"So you only play 5.0?"

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by Fuji, Sep 30, 2012.

  1. Fuji

    Fuji Legend

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    Hey all, just wanted to relay a funny story that happened yesterday for me!

    Yesterday I was a junior camp from U16-U18 and these kids were amazing to watch! I got to play a couple games with some of them and it was a total blast. Perfect technique and they hit the cover off the ball. (They had a radar gun set up, and the fastest serves out of the juniors was 78MPH. Take this into consideration!)

    We were discussing game play and just general tennis experiences, and I heard the funniest thing from the lot of them. "Oh, so you struggle to play against 5.0 opponents?" These kids were from the ages of 14-17 and they scoffed at what I personally think is a pretty high level. A lot of these juniors are winning 5.0 and doing quite well in Open, so it doesn't really come as a surprise to me, but still a pretty funny comment when you look at the grand scheme of things.

    I was equally amazed at the radar gun they had set up. These young adults really weren't hitting amazingly hard on their serve or anything. Their top speed was 78MPH on a first serve, and as low as 45 on a second, (gun was at the centre tape on the opposite side to read speed) and they are doing well in Open's. It just goes to show that power definitely isn't everything when it comes to serving!

    Any who, just wanted to share, that no matter how good you think you are, there is a 14 year old girl who is probably better then you at it! :lol:

    -Fuji
     
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  2. dizzlmcwizzl

    dizzlmcwizzl Hall of Fame

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    This has always been my personal philosophy
     
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  3. Roger Wawrinka

    Roger Wawrinka Professional

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    Awesome story! What was the highest ranked player in the camp?
     
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  4. Fuji

    Fuji Legend

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    Haha thanks! I'm not sure exactly, but a few of them are "high ranked national players" according to the coach that facilitated the event!

    -Fuji
     
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  5. Fuji

    Fuji Legend

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    Bahahaha! It's a good one to live by! I'll probably adopt it!

    -Fuji
     
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  6. Timbo's hopeless slice

    Timbo's hopeless slice Hall of Fame

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    Ye, that is spot on, the Open tournaments I play these days are full of kids from 15 up and very few older players.

    Mind you, that sevice speed is taken from a very unusual place, mostly it is taken from the baseline so reads way higher..
     
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  7. TonyB

    TonyB Hall of Fame

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    First off, let me just say that the juniors around here regularly kick my lowly 4.5-level ass. However, they typically hit 100+ serves on a regular basis.

    Honestly, a 45-mph serve would be crushed by me for a winner at least 80% of the time. That's just pathetic. I can't believe a junior that regularly cleans up at 5.0 level would be able to survive with a 45 mph serve. I don't care how good the rest of their game is. When they have to start EVERY service point on defense, they can't possibly win very often.

    There is probably something wrong with that radar gun. 45 mph is ridiculous. Honestly, even 78 mph is absurd for an open-level first serve. That would be crushed around here, and my area is actually pretty weak.
     
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  8. Fuji

    Fuji Legend

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    Definitely!

    My first read at 88, and my second at 63-70 at the highest. Definitely a far cry from the last time I had it measured! The highest recorded was one of the university players, his was 111 LOL! (It looked to be well over 125!)

    -Fuji
     
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  9. rdis10093

    rdis10093 Hall of Fame

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    so fun to eat it against kids like that.
     
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  10. Fuji

    Fuji Legend

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    It was actually insane! A lot of these kids were like 5 feet tall, and just absolutely ripping ground strokes better then 95% of the adults I've played against hahaha!

    -Fuji
     
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  11. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

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    It's funny when you're playing a 12 and under player and you have to hit "higher" than normal because they're short. I've never moonballed a junior before but I have hit more "roll shots" to their backhands than I would a regular sized person.

    I've been aced by a 70 mph serve that painted the T because I was standing way too inside the baseline not knowing what I was getting myself into playing this kid.

    His dad is a 5.0 and his son was going to the Bollettieri academy last I heard. He wanted me to "hit" with his son (probably for his entertainment). I told his dad I have to beat him now while I can, because when he's like 14 or 15 ill have no chance lol. He was probably 10 or 11 at the time.

    That was incredibly fun, sobering, and a little humiliating. But I beat him. And as long as I never play him again he'll never beat me!
     
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  12. tamdoankc

    tamdoankc Rookie

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    A friend of mine has beaten Berdych as a junior. I think Thomas was 11 and my friend was 16. He's a retired pro now.
     
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  13. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    The gun's off or misplaced, just ran into that last week, best I could do was 86, last year did 106 at same event and my serve's improved over the year.
     
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  14. Timbo's hopeless slice

    Timbo's hopeless slice Hall of Fame

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    yep. friend of mine has a winning career record against Lleyton Hewitt.

    (beat him in 16s when he was 15 and Lleyton was about 12!)
     
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  15. tamdoankc

    tamdoankc Rookie

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    My new goal is to play the best 10 year olds in the world to hopefully say I have a winning record against the number 1 player in the world
     
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  16. dcdoorknob

    dcdoorknob Hall of Fame

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    Hmmm... I might personally need to find the best 4 year olds to play to make a plan like this work.... Do they have 4 and under rankings? :shock::lol:
     
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  17. goober

    goober Legend

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    I don't know why you are surprised. A nationally ranked junior in just about any sport is going to be vastly superior to any adult recreational player. A nationally ranked 14-15 year old recruit in basketball would absolutely run circles around middle aged adult at your local YMCA league. For the most part adult rec. tennis players were never elite tennis players to begin with so why would they as older adults suddenly want to compare themselves to elite younger players?
     
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  18. McLovin

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    As I understand it, the serve speed number seen on TV and at pro tournaments are taken as the ball leaves the racquet. When you place the 'gun' at the center strap of the net, you have to (1) hit it "up the tee" (e.g., right over the gun) to get an accurate reading, and (2) add 10-15 MPH in order to get equivalent numbers, because it reads the speed as it passes over the net.
     
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  19. jservoss

    jservoss Rookie

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    Every year when I went to my hometown for Xmas I set up a match play session with one kid who I had worked with a little bit back when I taught tennis. When he was 9, we was one of the top players in the nation. Every year he has improved immensely. When he was 14 he took a set off of me. He had very little power in his game, in fact he was starting to fall behind some of the other top juniors in the country because of his size. His consistency, placement, and timing were flawless. After the first set my legs were ready to quit. He could routinely angle his forehand so far off the court that I was constantly hitting shots from outside the doubles alley. It was pretty amazing. I'm a fairly strong 5.0 player, but all the pace I have in my game he was able to use against me because he timed his shots so well it stole all my pace. There is no way his serves were above 100mph, while mine easily break 100mph, but that didn't phase him at all.

    Unfortunately I haven't been back the last two years, but I'm pretty sure now I wouldn't stand a chance now.
     
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  20. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Do most juniors even know about NTRP ratings? I find it strange that any of them would make fun of 5.0s. Adults are usually not on their radar screen at all. The juniors I have played with have always been super respectful to me.
     
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  21. Sumo

    Sumo Semi-Pro

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    I wouldn't be surprised if high level jrs. know about the ratings.

    I imagine it's difficult for them to find a lot of playing partners, forcing them to look to adults. The ratings would be a quick and easy barometer to use.
     
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  22. Mongolmike

    Mongolmike Professional

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    In my experience they are aware of ratings vs rankings because they usually hit with a variety of club pros... who have ratings. Most larger clubs have a wider variety of pros rated from 4.0s to 5.5s and higher... so in conversation I'm sure the juniors know the difference between their rankings and an adults rating.

    Let alone if they've played in tournaments with adults the juniors have to play in the Open division (at least in this area), and some of the adults are playing up into the Open draw if there isn't a draw for their rank because of not enough participants (not enough 4.5's to fill a draw, they get bumped up into the next highest draw). So I think most of the kids know.
     
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  23. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    I'm with Suresh.
    No way a junior who might be a Number 1 singles in high school can go far in A/Open events. He might beat guys who don't belong there, like 4.5's who want to see how their game matches up, and they might beat another junior, but any experience adult would kill them 2's foreever.
    Adult 5.0 is playing against experienced (more than 5 years of competitive tennis) full grown MEN, who can place serves, are not afraid of hitting head high topspin shots, and can volley and overhead better than anyone in juniors.
    I played the #2 Junior in Peru, a then 16 year old, 5'11" and 170lbs. He was visiting CalBerkeley for a look at the campus. He crushed me, 2 and 2, but I was never better than 4.5, was over 55 at the time, and I could easily have taken more games if my ad court play was better. We played at least 6 doubles matches in the previous week, very evenly played.
    I played the #4 singles player from DomincanCollege when I was maybe 45, almost 20 years after I made 4.5. He WON the junior Wimbledon the year before, and the match setup was via the coach, who wanted him to face a real lefty serve (he was lefty also). Very close match, him winning straight sets.
    A full grown man who has tennis experience is not intimidated by little kids (under 17), no matter how hard they hit topspin groundies. Their serves and volleys are lacking, they don't position well at net, don't like to face skidding slices, and usually don't take practice matches seriously.
    OTOH, now that I'm 63, I'm sure any top junior can hand me double bagels.
     
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  24. Timbo's hopeless slice

    Timbo's hopeless slice Hall of Fame

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    A 'Top Junior' isn't going to be messing about with HS tennis, Lee!

    Maybe I'm spoilt since our top juniors are top 50 ITF kids, I don't think the number 1 player from Peru is at quite that level...
     
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  25. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    As you well know, it's a question of matchups.
    The majority of juniors play a strong hitting baseline game, from both wings, have superior speed, and excellent endurance. Most, not all, have somewhat weak serves for their tennis ability.
    Adults often are out of shape, might slice more on backhands, usually have much better net play (talking 5.0, or A/Open levels), have played more top players than any junior has seen, serves bigger, uses smarter tactics, but don't nearly match up in baseline bashing consistency skills.
    So, which adult 5.0 is facing the top junior today?
    Which junior is facing the 5.0 men's player, who can serve into the 130's, and run like TonLars?
    And throw in the lefty angle, either side. And how wisely they serve?
    As we all know, a 5.0 player can beat one top level junior, then lose bagels to another.
    As we all know, a top junior can beat one top level Men's 5.0, and lose bagels to another.
     
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  26. Timbo's hopeless slice

    Timbo's hopeless slice Hall of Fame

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    ye, fair enough

    I have played one young guy a couple of times, but he is quite tall and strong so he serves big, and he is keen on doubles, so he can volley.

    and yes, he beats me pretty easily, lol!

    he has his first senior ATP point (as of September) and is, umm, 60 something on the ITF Juniors..
     
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  27. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Back when I was playing OK and maybe 27 years old, I played a junior named HermanBauer from MillValley, in the HarborPointOpen. He was maybe 6'2" and 180lbs., served me right off the map (0 and 5), and was nothing like the juniors who I'd played in the previous tourneys.
    Yes, those juniors do indeed exist. OTOH, he was also the only junior to make it to the 3rd round of A/Open in that tournament, a pretty big draw A. I left after that match to lick my wounds, and did not pedal back the next day to see how he would have done.
     
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  28. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I have played many people in many places, but they had spaces between the first and last names.
     
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  29. SoBad

    SoBad Legend

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    Back in the 1920's we used to hang around with DonBudge and WillTilden at speakeasies all over Charleston, SC.
     
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  30. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    These days it is all about AndyMurray and NovakDjokovic at the USOpen and whether RafaNadal will come back for the AustralianOpen and if RogerFederer has anything LeftInTheTank
     
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  31. SoBad

    SoBad Legend

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    Butthey havethe London/Peking WTF where the real player play inthedoor?~?
     
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  32. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Ah, the youth of today.....
    They think they are living on the discovering edge of life, every new experience a new experience for mankind in general.
    If you don't learn from previous mistakes, if you don't learn from history, you will be doomed to repeat the mistakes of your elders.
     
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  33. SoBad

    SoBad Legend

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    Young ppl are a bit disgusting in their ignorance these days. They should be required to read at least one book by MartinNavratilov by age 5. That's what summers are for.
     
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  34. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Did Martina start writing before age 5?
    I'd rather read a book by BobbyRiggs, or one of the Pancho's, or AltheaG.
     
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  35. SoBad

    SoBad Legend

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    Martina was detained with a gun at LAX. She should have just carried a pipe instead.
     
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  36. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    Lol too old to hit the space bar?
     
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  37. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    And similarly, no matter how good a 14 year old girl or boy think they are, there is a 45 year old old-timer with a bung knee who can make them look clueless on a tennis court.

    A club I played earlier this year had one of the top juniors in the country - a 16 year old winning tournaments left right and centre. Club champs time he rocks up like he's got it covered and a 40-something guy basically makes him implode in the semis. He was cursing, whacking balls around etc... It was extremely amusing (and satisfying) to watch someone simply not have a clue how to play someone so much craftier and who didn't bother trying to outplay him at his own game.
     
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  38. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    He is conserving bandwidth and disk space for TW
     
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  39. 0d1n

    0d1n Hall of Fame

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    ROFL. Good goal. I don't have a winning record against her, but
    I can proudly say I've beaten an ITF junior girl currently ranked in the top 30ish. She's 16 now, and I've beaten her 2-3 years ago. She still has more wins over me since we continued to play until I was in over my head playing against her. A few months is a HUGE difference for these juniors sometimes, even though that amount of time doesn't really matter for me.
    I would probably struggle to win games from her now...and most of our matches would probably be 12-0 in her favor. I don't know EXACTLY how I would do since it is needless to say her coach doesn't bother asking me for match-play against her anymore since she's WAY past my level currently and is training against male juniors...some of which already have ATP points.
    I'll stick to 12-14 year olds...and even some of those are tough. A very good 13-14 year old boy with chances to "make it pro" will more often than not allow me 1-3 games per match...tops. On a faster surface I'd do better, but on clay it's tough against these super trained tennis machines. They just don't miss the way us "rec players" do, they are way too well trained for that.
     
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  40. TheCheese

    TheCheese Professional

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    Their serves are probably much faster than 78 if you placed the gun on the baseline...
     
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  41. jmnk

    jmnk Professional

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    you must be a very weak player. Everybody knows that a 4.0 male would have a very close match with A. Radwanska, so beating a 16year old junior girl should be no problem :)
     
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  42. 0d1n

    0d1n Hall of Fame

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    Hahaha ... right :)). I have a hunch my scores against most of these 4.0 males which "would have close matches with Radwanska" (at least when running their mouth on this forum) would be similar to said 16yo junior scores against me (i.e. they would struggle to win games in a 3 out of 5 sets match).
     
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  43. SoBad

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    Radwanska has a weak backhand. Any junior boy or even retired Sampras could overpower her with the right strategy, at least on grass.
     
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  44. 0d1n

    0d1n Hall of Fame

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    Retired Sampras is still Sampras...of course he would beat Radwanska. But..."any junior boy" is a bit of a stretch.
    And...comparing "retired Sampras" to rec players on this forum is...laughable.
     
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  45. SoBad

    SoBad Legend

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    An in-form TonLars would take out Sampras anytime on hardcourts or slow clay.
     
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  46. 0d1n

    0d1n Hall of Fame

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    Good for him.
     
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  47. Joeyg

    Joeyg Semi-Pro

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    I'm sure Tony would find this as laughable as I do. I hope this is an attempt at sarcasm (something I personally excel at).
     
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  48. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    We know a somewhat in shape Sampras would beat Ton, ClintThompson, Abba, or just about any ex college player who started the Futures and Q events in the last 2 years. A retired Sampras is still a 6.0 level player, especially on hard courts and 2 out of 3 sets. His accumulated match experience alone is worth 3 games each set.
    And there isn't close to any 4.5 male who can take a set off any current top 40 WTA woman.
     
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  49. 0d1n

    0d1n Hall of Fame

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    A SET ?? No 4.5 will ever get more than a couple games (tops) from a serious pro woman. The couple of games are really invented. I allowed those games in case our 4.5 has a huge serve and somehow gets 3 aces in a game or something.
    From the back of the court, they are going to struggle to win points...let alone games.
    Some people (not you ... I'm talking in general) who make statements like ... WTA is so bad...compared to the ATP, and then make assumptions and generalizations about what that means in terms of male amateurs playing pro women...have no clue what a pro means, and they never played at a half serious level.
    I repeat, I would struggle to get games from a current 16 yo junior girl who's in the top 30 ITF (18's). A pro woman (yeh, Radwanska included) would mop the floor with me. I've seen Radwanska play live by the way. She hits a clean and pretty hard ball, moves great, and serves very well for a woman. People who think she's a "pusher" are comparing her with Serena (who's a freak), and/or generally have no clue.
    I don't have a US rating, being a foreigner, but I play competitively around here and if I would move to the US I would self rate as a 4.5 and I think (actually I know) I would do very well at that level.
    Take that however you like.
     
    #49
  50. SoBad

    SoBad Legend

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    Even the prime Sampras could never challenge someone like Kafelnikov at the French.
     
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