Some explaination of the US college system?

Discussion in 'College Tennis Talk' started by MethodTennis, Nov 21, 2011.

  1. MethodTennis

    MethodTennis Hall of Fame

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    OK, im from the UK with no intention of playing college tennis but I read a lot of thread on here and have no idea what you guys are talking about sometimes. I had a bunch of questions and I compiled the best answers in this thread!

    Can a D3 team get promoted to D2 though?

    Are the best D2 schools better than some of the weaker D1s?
    What age are students when they first begin at US college?
    What would a 4 start recruit be interms of UK ranking or rating?
    How much do guys and girls train each week?
    Who do the different colleges play and how often do they play?
    Is it college leagues or cup competitions?

    Is there much individual competition?
    What do these players do interms of tennis after college?
    Is there a league system in the US for the top adult players which don't make the cut for ATP or futures level or is it all individual (or doubles) competition at that point beyond college?
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2013
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  2. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

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    1) NCAA divisions are based on schools agreeing to be part of the division and abide by its scholarship limitations and other rules. Division I men's tennis gets 4.5 scholarships per team, I believe Division II is close to that or the same, and Division III does not offer scholarships for sports. The women's numbers are 8, 6, and 0 (based on memory) for these same three divisions. A school can decide it wants to change divisions, but that is an expensive multi-year process of getting approval, finding a conference to play in or starting out as an independent, etc. There is no promotion based on performance as you see in the English Football Leagues.

    2) Yes, there is overlap across divisions in terms of strength, especially because not all teams offer the full limit of scholarships for their division. A Division I school might offer no scholarships at all for tennis. They are in Division I because they offer scholarships in most of their other sports.

    3) About 18.

    4) No idea.

    5) 20 hours per week is the team training and match play limit, but elite teams circumvent this limit by having team captains organize unofficial physical fitness training sessions, and word gets back to the coach if you are skipping them.

    6) Teams play 1-2 dual matches per week against other colleges, with about half their matches being within their conference and half being non-conference.

    7) Colleges play for conference championships and qualify by computer rankings for the national championship tourney if they don't win their conference.

    8 ) The autumn has nothing but individual competition, with team vs. team in the spring. Then there is a national individual tourney in May right after the team tourney finishes.

    9) After college, some try to play Futures and work their way up the ATP ladder. Most get on with their post-college lives and do not play professionally.

    10) Post-college, league play is not very close to professional level and exists nationwide as a competitive recreational activity.
     
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  3. MethodTennis

    MethodTennis Hall of Fame

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    thank you very much great post. So see post college do most guys just do individual comps if they have time and if they dont ditch the tennis competitions?
     
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  4. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

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    Yes, they can enter Men's Open tournaments hosted by tennis clubs, even win some prize money there.
     
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  5. MethodTennis

    MethodTennis Hall of Fame

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    are they pretty decent stanard wise?
     
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  6. treeman10

    treeman10 Semi-Pro

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    wow ClarkC, great response indeed.
     
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  7. corbind

    corbind Professional

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    ClarkC, that was a fantastic post. :)
     
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  8. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    Sticky thread nomination!
     
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  9. diredesire

    diredesire Super Moderator

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    stuck, enjoy.
     
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  10. Shalinidavid

    Shalinidavid New User

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    Hi great very nice post Fantastic some explaination of the US collage sysrem
    thanks to sharing............................:)
    Bhangra dance
     
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  11. Lemmy

    Lemmy New User

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    stupid question: what does ' 4.5 scholarships per team' means? I don't get the 0.5 as reading '4 scholarships per team' I would think the best 4 players get a scholarship from the university.
     
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  12. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

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    Add up the cost of tuition, fees, textbooks, and room and board. That is the dollar value of one scholarship. If you split that money evenly between two players, each is counted as receiving 0.5 scholarships. That means their parents are forking over some money.

    Men's tennis players rarely get full scholarships. They get partial scholarships, which might be accounted as 0.2 or 0.4 or 0.5 or 0.8 scholarships, depending on what they receive. The total across the roster can add up to no more than 4.5.

    Women get full scholarships in NCAA Division I (up to a maximum of 8 per team), but not men.
     
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  13. Lemmy

    Lemmy New User

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    Makes sense, thank!!
     
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  14. Lemmy

    Lemmy New User

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    Here I am :)

    Does U in players results page means the match was unfinished?

    [​IMG]

    speaking of Thai-Son, this are his highlights in the Virginia Cavaliers page:
    2013-14
    • ITA Atlantic Region Rookie of the Year
    • VaSID State Freshman of the Year
    • 3rd Team All-ACC
    • Ranked as high as No. 112 nationally in singles
    • Posted a 20-1 singles record in dual match play
    • Missed fall season due to injury


    Does 3rd Team All-ACC means his team (hence his university I guess) was the third best in the ACC conference?

    I've noticed sometimes players are listed as recent graduante and graduate on tennisrecruiting, I guess recent graduate means they just recently enrolled in a university program that is about to being? I was looking in particular at Boltz profile. Also what does provisional means in this case?
    More in general I don't get why players enrolled in undergraduate programs are listed as graduate.

    Tnx
     
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  15. jaggy

    jaggy G.O.A.T.

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    1st team All-ACC would mean he was voted among the best, 2nd next and 3rd, 3rd best. Still a fair achievement.

    A student-athlete has 4 years of playing eligibility and most do this while enrolled in undergraduate studies. However if they race through and finish early they can complete their 4 years of playing eligibility as graduate students. This is less common yet is happening more as many students arrive in college tested out of classes through AP credits etc and can graduate faster.

    I hope this makes sense, feel free to ask more for clarification.
     
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  16. jaggy

    jaggy G.O.A.T.

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    On re-reading my response, All-ACC means only players in the ACC conference were eligible for this. If you played in say the SEC you would be considered for All-SEC voting.
     
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  17. TopDawg

    TopDawg Legend

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    Yes, U means unfinished.

    3rd team All-ACC is an individual award that he earned based on his results. There is a 1st team All Conference made up of the top players in the conference which is usually guys that play 1 or 2 in the lineup, then 2nd team would be the next best guys that probably play 2 or 3, then 3rd team is the best after that.

    I think recent graduate means they just graduated in the current year. I'm not sure why it shows recent graduate on Boltz even though his graduation year was 2011 - probably since he's not American and didn't play college tennis it wasn't a high priority to update the profile. If your referring to it showing graduate on tennisrecruiting.net's page that means a graduate of high school.

    Not sure on the use of "Provisional" for the graduating class. Maybe the assumption was made that he did finish up school but since it couldn't/wasn't confirmed they used that word.
     
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  18. Lemmy

    Lemmy New User

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    Thanks, so actually KWIATKOWSKI at 19 is already graduate? Like he completed a full bachelor's degree of 3 or 4 years?
    Then why is Boltz recent graduate if he's class of 2011? and what does mean?
     
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  19. Lemmy

    Lemmy New User

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    edit: posted my last reply a few seconds after TopDawg post. tnx
     
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  20. Lemmy

    Lemmy New User

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    Ok now I get it, it's a like a fantasy 1st team in that conference.

    Yes I was referring to the use of graduate on tennisrecruiting.net's pages, so KWIATKOWSKI graduated from high shool in 2013 and he'll begin his sophomore year in september at UVA. Now it makes sense.

    Well in Boltz case then he's earned his high school degree in 2011 which makes sense too, the only mystery now is the provisional thing.

    Thanks that helped!
     
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  21. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

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    Explaining everything about tennisrecruiting.net should probably not take place on a sticky thread about college tennis. They have FAQs at that site that answer a lot of this.

    For example, "provisional" means that tennisrecruiting.net is not sure what a player's high school graduation year is. They pick up tourney results and guess at a player's age based on the age groups he plays in. As players often play up in age, that can be misleading. When the player signs up for an account, verifies his identity using his USTA membership number or ITF number, and then edits his graduation year on his own profile, it ceases to be provisional.
     
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  22. Lemmy

    Lemmy New User

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    Thanks, I have noticed this provisional thing was indeed covered in the faq, my bad. If you need to delete the off-topic parts concerning tennisrecruiting.net no problem.
     
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  23. latso

    latso New User

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    Where could we find an in depth breakdown of the above information, does anyone know?

    Like - How much is the average cost for a college player for 1 year? If he gets 0.8, what would be the cost of the 0.2 that will have to be paid?

    And is the scholarship like 80% of each cost, or is it a sum that can be distributed by the student or his parents? Like, say the yearly cost for the student is 30.000$, he gets 24.000$ scholarship. Could those 24K cover tuition, textbooks, room and the student to arrange food on his own (say the remaining 6K is the food cost f.e.), or does the money go - 80% tuition, 80% room, 80% food, etc. and the parents need to add the 20% per branch separately?

    Another question - Men's tennis players get "rarely" full scholarships, but that's not "never".
    In which cases are such granted and is there base for discussing the conditions with the college, or is it like fixed?

    I assume these question would get different answers per college and probably are too specific for a non college professor to answer, but any insight from maybe ex players, or people who have connection with these rograms would be very welcome!

    Thanks in advance :)
     
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  24. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    You ask some good questions. But every school has a different tuition structure and combine that with different tennis scholarships available per programs there are simply too many variables for a general answer let alone a break down. Coaches also award scholarships based on how good the perceive a player based on their evaluation and also on how much scholarship money they have to give out. They may also consider financial need as well.

    Check out this link from the USTA on college tennis vs. playing pro. You'll get some numbers here. http://www.itatennis.com/Assets/ita_assets/pdf/USTA/Going+to+College+or+Turning+Pro+FAQ.pdf

    The average male scholarship tennis player likely gets about half his tuition, books, room and board paid. A handful of D1, DII and NAIA players get full ride for tennis, I don't know how many, but thats the rare exception and far from the norm. NJCAA (Junior College Tennis) Fully funded programs have 3 full and 6 half scholarships. The junior college tennis programs can give two full scholarships max to international players. There are not that many fully funded JC's though.

    Looks like you are from Bulgaria. If you or a tennis player you know wants to play college tennis, I suggest finding a coach or reputable agency in the area who knows the U.S. college tennis system for advice.
     
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  25. Clemson_tennis

    Clemson_tennis Legend

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    Uncle Latso! What are you doing in these waters?
     
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  26. latso

    latso New User

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    Thanks a lot mate, informative answer and this paper is exactly what i needed!

    I am from Bulgaria and i'm way past my prime tennis years (never been pro though), but my kid is 11 and developing quite well for the moment.

    In a few years this will be a big question for me and i'm preparing ahead, also because the financial weight of such a decision could be quite heavy for our standards, so i need to figure many things in advance.

    Perhaps a bit premature, but it's never too early to get to know such a complicated from my point of view matter.

    Tbh, i'm quite surprised about how tight it actually sounds. I thought it would be more often with full or 80% scholarships for nationally ranked players, or internationally ranked juniors, smth like that.

    Also coz i couldn't find much sense in the whole thing from a certain perspective.

    For me, it looks like this - You've trained your kid for several years, he/she has a solid level at 17, could either try pushing for pro, or play college tennis, get a degree and keep his/her chances of giving pro tennis another chance after.

    If they train and play for 20 hours a week, i couldn't imagine how prepared of a scientist/lawyer/whatever they could become meanwhile.

    And if one needs to also pay what would often be double the money for a solid education in Europe (not everywhere, coz there are also many very expensive Unis), it starts making little sense to me.

    Rather push harder for going pro in that case.

    College tennis has always been (at least in my mind) like the safer bet, from which you buy yourself a back up (in case of injuries for example, one's career could just end and all you have is a bad knee f.e., and a high school diploma), that you pay with restricting the time you spend on the court for 4 years.

    Dunno, it's probably not the Americans point of view, coz for them it's either 100% pay, or 50% with sports, which is a great opportunity, evading the student loans and stuff spiral, but from Eastern Europe point of view it looks different.

    And i have acquaintances who went through this, a couple guys studied in Hawaii with tennis, another one is in Kansas, so i guess i need to ask them in a bit more details how it works and how good a choice it is.

    Am i assuming something wrongly in my (too long, sorry) view?
     
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  27. latso

    latso New User

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    fed up with mods at MTF, exploring options :)

    And i like this place :)
     
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  28. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    Latso, Unless Bulgaria govt. pays for your kids educations, college tennis is a good path. For girls many of which get full rides its a solid payback, for boys who often get 50% scholarships on avg. don't expect a return on your tennis training investment, unless you are the trainer/coach. Male tennis players in some schools may also qualify for academic aid, but that varies by state and each school as it applies to international students. Study up on it so you know the system better than the agencies that sell you the service to get your kid a U.S. athletic scholarship so you can help him yourself and save the consulting $$$$.
     
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