Some Lansdorp Coaching

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by 5263, Oct 31, 2012.

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  1. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Here is some vid of one of the all time famous coaches in the US.
    2010 video it appears and you can look to see how modern you find the form.
    He talks of working to hit more of "his" type Fhs and less of the USTA and Academy
    Fhs. Shows the RL Fh being about 1.5' over the net saying it uses less topspin
    as well. His words mention how the USTA and Academy balls use more spin.
    I don't see any mention of where on the court to use his low clearance, lower spin
    shot, but he is working the kid fully back at the BL area and talks of using
    his shots to put the ball away.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpfcGkC83oY

    One uninformed poster in another thread says he doesn't speak poorly of other
    coaches etc...but here he has the parents laughing at Braden's student's strokes,
    the academy and USTA balls. Actually seems that at least half of his comments
    are directed towards ridicule of how others teach. That is fine, but just not
    what is claimed about him.
     
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  2. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    #2
  3. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    #3
  4. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    His strength, Direct from him

    Asked to......tell me the two or three secrets of how you do it.

    RL: It’s the repetition. It’s the ability to make them hit balls that they don’t think they can hit. It’s the work ethic. Since I have a great work ethic, you get the same ethic out of them. It’s a process of several years, molding the person. Of course with somebody like Maria, Tracy or Pete, they have a championship quality within. But you have to give them the tools and the confidence that all their qualities will work. By having Maria hit her forehand over and over again, she’s able to handle it because she’s seen hundreds of thousands of balls come to her at 100 miles per hour.
    ----------------------
    I'm very inclined to agree with the above after years of reading about him and
    looking at his work.
     
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  5. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    What he expected w/ Federer's Career

    IT: What about Federer? Will he have a Sampras-like career?

    RL: But what was great about Pete, was once he became no. 1, he always felt like he was going to win. When Federer plays, I’m always worried that he’s going to disappoint.
     
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  6. Lovingit007

    Lovingit007 New User

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    Really you spend sooooooo much time trying to say RL is no better a coach than any Tom dick and Harry. But Everyone knows what RL has contributed and it is no gimmick..
     
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  7. sundaypunch

    sundaypunch Hall of Fame

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    It would seem that he was more relevant in an earlier era. The "Lansdorp shot" with 1-foot of net clearance has all but disappeared as a winning style of play.
     
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  8. Lovingit007

    Lovingit007 New User

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    No one is relevant across multiple generations.. But what RL contributed accounts for around 25 grand slams and many more ATP/wta titles. That alone can withstand the onslaught of nay Sayers for years n years to come. Come guys this guy stands alone and feeds ball after ball, moulds players metally and produces multiple GS champs and how can one say he is no better...
     
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  9. FrisbeeFool

    FrisbeeFool Rookie

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    5263 just feels insecure because his hero, the person he's built to be this mythic religious figure, Oscar Wegner, can't point to more success stories of top level players he developed. So 5263 denigrates other coaches and attempts to minimize their accomplishments. It's sad.

    I get that he wants to prosthelytize and spread the good word about mtm, but why bring other coaches into it? His whole selling pitch for mtm is built around denigrating "traditional" coaches. Why not just talk about whatever his mtm tips may be, without vilifying other coaches.

    Lansdorp's accomplishments speak for themselves. He's a legend.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2012
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  10. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    You have your opinion of course, but IMO you completely miss the point.
    Interesting how his fans can't take any balanced comments. It needs to be all
    praise?

    Imo it is important to study to compare and contrast where his work has been
    most useful. I post about him because of his contributions to US tennis and a
    respect for what he does best
    . Lots of folks teach strokes in various ways, but
    I don't see too many who "train" players with the discipline that RL did and help
    them to see what they are capable with work and belief.
    You trying to attack me for my perspective and opinions is sort of silly and I spend very little time on RL these days. :)
     
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  11. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    First off Oscar can point to many success stories, but don't know why you always
    want to discuss MTM.

    Second, RL is the king of talking about other methods and instruction in a negative
    light.
    Third, the main point here is to point the focus on the things RL did well and
    where he excelled, so just relax a bit :)

    and yes, some mention of where posters have provided misinfo on him, like about the
    method/system thing. There is a comment attributed to him, Robert Lansdorp:
    'My System Makes Them Great'
    which contradicts the quote..."while they developed champions they did not call it a system
    or method."
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2012
    #11
  12. FrisbeeFool

    FrisbeeFool Rookie

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    5263 your gimmickry might fool people on an internet forum. In the real world of tennis no one cares about who is being labeled traditional or modern. They care about who is getting results.
     
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  13. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    And that is why he doesn't start a thread claiming to present a balanced view of some coach who does not post here and cannot defend himself. People who achieve things do not need to resort to tactics like that.
     
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  14. sundaypunch

    sundaypunch Hall of Fame

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    Yes, he is a legend with a résumé that speaks for itself. That has nothing to do with the style of play that he advocates currently being out of favor.
     
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  15. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    And correspondingly today's pros are being coached by others. Times change and nothing is forever. What counts is what someone did when they were active.
     
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  16. FrisbeeFool

    FrisbeeFool Rookie

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    Was it out of favor earlier this year when Maria Sharapova was winning the french open?
     
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  17. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Well that is an excellent question!

    What changes and adjustments was the big talk from commentators about her
    FO win?
     
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  18. FrisbeeFool

    FrisbeeFool Rookie

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    The real life coaches are too busy out coaching to worry about who is or isn't in favor on an online forum.
     
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  19. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Especially when the other coach has never posted here and cannot be expected to respond. It is a very low-brow tactic usually associated with politicians.
     
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  20. FrisbeeFool

    FrisbeeFool Rookie

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    Had she been on the internet reading your mtm suggestions? Was that the talk after her French Open win?
     
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  21. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    LOL good one
     
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  22. FrisbeeFool

    FrisbeeFool Rookie

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    Yeah. Agreed
     
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  23. FrisbeeFool

    FrisbeeFool Rookie

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    Word. Quoted for truth.
     
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  24. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    This has got the be the FUNNIEST post ever on this forum, lol !

    You 2 guys and a couple others have your fun and jokes at the expense of
    one of the nicest coaches out there, insulting him in every way you can dream
    up with mis-info and innuendo, then make a comment like above,lol.
    Don't you get tired of discussing Oscar all the time??

    Why not spend some discussion on one of the greatest US coaches in our tennis
    history? What is the problem having a thread about the various aspects of
    RL's coaching. Vic, Nick, Macci...etc...we don't expect to hear from any of them,
    and they are all good for our discussions. Why can't RL be discussed?
    I'm not nasty about what Imo are his weaknesses like you guys are with your
    silly comments about sweet spot and counting on Oscar.
    Even you must admit that :)
    I also give him tons of credit and like to look to see where he had such a great
    impact, since I'm convinced it was not about stroke technique.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2012
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  25. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    we clearly have a couple of guys great at dishing it out, but very
    weak on taking their own medicine, lol.
    And in this case, it's nowhere bad like their antics :)
     
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  26. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    From Robert's page

    Part of his Philosophy & where imo he really excelled-

    Repetition is crucial. Hitting the same ball over and over. It does not happen much in this country. It is all groups, to make more money, and that is the only reason, and playing points. Does not do it. Besides getting one on one coaching, kids should play matches. Two out of three. But they need the one on one coaching and repetition. When you have a lot of repetition you will need to develop muscle memory. It becomes automatic. You don't have to think about it. It will be the same every time. Discipline- You need discipline. Either discipline yourself, which is difficult when you are young, or have someone like me discipline you. It is more difficult for the parents and it many times ends up in a separation when the kids get older and don't take it anymore. I don't have that problem and never had it with my students. Without discipline you will never make it. Not in tennis and not in the regular work force.
     
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  27. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    Lansdorp, like most other coaches, has been influenced by the modern equipment and heavy topspin game, but it is definitely correct to say that he still advocates a flatter ball than some of the other professionals.

    Nadal has proven there's a role for the heavy topspin ball even on the grass and hard courts, but sometimes the high net clearance ball at the pro level is over-hyped on these boards. There's a lot of net skimming hard topspin balls being hit by the pros, especially on the hard courts. Whenever I've watched Nadal practice at Indian Wells, he is always blasting low and fast, and mostly doing his across the shoulder finish. So even Nadal believes in a finishing shot that doesn't have a lot of net clearance.

    I find Federer a more interesting player because of his great variety. He can really up the topspin, but he can also rip a net skimming winner.

    In any case, I don't think the Lansdorp would try to take credit with the heavy topspin game. Years ago when I talked with him at IW, he said at the time he really liked Murray's game.
     
    #27
  28. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    Actually, that article Robert wrote for Tennisplayer on the finishes is the best overall explanation anywhere of the modern forehand, if I do say so myself.

    Robert has a feel for what it takes to win now, just as he did when he developed Pete.

    Nadal and some of the other elite grinders may hit balls 3 or 6 feet over the net and that's one option. Nadal is a great, great champion. But not too many players will ever have the wheels or the tenacity of Nadal. And it's hard to believe his injuries aren't related to the toll of the heavy spin defensive style.

    The trajectories hit by Federer and Djokovic and DelPotro, however, are probably half that on a high percentage of balls. Lasers that resemble Agassi and Sampras forehands. And played from similar, close in positions.

    BTW this whole thing with 5263 bashing Robert got started about 3 years ago on the Tennisplayer boards when 5263 made some similar insulting, passive aggressive comments about Robert. Robert shredded him and 5263 has been trying for revenge ever since.

    Everyone sees that 5263 started this thread because of F Fool's brilliant satiric thread. That's obvious from his posts above. It has nothing to do with his desire to show "balance."

    BTW I wonder who complained to get that one nuked? Any speculations?
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2012
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  29. Lovingit007

    Lovingit007 New User

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    It takes 2seconds for a 2yr old to smell from 2miles that 5263 has an agenda against the legend proven track record multi GS champ producing coach Robert Landsdorp.

    Anyone trying to defend RL against 5263 is like trying to wake up a guy who is pretending to sleep.

    The world has already endorsed RL,s legendary work.
     
    #29
  30. chico9166

    chico9166 Guest

    Luckily, there is a video to contradict your claims.....All RL is doing is showing the kid how to send the ball out on different trajectories and spin rates....something most good coaches do at very young age with talented plalyers..In fact he mentions (you obviosly had the sound muted) that there is a time and place for academy balls. The emphasis here is on variety and showing the young man tennis in a situational sense...again good coaching...

    Btw, the kids forehand is much more "modern looking" than what you MTM' ers teach, with its full arching/rainbow to a low finish look. That "find it, feel it, and finish over the shoulder is sooooo old school.

    Other than your accurate assesment of RL's demand for excellence, (as a cornerstone to his students immense success) this has been an epic fail, and your transparent agenda obvious.
     
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  31. tennis_balla

    tennis_balla Hall of Fame

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    Why did the Jeff Salzenstein Extension thread get locked?
     
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  32. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Oscar is a a member of this board, has posted extensively, and has/had minions who create threads for him all the time. It is not my fault that the threads get deleted by the mods. Lansdorp on the other hand has never posted here, so your comparison is ridiculous.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2012
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  33. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Fascinating. It seems he still can't let go of it. Why is that? Why would someone who nobody knows about have this kind of hatred towards a proven authority in his field that he constantly needs to criticize him and even create such threads about him? Is it some kind of cult behavior?
     
    #33
  34. treblings

    treblings Hall of Fame

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    do threads only get deleted once someone complains?
     
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  35. treblings

    treblings Hall of Fame

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    oh, and btw, i would have really welcomed a thread about Robert Lansdorp and why he was/is so tremendously successful. his strengths and weaknesses.
    with the way this thread goes it´s probably only a matter of time before it gets deleted
     
    #35
  36. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    hahaha, yes passive aggressive, lol, which is code for discussed RL's claims
    without high praise in every regard. Funny how those who have hero's like JY here with RL
    are the very one's who accuse others of their tendencies. I have no problem
    with discussing Oscar's strengths and weaknesses and am fine with all but the
    ugly attacks on here, but several can't even discuss RL with any objectivity.
    Only a homer like JY would think RL shredded anyone other than the little kids
    he lords over. Much like JY, he is quickly reduced to personal attacks.

    I on the other hand just maintain a balanced approach to it and feel RL is worth
    study and discussion despite what are obvious shortcomings technique wise
    to anyone but the most serious homer. His other contributions are exceptional
    and quite possibly what we should strive to learn from RL imo.
     
    #36
  37. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Then you will have to start that thread, because if I make any comment on RL,
    his followers will claim it is due to their poor treatment of MTM.
    One is not really related to the other much, other than RL tends towards the
    traditional side and Oscar take a more modern approach. Both have done
    excellent things in tennis and both have short comings I expect.
     
    #37
  38. Lovingit007

    Lovingit007 New User

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    why do you want to tag RL as traditional and Oscar as modern? RL has around 25 Grand Slams to his credit + ATP/WTA titles. how many Oscar has to his credits? if non then RL is the most modern coach in the history right?
     
    #38
  39. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I know it's tough for you to get things straight, but Oscar's focus has been
    working with coaches and RL's has been working with developing Jrs.
    Last I looked, most coaches don't go on to play Majors.
    If you want to make ridiculous comparisons of apples to oranges...how many
    books has RL written and how many has Oscar written??
    Doesn't prove a thing, but it's same thing you are doing with your comments.

    I know this will go right over most of the haters heads but I'm not saying that
    because it matters, but to point out that it is quite silly to compare things
    that are unrelated.

    Now what does make sense is how many players win majors playing modern vs
    traditional? In the last 10 yrs? How many traditional players have done well
    without a top 3 in the world serve to lean on to cover for avg and below
    strokes?
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2012
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  40. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Interesting take you have on his comments. I mostly hear him trying to get
    the kid to stop using good net clearance and to lower his shots....yes,
    admitting there is a time for higher clearance while making fun of it and getting
    laughs about it.
    He also says the kid needs to hit more of his low drives and has them work that
    from the BL.
    Fine if you agree... I just don't see that working over the last decade unless
    you watch the WTA. RL does see to do better with the ladies game it seems.
     
    #40
  41. Lovingit007

    Lovingit007 New User

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    so how many of Oscar coached Coaches have gone on to coach GS champs? what ever way you twist the truth, the fundamental question is still un-answered or the truth is no matter how you twist it RL has produced Gs champs and Oscar has none right?
     
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  42. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Really makes no difference what I say...You don't intend to acknowledge Oscar's
    influence. Why do you ask? So you can say, "no he didn't"?

    He imo has a big influence on many coaches and players.

    Hey, but I'm not the one pitting these coaches against each other. That's you
    guys thing. I'm on here to share what instruction and tips can help players on
    here...some from RL and some from Oscar, along with some from me and others.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2012
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  43. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    Let's see it's apples and oranges and you can't worry about Grand Slam winners or even pro players in evaluating coaches--this is because Oscar works with coaches.

    Yet the mtm websites claims associations with virtually every multiple Grand Slam winner in the last 25 years--and a lot more tour players as well.

    Meanwhile traditional coaches have failed to win Grand Slam titles in the recent past and that is an indictment of them.

    No wonder we all have trouble keeping it straight.
     
    #43
  44. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    Loving,

    Correct you are--and the funny thing if you look at the article 5263 posted, Lansdorp's understanding of the modern forehand is far more modern than what is in Oscar's videos.
     
    #44
  45. Lovingit007

    Lovingit007 New User

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    I very well understand Oscar's influence. but somehow attributing his influence on the current play and success of tour players is unfair to the coaching/player community. because there is no way you can quantify objectively the influence.
     
    #45
  46. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    So you want to count that?

    Then I guess Oscar has more by your count, but since
    he didn't do the same type development with most of them like RL did,
    I didn't count that as apples to apples...but if that is how you see it?

    In my view they have a very different focus in their work.
     
    #46
  47. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I don't see how it's unfair if you understand that
    you can't quantify it, but draw a different conclusion.
    no big deal.
    I also think it is tough to quantify RL's works with Pete technique wise, since
    he didn't agree with him going to the 1 hander, didn't teach him the serve or
    teach him his famous running Fh.

    I always seek to learn more and give credit about RL's work ethic training approach,
    which seems to be his main asset. If I had an issue with him or an agenda,
    that would be easy to overlook since none of the homers seem to think it is
    important.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2012
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  48. Lovingit007

    Lovingit007 New User

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    John, see how 5263 is twisting the facts. when you talk about GS champs it is apples to oranges - cannot compare, but as a coach RL is traditional and Oscar is modern that is apples to apples.. but then RL works with players but Oscar works with Coaches.. cannot compare.

    tennis as a sport changes everyday and both coach and player has to adapt everyday and those who adapt produce champions.
    somehow saying Oscar invented this Modern game way back in 1970's is outrageous.

    where as RL and other coaches works their butt of working individually with players to make them GS champs -- oh you cannot compare that...
     
    #48
  49. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Now this is twisting, lol.

    JY is not saying RL is modern or showing understanding modern well, but just
    saying he is better than Oscar, who JY seems to think gets little or nothing
    correct. Is that high Praise??
    yes, he's your twister :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2012
    #49
  50. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Oh don't they live & die by their misinformation??

    Not invented Modern game, but started one of the first Instructional Methods
    based on what is now called the modern game; a term that was coined related
    to this instructional method.

    This the level of info in the quote that you are dealing with from the anti MTM
    crowd. Excellent example of how they operate or worse, how they actually think.
    Are they twisting info or just don't understand what they talk about?
     
    #50
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