Some players lack of knowledge (on equipment) amazes/saddens me...

Discussion in 'Racquets' started by nickb, Jun 5, 2008.

  1. nickb

    nickb Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2006
    Messages:
    6,292
    Players (outside this board LOL) really need to be educated on rackets and strings...most players I have come across (both in league matches, stringing and coaching) dont have a clue about equipment and in some cases it is negatively affecting their games. Here are some comments I got/have heard in the last month:

    - Player using 250g racket picks up my 350 gram head light racket and says..."wow this thing is light...how do you use it"...I reply that most of the weight is in the handle but they dont understand.
    - Player using 250g HH racket comments on how my racket feels like a hammer...I go on to explain that its just heavier than their racket but most of the weight is at the handle...they dont understand.
    - Player using a PD OS asks for 50lbs string tension because they " have a control racket and string for power".
    - Complete beginner using Volkl T10 VE Mid asks for 65+ tension because the racket is too powerful :shock:
    - People think strings break because of bad stringing (even when they last 3 years).
    - People laugh when you say your strings only last 6 hours...they say "stringer error".
    -Guy I know picked up an O3 Silver because a shop owner told him the more expensive the racket is the better the graphite is. :shock:
    - Beginner buys K90 because fed uses it.
    - Beginner asks for more control and his stringer (not me!) puts in full poly at over 60lbs.

    I could go on and on...

    I just feel bad when I see 15 year olds using 120sqin rackets and hitting the fences, old people with bad arms using full poly, beginners using K90s, people not even demoing stuff and shop owners/strings reccomending the wrong stuff to innocent people.

    You can also look at my recent "I have a customer using full poly at 70 and he has tennis elbow" thread.

    People sometimes seem reluctant to listen to those that know best...i.e me..the stringer, racket salesman and tennis nut!

    I guess this is more of a rant...

    Thoughts?

    Nick
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2008
    #1
  2. jazar

    jazar Professional

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2007
    Messages:
    1,171
    Location:
    London
    totally agree. when i'm not at uni i work selling rackets and some people's lack of knowledge is shocking. they generally think the opposite of what the truth is. the majority of the time i spend with customers is educating them and correcting their misconceptions
     
    #2
  3. nickb

    nickb Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2006
    Messages:
    6,292
    Its funny how some people just wont listen though isnt it?

    Older people seem to be worst.

    I guess all we can do is try our best to explain and then it is up to them. Its like smoking...we can go on about the dangers all day long..but do people stop..no.
     
    #3
  4. VGP

    VGP Legend

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2005
    Messages:
    6,311
    Location:
    Location: Location
    That's all well and good and knowing about gear is great, but when someone that:

    - doesn't care about gear
    - uses "substandard" gear
    - picks up any old demo
    - obviously carries a plethora of different frames in their bag of widely varied specs and stringing
    - uses a wooden racket
    - uses a broom, shovel, or frying pan

    ....kicks your arse, you'll be humbled.
     
    #4
  5. nickb

    nickb Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2006
    Messages:
    6,292
    Oh I have been beaten many times by 5.0 + players who dont care and use anything that has strings in.

    Im talking about the players that should care because its affecting their games in a negative way or they have tennis elbow because of the strings/racket or they think the racket is powerful and its not etc. Mostly lower level players really. Also pro shops, stores and stringers need to be better educated because they can injure people giving bad advice.

    Nick
     
    #5
  6. VGP

    VGP Legend

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2005
    Messages:
    6,311
    Location:
    Location: Location
    Point taken....

    Well, if I recall and you state in your original post that you're a stringer, racket salesman, and tennis nut, all you can do is keep yourself accurately informed and try and pass that knowledge onto others.

    Whether or not people are willing to listen, that's obviously another story and I guess the point of your thread.

    I guess it's all in the delivery.
     
    #6
  7. nickb

    nickb Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2006
    Messages:
    6,292
    Yeah...I mean alot of people will listen and take the advice but a small number just refuse or think they know best...I guess it applies to everyday life....people do what they want (even if its not the right thing to do).

    It just interests me!

    Nick
     
    #7
  8. Nellie

    Nellie Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2004
    Messages:
    3,773
    They question is how much do you want to educate people who do not want your advice. No one beleives that lesser strings have more power :(
     
    #8
  9. nickb

    nickb Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2006
    Messages:
    6,292
    I only give advice if people ask for it, are paying me to string rackets or are buying a racket from me.

    I dont go around shouting at people playing tennis!

    Nick
     
    #9
  10. jazar

    jazar Professional

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2007
    Messages:
    1,171
    Location:
    London
    i like to tell everyone i meet, even those not interested in tennis
     
    #10
  11. nickb

    nickb Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2006
    Messages:
    6,292
    ^LOL.

    10 char
     
    #11
  12. goober

    goober Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2004
    Messages:
    8,491
    "Hey baby, you come around here often? I can hook you up with lux big banger for 15 dollah, no joke. It feel like heaven for at least 2 hours I promise!"

    SLLLAAAPPP!!!
     
    #12
  13. Pro_Tour_630

    Pro_Tour_630 Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2004
    Messages:
    5,154
    Location:
    Connecticut
    Not some players lack of knowledge but Pro players lack of knowledge as well to a certain extent.

    nick, fact is you know more about strings etc... than ATP and WTA pros,

    there are some folks here that know more about gear than even ATP and WTA players. They know how to play, we are geeks.........

    what amazes me is that some here know so much about gear that forumers relate your knowledge with how well you play. You do not have to be a top 100 player to know your stuff.
     
    #13
  14. nickb

    nickb Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2006
    Messages:
    6,292
    Yeah...good point...a good stringer does not have to be a good tennis player...just like the best coaches are not always the best players.

    I string for ATP players...they take my advice and listen to every word I say..its nice to be listened to and respected by such good players!

    Nick
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2008
    #14
  15. Pleepers

    Pleepers Professional

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2007
    Messages:
    890
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    For most of those players who are playing with racquets/strings that are totaly not in their best interest...its simply because they either don't care enough to learn about equipment or they don't think that the equipment has much of an impact on their game.

    I figure: don't get frustrated with the ignorant--just laugh at their stupidity (life's too short) :)
     
    #15
  16. goober

    goober Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2004
    Messages:
    8,491
    I must hang out with a lot of gear head club players. We all string our own racquets, we are into specs and talk about something related to gear or stringing every time to meet. Now if we could only improve our actual tennis playing skills:x
     
    #16
  17. fortunecookiesjc

    fortunecookiesjc Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2008
    Messages:
    779
    A lot of people ask me why I use so many of the same racquets.

    Though Ive just begun getting very serious about tennis team always ask me why use such a small headsize racquet.
     
    #17
  18. Caloi

    Caloi Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2008
    Messages:
    633
    Location:
    Earth
    Well, for some of us tennis was just something else to do, be it in P.E. or something my brother and I could do during summer break. We'd play with whatever was in the garage and I couldn't tell you what they were 25 years ago.

    Now, I'm putting a lot of time into tennis, trying to improve, and have realized the n5 my brother gave my last winter isn't the right racqet for me so I ordered a Dunlop M-Fil 200 16X19. I was clueless but a nice gentleman from the boards and the leader of the local league I'm in called to talk about racquets. After our discussion and doing a lot of reading I was able to make a much more educated decision.

    I've fly fished since I was 6, 30 years now. I can tell you every spec of pretty much every fly rod produced in the last 20 years. However, I don't ridicule the kid down at the park pond because he's fishing for blue gill with a 12 wt rod. I encourage him by offering some of my flies that may be working that day. I also don't ridicule the people that come to the river dressed freshly from the fly shop with every gadget the shop owner could sell them and watch as they can't cast a fly more than the length of their rod.

    Sure I enjoy talking fishing and rods and gear with fellow fisherman, and even the people that get out to fish twice a year using stuff you'd never find in my closet. But who am I to say they are using the wrong gear?

    If they ask me for advice I'd gladly give it to them. If they didn't want to listen to me or find that spending $600 on a fly rod, let alone $600 for a 3wt, 4wt, and a 5wt rod to round out the collection is a bit overkill, well, so be it.

    I'd rather see people out on the rivers, fishing per the regulations, knowing they've just helped fund the Colorado Fish and Game, than see them not fish because the gear their grandfather gave them isn't really helping them cast 90 feet of fly line.

    I also like to talk about tennis since I've become fairly obsessed with it in the last couple years. However, to read your post makes me a little uneasy. Just because I don't know every spec about the popular racquets doesn't make me any more ingorant than you not knowing the exact taper and action of a 7' 9" Granger bamboo fly rod. Or that it was significantly different than the 8' rod that came out the next year.


    Don't feel sorry for:
    because maybe to them they are having a blast and it's just about the experience of being out there. Heck, my 6 year old son said just being on a tennis court was one of the coolest things he'd done.

    If the above mentioned people ask for a correction, then lead them down the path to the tennis utopia. Until then, let them have some fun. Really, it's just hitting a ball back and forth across a net, right?
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2008
    #18
  19. swedechris

    swedechris Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2004
    Messages:
    1,072
    oh yes..

    good to hear that there are some others also feeling bit of this thing .. man , some guys are so out of tune with what is a rackets strengths and /or weaknesses.

    and i do also find that it is pretty hard to make those who have ideas of their own, to really listen and understand,it does
    seem they think they will look stupid and lose face.

    but it is worth the 'fight ' , to see a well deserved smile on patient and trusting racketswinger after doing some modifications suited to the particular strokes and play of that 'racket patient' in question .. is a nice gratification.:)
     
    #19
  20. nickb

    nickb Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2006
    Messages:
    6,292
    I think you have taken my post the wrong way...I dont think everybody has the wrong gear...I am mostly talking about people that complain they are hitting long, have tennis elbow, want to take their game to the next level etc.

    Im a tennis coach. I know playing tennis is about hitting the ball and having fun. I just dont like it when people are given bad advice. Im sorry my post made you "uneasy".

    I think you need to lighten up a bit...my post was just to start a discussion on a topic that I find very interesting...I dont go around telling people what to do...I coach tennis, play tennis, string rackets and help people when they need help. Words like "ridicule" only confirm that you got the wrong end of the stick here.

    My point is people should be given better info at the tennis shop and from the racket companies. I am a big supporter of companies like vantage who help the customer pick something that is right for them and give the correct advice.

    EDIT: Also I find the whole fly fishing thing in a tennis thread very strange!
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2008
    #20
  21. nickb

    nickb Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2006
    Messages:
    6,292
    Yeah...good post...I know what you mean...its nice to get a customer come back saying my stringjob got rid of tennis elbow or played great....some people are very out of tune I agree.

    Nick
     
    #21
  22. Pro_Tour_630

    Pro_Tour_630 Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2004
    Messages:
    5,154
    Location:
    Connecticut
    do not mind Tom, he mistook the TT forum for the FF forum :)
     
    #22
  23. nickb

    nickb Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2006
    Messages:
    6,292
    LOL...seems that way :p
     
    #23
  24. fortunecookiesjc

    fortunecookiesjc Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2008
    Messages:
    779
    I used to have such huge arguments with this one kid i play with on the team. Telling me that Lighter racquets are all around better than heavier racquets. He uses some prince racquet that weights liek 9.0 oz and argues with me i should use lighter racquets and that my 12oz racquets suck and are not worth playing with

    Talking about my k90, 6.1 classic and my 6.0 original 85.

    Not many know about Grips and the difference between them. When people ask me what i use they always reply with the udder most confused look " what in the gods name is semi western grip?"
    did you just make that up?
     
    #24
  25. ollinger

    ollinger Legend

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2004
    Messages:
    6,137
    nick
    What else "saddens" you....
     
    #25
  26. nickb

    nickb Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2006
    Messages:
    6,292
    I think most of use on here that use heavier frames will get people picking them up saying "how the hell do you use that..its like a baseball bat"!
     
    #26
  27. BullDogTennis

    BullDogTennis Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2008
    Messages:
    2,216
    Location:
    Big Orange Nation
    where can i buy that grip? :)
     
    #27
  28. nickb

    nickb Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2006
    Messages:
    6,292
    Bit random?....

    Your posts!
     
    #28
  29. nickb

    nickb Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2006
    Messages:
    6,292
    I remember that thread! Good times :)
     
    #29
  30. dylanm_12

    dylanm_12 New User

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2007
    Messages:
    95
    Location:
    up there in south....west texas
    haha ya i have a real uneducated friend at tennis.
    My proof that he is uneducated is that he thought my friends K90, the o3 white, and the speedport black.
    Kinda confuses me. He made himself look so dumb we he was arguing about the o3 white
     
    #30
  31. herosol

    herosol Professional

    Joined:
    May 29, 2007
    Messages:
    1,184
    good post. some people just confuse me.
    the best one i've heard recently is.

    "man this pure drive sure is flexible and comfortable."
    -anonymous tennis-elbow stricken player

    yeuppp.
    But one thing heavier is not always better. Heavy frames are nice, but recently ive come to appreciate lighter ones around 11 oz-11.5 oz
     
    #31
  32. king of swing

    king of swing Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2007
    Messages:
    328
    Location:
    chicago
    HAHA, I get that from the guys on my team to. I put some lead tape on my LM rad and everyones like "why did you make it heavier, doesn't that make it worse?" Another kid comes up to me as says, right after I broke my strings "Hey go to Nathan (our string kid on the team) he'll give you hybrid strings!" i said "What you got on yours?" he replies "I don't know, They're Hybrid though!" and he walks off with a self satisfied grin.

    Now Honestly, He can whoop me, but still. At least care enough to learn the basics! Oh and my favorite is people ranting over a babolat saying it so amazing and when I ask which one and whats good about it the look at me confused and say. "A BABOLAT, you know its racket dumby!" and look like the just taught me something. :evil: Annoying!
     
    #32
  33. Tennisman912

    Tennisman912 Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2008
    Messages:
    487
    Location:
    NW Ohio
    nickb,

    The sad truth is, that most people are just lazy and are not open to new ideas. They think they know and they consider asking or taking advice as making them look unintelligent, which of course is untrue. Human nature makes people want to think they know what they are talking about.

    And unfortunately it will never improve and in many instances is actually getting worse. All you can do is try to help when asked and just let the rest pass you by (with a little chuckle under your breath of course). Human nature does not change.

    And no I not a pessimist, just realistic.

    Good tennis

    TM
     
    #33
  34. Kaptain Karl

    Kaptain Karl Hall Of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2004
    Messages:
    5,236
    Location:
    The High Country of Colorado
    The Flip Side

    Then there are the Tennis Shop owners:

    "Biff" was a good Div I player ... ranked in the state ... now a solid 4.5. He knows tennis, and he know the technology. But Biff is in the business for the money, so each and every patron who walks into the store is shown the Top Shelf frames first ... no matter what they really want or need. Only about 30% of Biff's customers are repeat customers. The others realize they got burned and don't go back ... and they warn all their friends about Biff.

    "Bob" is a really nice guy who loves tennis so much he decided to get into the business when he was looking for something to do in retirement. Bob doesn't play nearly as much as he did when he didn't own the shop, but he's still in one 3.5 league and he tries his best to stay current on the technology. The problems are ...

    a) Bob carries only Wilson, Prince and Babolat frames. About 20% of his prospects want other frames.

    b) Being a 3.5, Bob isn't really able to give sound advice on equipment to anyone from mid-varsity on the local HS team ... and up. (But that doesn't stop him from trying....)

    "Beth and Bev" were top NCAA players and are both highly ranked in the Open Division in the Region. One of the local shop owners wanted to retire ... and they bought his business from him. They know "just enough to be dangerous" about most frames ... little about strings ... very little about grips ... and nothing about customizing frames for particular playing preferences. But they are really nice and enthusiastic and charge too much for stringing

    SOLUTION:

    www.tennis-warehouse.com
    800 - 883 - 6647

    Yea!!!

    - KK
     
    #34
  35. 2nd_Serve

    2nd_Serve Professional

    Joined:
    May 26, 2008
    Messages:
    1,225
    I have to agree on this. But for me, it doesn't amaze or sadden me...It really pisses me off. I hate how people that don't know anything act like they know everything
     
    #35
  36. anirut

    anirut Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2005
    Messages:
    5,099
    Location:
    Krungthep (Bangkok), Siam (Thailand)
    KK,

    That's THE LAUGH OF THE DAY!!!

    ROFLMAO !!!
     
    #36
  37. timsims

    timsims New User

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2005
    Messages:
    97
    Location:
    Eastern NC
    I have to admit that I let this bother me too much. I wish I could just "laugh at their stupidity" but I can't. The beginners and naive players look up to those that have more actual tennis talent and they will listen to what they say or look at the equipment that they use and assume that it's "gospel".

    One day in our tennis club, a local 4.5 player who is looked up to by many of our lower level players said, "Anyone who plays with a racquet that weighs more than 11 ounces is an idiot."

    Meanwhile, one of our ladies who was stricken so badly with tennis elbow that she was going to stop playing is happily playing, learning, and advancing her game with her Pro Kennex 5G. (How idiotic!)
     
    #37
  38. ODYSSEY Mk.4

    ODYSSEY Mk.4 Professional

    Joined:
    May 29, 2008
    Messages:
    907
    Location:
    Redlands, California
    i got a guy in his mid fifty who swear the lower the tension the more control and he argues with me every time and it sucks since when something goes wrong... who's the first to blame even though you told them other wise it really.. grinds my gears
    but i share your frustration
     
    #38
  39. Caloi

    Caloi Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2008
    Messages:
    633
    Location:
    Earth
    Sorry for the rant. I was using something I am passionate about, fly fishing, to draw a similarity to something you are obviously passionate about, tennis. My knowledge of fly fishing is probably at a level of what your tennis knowledge is, that's what I was getting at.

    Again, sorry for the long winded fly fishing rant.

    In defense of the uneducated folks, since I was uneducated on racquets as recently as last Friday, it really is overwhelming. When I asked for advice regarding the n5 given to me it was pretty quickly dismissed as the wrong racquet for me. WTH did I know? It was farily expensive when purchased new and was free to me. I figured it was a decent racquet.

    When I began shopping for a racquet I assumed the $200+ racquets were what I was looking for. Instead I spent $69 here at TW and have a really nice racquet (M-Fil200) that will better suit my game. Most industries and sports you should kind of expect to pay a premium on the gear since new technology comes at a cost to the consumer. Little did I know that I could get a decent racquet for under $70! Imagine doing that with golf clubs?!

    Now, I've seen the light, and if someone asked me why they were constantly hitting the ball long and I suggested they get away from the n5 they were playing with since it's a head heavy, light weight racquet and they told me to pee up a rope I'd consider them hard headed. SO, I do see your point.

    Again, sorry for going off earlier as I was just trying to form an anology.

    Tom
     
    #39
  40. Political Thunder

    Political Thunder Rookie

    Joined:
    May 3, 2008
    Messages:
    136
    My rally partners are like that. All use HH OS racquets and im the only one using a HL Mid. They use strings till it breaks ~1-2 years, balls till the felt comes off, etc.
     
    #40
  41. crazytennis

    crazytennis Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2008
    Messages:
    437
    I went to the courts this day and this guy(around 60) was playing there. I had hit with his partner before and we talked for a while. The guy wanted me to string one of his old racquets at 75 because he wanted more power.
    I was in a hurry that day and didn't take his racquet and haven't met him since.
     
    #41
  42. itsstephenyo

    itsstephenyo Rookie

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2007
    Messages:
    341
    Worst thing I've seen is an older guy brought a cracked racquet for me to string. This thing was barely even holding together. He kept insisting and hinting that it'd be OK to string. In the end, I just flat out refused to string it.

    The thing that annoys me the most is when people really generalize racquets. A friend of mine was getting a new racquet. I asked him which one. He replied, "Oh, a Wilson." Oh, OK. Thanks.That's great information. That's like telling me you drive a Ford. A Ford what?!?! There are several different models. It seems like they all do that. "I use a Head Flexpoint." Flexpoint what?
     
    #42
  43. Snuh

    Snuh Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2008
    Messages:
    130
    Location:
    California
    Yeah a lot of people around here think that in order to be a better player you have to get the most expensive racquet you can find. Like those $299 monster racquets. I try to explain those are granny racquets but they dont understand. More expensive is better right? :-?
     
    #43
  44. jazar

    jazar Professional

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2007
    Messages:
    1,171
    Location:
    London
    the best one is when a couple of people come in together and one of them knows nothing and the other knows nothing, but thinks he knows everything and starts telling his friend about all the rackets. i love listening to what those kind of people say, its complete b***s***.

    had this kid and his mum come into the shop one time. kid used a babolat contest lite and was utterly useless, could barely hit the ball and he wanted to have his rackets strung in natural gut. he was just insisting, but i managed to get through to his mum. they left and came back the next day and for some strange reason she bought him a k61 team.

    another kid came in with his mum and 2 brothers looking for a racket to play tennis at school. he picked up a k90 and kept on saying he wanted that one and his mum was saying why dont you ask for some help. when he eventually asked me and i told him about the k90 he got all embarrassed and ended up with a much better racket for him in the k61 lite. at least he was receptive to my advice
     
    #44
  45. smO

    smO Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2008
    Messages:
    630
    Location:
    Finland
    Yea, its annoying. When I asked my friend which one he bought he just said: It's an orange Wilson... And my other friend has played with a Wilson Roger Federer 27 (This is one of those Wal-mart frames)
    for a year and I always tell him to get a new one and I show him some cheap 80-100euro frames, and he just says that he won't need that expensive 'cause he just plays once a week.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2008
    #45
  46. jmverdugo

    jmverdugo Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2006
    Messages:
    2,971
    Location:
    Houston, TX
    Sometimes, ignorance is happiness
     
    #46
  47. Murray_Maniac

    Murray_Maniac Banned

    Joined:
    May 23, 2008
    Messages:
    899
    Yea I hate that. It reminded me how in another way that I hate generalization. I used to be a fishing freak before I got into tennis and I'd hate it when ppl just say "fish" instead of the species name. You dont go to the zoo and say: "Oh, look at that pretty mammal!". Ppl are so lazy w/ fish naming, but not reptiles and mammals.

    Oh yea, and I hate how ppl assume that racquets really range in lengths because of the design. Their all the same size!!!
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2008
    #47
  48. bad_call

    bad_call Legend

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2006
    Messages:
    5,446
    racquets do range in length from the jr's size to the extended.

    anyway back to the thread: how bout those certain tennis shop salesmen that try to push a racquet model on you (probably cause they have an overstock) without even seeing or talking to you about your game.
     
    #48
  49. Murray_Maniac

    Murray_Maniac Banned

    Joined:
    May 23, 2008
    Messages:
    899
    No, I mean like ppl assuming that the Prince tour Diablo is longer than the Pdr only because the throat is longer. But, their both 27''.
     
    #49
  50. nickb

    nickb Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2006
    Messages:
    6,292
    Yeah that happens all the time...

    I used to work in a pro shop where the manager would try and force us to sell people ncodes because the K Factors are coming in soon or the O3s because the speed ports arrived in a week. I just quit...I got sick of the manager trying to push stuff on people when they didnt want it or need it.


    Nick
     
    #50

Share This Page