy! It was a pretty rough and humbling experience.

    That match will stick with me for a long time. The worst part was is that we had an audience! :lol: There were still quite a few people staying to watch the Women's Open, and thus got to watch my beat down LOL!

    I'm still trying to formulate a strategy so I at least get on the board next time... Maybe I'll just have to serve like Raonic to get some free points against people like that! Hahahaha!

    -Fuji
     
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  10. OHBH

    OHBH Semi-Pro

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    If the guy hits with no pace how where you not able to set up to the ball? No pace ought to give you more time to set up. Sounds like you should have rushed the net on every point, force him to hit some real shots or lose.
     
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  11. Roforot

    Roforot Professional

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    Tough luck. Have a beer (18's legal in Canada eh?) One day you will be an old crafty dude.
     
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  12. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    Welcome to tennis.
     
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  13. Fuji

    Fuji Legend

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    Definitely a valid point, but I just felt rushed on everything. His placement was so impeccable there wasn't a lot I was able to do. I wish I would have been able to get to the net more, as it would have helped me tremendously. (By no pace, I mean they weren't sitters by any means, but I practice with university players. So their pace is definitely worlds more then this. I really should have been more specific, rather then "no pace" it was very "low pace")

    -Fuji
     
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  14. Fuji

    Fuji Legend

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    Hahaha definitely! That's exactly what I did after!

    -Fuji
     
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  15. timeisonmyside

    timeisonmyside Semi-Pro

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    Sounds like the gamesmanship started in the warm up. Not letting you do wind sprints, and giving you "super soft, no rhythm shots and running you ragged off the court." That's why you weren't able to get your footing during the match.
     
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  16. Fuji

    Fuji Legend

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    Honestly, that came into my mind as well, but I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. I really hope he wasn't doing it, but it does linger that he was. Like he was painting the lines and going for angles right in the warm up, rather then trying to get a steady rhythm going. I would have appreciated a good warm up rather then what I got, but more power to him for playing so well without warming up with me really. He was better prepared then I was!

    Also, I love your Sig. That episode of the Office always makes me laugh!

    -Fuji
     
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  17. SwankPeRFection

    SwankPeRFection Hall of Fame

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    Typical Pusher story man. They never properly warm up and fish for weaknesses/test the waters on how quick you are at getting to shots while the warm up happens. It's ******** and whenever I run into it, I walk off the warmup and say I'm good to go or if they want to continue hit everything off the court and let them fish for balls while I want on the next feed, rinse and repeat. This usually pisses them off quite a bit and sometimes buys you the first few games if you can hit string angle winners. Problem is, Pushers like this are sometimes very patient and relaxed and like to mess with you mentally and this tactic, while not allowing them to fish for info during warmup, doesn't mess with their minds too much. That's usually when the occasional body shot comes into play followed by the "I'm sorry I hit you with that serve that didn't touch the court first, I'm not very good."

    That usually works to **** them off a bit.

    Here's the deal. If you're a legit/cool player who respects the other opponent, you get respect back. One wins, the other loses. A match always ends like this. However, if you're the typical pusher jerk, I'm going to screw with you every chance I get, even if I have to lose, I'm going to make you hate that you played me. I have ZERO respect for hack and slash Pusher guys. I've played plenty of old good players who are just playing me off the courts because they're good. I have no problem losing to an offensive legit player who's outplaying me, but never have these players ever been jerks like what you're describing.
     
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  18. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    Whoever thinks this guy is a pusher is crazy, this guy's a real player. 0-6, 0-6 in a half hour is not losing to a pusher in anyway. The five minute "warm-up" is not for warming-up, it's to find your opponent's weaknesses. The real warm-up should have been done on a practice court beforehand. If I came to the court to play a tennis match and my opponent went jogging on me, I'd be pissed off too. You do that stuff before taking possession of the court. Real players don't chit-chat with their opponent's, they don't even look at their faces. You may not have thought the match meant anything but it meant ranking points for him.
     
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  19. timeisonmyside

    timeisonmyside Semi-Pro

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    Lol thanks! Too bad that show jumped the shark big time.
     
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  20. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    I think it would of pissed off the "pusher" more to lose than winning with you screwing with him while he beat you.
    Some guys pusher or not are jerks. Best to beat them and move on. A real rec hack and slash type are easy to beat after your tennis is developed enough. This guy Fuji faced is beyond a typical hack by the posting.
     
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  21. North

    North Professional

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    Oooh. Not a good loss - sorry about that.

    You said this was a consolation match so I guess he lost to someone. Can you find out what his winning opponent did to beat him?

    I've had the same happen to me; in the blink of an eye, I was demolished lol. But it just made me want to play that opponent (and people just like him) again and again till I finally figured it out. One of the things I did was watch that opponent (and similar others) till I saw what gave him trouble - it was easier to see and absorb when I wasn't right in the middle of the bewildering beat down.

    Don't avoid him. Do your homework, find out what you need to do to against this guy, and practice doing it over and over. It is oh so sweet when you finally do beat a nemesis like this and I must confess to a guilty pleasure when I see that confused pissed-off look in the eyes of someone who used to beat me handily, after I have just wiped the court with them. All the better if the opponent is something of a jerk like this guy sounds.
     
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  22. sundaypunch

    sundaypunch Hall of Fame

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    To many kids, anyone that doesn't hit as hard as they can is a pusher. The OP made it very clear that this was a skilled player that basically toyed around with him on the court.

    Some people just can't give credit to an older player that uses angles and finesse (not referring to the OP).
     
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  23. Mongolmike

    Mongolmike Professional

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    That is a humbling experience... but not knowing you, or not having watched the match, you give a few clues about some minor things that may be important FOR YOU down the line...

    Losing two sets in 23 minutes and 3 double faults to end the match says to me that you were rushed or feeling rushed.

    It might not have changed the outcome in this match, but for future matches you might want to monitor how quickly you are jumping into points when you are losing. You get a set amount of time to gather yourself between points and during changeovers. No gamesmanship here, just suggesting you use the time wisely to focus/re-focus.

    Think about your serve motion/swing speed/serve direction/ how you will follow up your serve etc as you adjust your strings before you serve, or as you bounce the ball. And on changeovers or even as you go to retrieve balls, think tactics. What should you be doing different to change the course of the match? Where does it look like your opponents has a weakness?

    Slow down a little. Breathe. Think. Don't let yourself get rushed, even if you are down 0-6 0-4. You are allowed time. Use it to refocus.
     
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  24. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    AMEN!.....
     
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  25. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Why would you run ragged during the warm-up? Just ignore the balls that he is sending out of your reach.
     
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  26. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I am suspicious about a 4.0 who can hit out-wide serves with perfect placement from both courts, hits every service return perfectly deep, and paints the lines and produces unbelievable angles.

    Is this a 5.0 sandbagger? Someone who played college tennis and has just softened his strokes to expend less energy as he got older?
     
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  27. Fuji

    Fuji Legend

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    Honestly I've never met the guy before this instance, but I do know he plays LOTS of doubles, and I believe he has been club champion a few times. Maybe those are just skills he's refined over the years, but as someone else noted, this was consolation so he definitely did lose to someone in the main draw.

    -Fuji
     
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  28. Fuji

    Fuji Legend

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    Definitely good points, those are all things that happened to me. I have a feeling that especially in the 2nd set, I was just burning through my service games feeling really rushed and out of place. It's definitely a lesson for next time though, thanks a lot of the tips!

    -Fuji
     
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  29. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Interesting and timely for me, because yesterday I barely squeaked past a guy in his 60s who hits flat with no topspin, and plenty of slicing and drop shots. He is a regular league and ladder player in 4.0 singles and plays 4 days a week as he is semi-retired. I won the first set and after 3 games in the second, he said he wanted to leave as it had been a hour and a half in the midday sun. Out of the 13 games we had played, I had won 7.

    I think the basic key is fitness and taking your time. He was running me back and forth with drops and lobs, but I did a walk-about after such points to catch my breath (though not to Nadalian extents).
     
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  30. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Even pros cannot slice out wide from the center of the service box on demand all the time. And they cannot paint the lines that easily. Even a slight variation in string tension can put the balls long, unless they are compensating for it already. Something fishy about this guy.
     
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  31. SwankPeRFection

    SwankPeRFection Hall of Fame

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    Disagree, that's not the time to be hitting dropshots and crap like that to see if your opponent can get to it. Using that time to do crap like this is usually what characterizes the cheap shot hackers. It's one thing to hit balls back and forth from the baseline, volley, etc. to each wing and see if the opponent can hit back from that side, it's a completely different thing to use that time to offensively hit balls in order to expose a weakness. That's not warming up. It's somewhat cheating because you've now bought yourself 5 minutes of drilling a player when you should be using the first game or two to figure that out. As I said, GTFO.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2012
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  32. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    Something's fishy alright, but it's not this champ's game--it's the absurdity of the NTRP rating system that matches an 18 year old against a 50 year old for anything besides bragging rights at the club bar. That's why Chris Evert doesn't play against Serena Williams at the USO anymore.
     
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  33. SwankPeRFection

    SwankPeRFection Hall of Fame

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    Not sure I understand what you mean by this, but in my area it's fairly popular for older guys to start complaining that they need to move down .5 NTRP levels because they're all old and achy. That's BS. If you're a 4.5 or a 5.0, moving slower doesn't give you the right to move down. At that level, your strategy and strokes are strong enough to keep you from being run around ragged. A lot of times I see high level players put in medical appeals and get them only to run nothing but a string of easy wins in the lower ranks. It's shameful that people have to do this to feel good about themselves. I've always been one to play up rather than down. I'd rather have a bad win/lose record and enjoy player harder tennis than have nothing but wins and be bored at the lower levels, but I guess whatever floates your boat.
     
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  34. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Isn't the Chrissie-Serena analogy just the opposite of what happened here?
     
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  35. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    No problem, I seldom understand what I'm saying either. The guys who figured out the five year increments for Senior Tennis a long time ago knew what they were doing. The kid was in a consolation round and the club champ probably viewed it as a little practice. He was playing an inexperienced kid who was not familiar with the real tournament routine. The club champ just wanted to get it over with ASAP, take the kid out of his misery and get out on the golf course.

    Senior Tennis should be renamed Master's Tennis and it would probably see a revival rather then losing tournament venues every year. "SENIOR" anything is a pajorative these days and especially in Kali where it's a crime to get old. I'm sure that's why the women's events get so few participants because no women want's to have anything to do with being called a "senior". Rename it Master's Tennis like Master's Swimming and it will probably attract a lot more players.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2012
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  36. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    People also don't get that retired and semi-retired people simply play more. And probably hit the gym more too. I know some who play two hours every day and 4 hours each on Sat and Sun. Heck, that is more than some pros do. Why would these people not be better than a working stiff who plays for 1 hour twice a week?
     
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  37. goober

    goober Legend

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    Since they were playing in the losers bracket this older guy already lost. So unless he lost to another even better sandbagger I highly doubt it.

    My most likely guess is the OP is probably a 3.5 level player, but thinks of himself as 4.0+ because he hits with university players that are 4.5+.
     
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  38. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Or perhaps the old guy is such a good sandbagger that he lost on purpose to the eventual winner :)

    Even if he was truly a 4.0, don't you think double bagel is a little fishy against a 3.5?
     
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  39. goober

    goober Legend

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    No- a blow score against someone a level below you is expected. 6-0, 6-0 scores are not common, but I bet it is mostly due lack of tournament match play on the part of the OP and being completely not use to his style of play. If these two played again tomorrow it will not be another double bagel probably something closer to 6-2, 6-3.
     
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  40. NLBwell

    NLBwell Legend

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    Yes, the old guy lost to someone. Probably someone who could attack the old guy's weaknesses. Someone with enough power to overpower him or someone with enough speed and anticipation to take the shots in the corners and return them back effectively and make him uncomfortable.
     
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  41. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Match results like this are not such anomalies as you'd think.
    There's always one very big unmentioned factor.
    In this case, Fuji has mentioned several times over the past 2 months that he was injured and hadn't practiced as of late. Possibly 4 months.
    This contributes a huge amount when the sides are even, and one player uses a wierdo game that is counter to what is being practiced by university level and age players.
    OP is probably a 4.5-5 level player when he's IN FORM, in good shape, and mentally tough playing a modern player.
    But OP had been injured for most of this past summer, hadn't played regularly, and the cobwebs fresh in his mind.
    Match tough, I'd bet the outcome going the opposite way.
     
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  42. nyc

    nyc Hall of Fame

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    +1

    Tennis is not only about power, but also about strategy.
    If you're struggling with an opponent, don't just hit harder, faster. Try to figure out a winning strategy, and slow down, take time and most importantly take the foot of the gas a bit. Hitting at 80% pace sometimes does wonders to your UE stats (and I'm NOT talking about pushing here)

    23 minutes for a double bagel tells me you rushed to that result mostly yourself out of frustration and disbelief.
     
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  43. goober

    goober Legend

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    Fuji did not mention he was hampered by injury or out of form. He is 18 not middle aged. Young dudes heal quickly and get back into form quickly. Seniors not so much.

    Sorry legit 4.5-5.0 players will never lose to a 4.0 old dude in singles 6-0, 6-0. It is not going to happen. The fact that he lost in the first round (presumabley against a more conventional opponent) and the old dude also lost, makes me convinced he is closer 3.5. A 4.5-5.0-lol no way. Maybe in the future, but not now. AN out of form 4.5-5.0 player would completely rock a 4.0 tournament.
     
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  44. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    I recently lost 2 & 2 to an overweight 60yo in 4.5 singles.

    Before the match I thought I would crush him. His movement was quite poor.

    But once we started... basically anything he could get a racquet on, he would hit a winner off. I could barely return any of his serves. Adequate power, but more importantly, every serve perfectly placed in a corner. On my serve, he stood in and took it early. I served a bunch of aces. But when not an ace, the guy had amazing racquet control and could make every return deep and hard into a corner.

    After the match he told me he was a former D1 player and was ranked top 5 NCAA many many years ago.
     
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  45. Fuji

    Fuji Legend

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    I just wanted to add in here, yes I am a 4.0 player. I play in 4.0 league with good results. As LeeD pointed out, I have struggled with injuries this past summer although this definitely isnt an excuse for that bad of a loss.

    Also, here we do not have .5 increments of ratings in tournaments. It goes from 4.0 to 5.0. In 4.0 tournaments we have have 4.00 to 4.99 players. Obviously this can be seen as a flaw in our system, and I believe I ran into a player obviously in the upper end of 4.0.

    -Fuji
     
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  46. sportsfan1

    sportsfan1 Hall of Fame

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    1,858
    This establishes (yet again) that placement and control are way more important - atleast at the rec level - than power.
    Similar story - I once went to a court and saw an old guy volleying against the wall, and neither was missing anything ;-). That should have been my sign to turn back, but I did go ahead and ask for a hit. I was hitting with way more power (and better shots arguably) but he would get everything back. If I turned on more power, the dude would hit back with more angles. And if he got to the net, he had great anticipation. I wasn't getting any passing shots by him unless it was the most perfect inside out shot with crazy power way beyond his BH (of course if I could hit those all day, I would be a 5.0 perhaps!). Everything else came back with placement out of my reach - lobs returned back, shots at or next to him volleyed back.

    I play to hit good shots- e.g if I get a slow and short ball at the net to the BH side, I won't run around it, I will try hit a fancy 1HBH shot - so I will always get beat by a consistent player. But this was a whole different level of beat.
     
    #46
  47. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2008
    Messages:
    37,229
    Location:
    East side of San Francisco Bay
    If you play long enough, and enough matches, you WILL encounter that old fart who guides the ball effortlessly just out of your comfort zone, over and over again, until you basically give up, while the match is in progress, and want only to walk off to have a beer, or 3.
    Nothing directly to do with exact ratings, some opponent's are ON, and sometimes, you';re off.
    I've already mentioned I lost double bagels to a 67 year old who was in the finals in 4 days of 65's. He was match sharp, I wasn't.
    I've also beaten Div1 lower level singles players, when they were unprepared for lower round Q's, and it was one of the matches of my life.
    This stuff goes both ways. I've recently LOST to top 3.5's (well, both were just bumped to 4.0 league play). They were stoked and playing well, I was going thru the motions thinking it should normally be a 2 and 2 victory for me, like it had always been for the previous 20 sets.
    Stuff happens, that's why we still have to play the game, and not just analyse what the results would be based on our previous play.
     
    #47
  48. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2009
    Messages:
    991
    Either your not a 4.5, or the guy should be 5.0
     
    #48
  49. goober

    goober Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2004
    Messages:
    8,491
    I never heard of a 4.0-5.0 tournament. If that is the case you probably were facing upper 4.0s and 4.5s in which case you obviously could be a legit 4.0. If this were USTA and a tournament was labelled 4.0, you could not play 4.0 if you were 4.5 even if the next available level was 5.0, you would HAVE to play 5.0 or open. But I guess in Canada they do things differently, probably should have said in your OP that you were in a tournament with 4.0s and 4.5s since the difference between upper end 4.5 and lower end 4.0 is huge.
     
    #49
  50. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2007
    Messages:
    4,071
    Location:
    NorCal Bay Area
    Why do you say that?
    I have a 500 record in league at 4.5. The guy I played was around 750. Both legit 4.5s based on USTA and record. I can see how he would lose to a top 4.5 better able to exploit his lack of movement.

    If you're saying that 2 & 2 is indicative of one of us being out of level, you're wrong. Perfectly legit for in-level matchup to result in 2 & 2 or thereabouts, depending on style matchup, form on the day, etc.
     
    #50

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