Someone please explain the science behind poly strung super low

Discussion in 'Strings' started by kchau, Jul 24, 2011.

  1. kchau

    kchau Semi-Pro

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    I have issue using poly at 53lb, let alone 50lb. i have to use it at 56 for me to actually keep the ball in.

    how are you people stringing it at 40 and 30?

    some peole are saying that its low power at 30, but it doenst make sense, and even then, it would seem like the launch angle would be extremely high.

    what is the science behind it?
     
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  2. BobFL

    BobFL Hall of Fame

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    Racquet head speed is the key. People who complain about low tensions and who need polys strung at 60+ have old school technique and cannot generate speed needed for that type of a game. Like I said many times, polys are not for everyone.
     
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  3. Up&comer

    Up&comer Hall of Fame

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    The key is indeed racket head speed and sound fundamental technique. You have to have lots of fundamentally sound racket head speed which makes the ball stay on longer which makes it still launch around the same height.

    The real thing that people don't think about is that in order to gain from poly strings, you have to make them bend to get real use out of them.

    When people string low, the string is easier to bend and thus people realize what people have been raving about with the insane spin.

    The newly found spin is just a result of them being able to bend the strings more or just simply bend the strings period.

    You need lots of fundamentally sound racket head speed to get any use out of poly.
     
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  4. got spin?

    got spin? Banned

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    The string dosent help you generate more spin, it does have affect as soon as your racket head speed is fast enough. String will do absolutely nothing for you if you dont swing low to high with racket head speed. If you have enough RHS then the string will act as a "rubber band" snapping the ball forward with more spin.
     
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  5. BobFL

    BobFL Hall of Fame

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    I would just like to add that these 2 are not mutually inclusive. You can have sound technique but low-mid racquet head speed. I personally know quite a few player with very fine technique but their game just don't need or won't benefit from polys and that is perfectly fine.
     
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  6. kchau

    kchau Semi-Pro

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    so how do i know if i would benefit from trying low strung poly?
     
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  7. TonyB

    TonyB Hall of Fame

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    The feel of a soft poly at 30 lb. is unbeatable. It just feels "solid". Then you sit back and watch the ball do amazing things without changing your strokes at all.

    Much credit to Chris from TW for popularizing the use of poly at low tensions on this forum. I was converted immediately after hitting with this setup only once.

    Fact is, I've actually let the strings drop in tension and have been playing with the same stringbed for over a month. Sure, the tension is lower, and I have lost a bit of spin and control, but the stringbed is still playable with very little adjustment to my strokes. Yes, there is a point at which the tension loss becomes too great, but it's pretty obvious when that happens.
     
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  8. rufusbgood

    rufusbgood Semi-Pro

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    What racquet are you using?
     
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  9. kchau

    kchau Semi-Pro

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    k61 95
    10char
     
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  10. Anton

    Anton Hall of Fame

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    Not exactly, yes you need head speed(or at least a ball coming in at an angle), but for same head speed you should get more spin with poly (+ ~20%), as observed here:

    http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/stringmovement.php


    Key to playing with low tension poly? Western grip and putting a lot of spin on the ball.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2011
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  11. babar

    babar Semi-Pro

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    I have been playing with low tension polys and really like it. The feeling of the ball sinking in the stringbed is what I like the best. I do get more spin and power with this set-up as well. I have not had to really change my strokes for it and I have pretty basic modern strokes. I generate good racquet head speed also, but I can hit the ball flat with this string set-up also. It just "feels" better when the ball hits the strings.

    In terms of science, all I can say is that greater ball pocketing allows me to "feel" my shots better. This "feel" allows me to control my shots with greater consistency.

    Now, for me, this sense of "feel" makes all the difference.

    POG OS with RPM Blast 18g at 45lbs.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2011
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  12. TonyB

    TonyB Hall of Fame

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    Incorrect. I use a semi-western, leaning more towards eastern, and I get plenty of spin and pace on my shots. I have not changed my grip or my stroke mechanics at all since switching to low tension poly (30 lb.).
     
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  13. Anton

    Anton Hall of Fame

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    what racket?
     
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  14. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

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    You don't need a western. I was playing with full poly strung low for a while and I liked it a lot. It is still a stiff string and the reality is that I can't do it anymore and need to hybrid just for a softer stringbed.

    there are benefits to both tensions..just matters what you like..I do enjoy hitting a little more through the court now with higher tensions again.
     
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  15. edwincen

    edwincen Rookie

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    I don't know how your guys can strung it so low, my shot always goes long if the strung tensioned below 50 with poly
     
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  16. kchau

    kchau Semi-Pro

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    monday bump
     
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  17. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

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    Thats just a silly question. No one knows but you. Try it out. As long as you hit hard and with spin you will be fine..if you do not, than poly is a waste of your time anyway.
     
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  18. kchau

    kchau Semi-Pro

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    just strung up spiky 1.20mm at 35lb. just hitting against the wall it feels amazing, so much ball pocketing, and feel.

    this is the science i was looking for, and it confirmed my thoughts on a hypothesis with the energy return being a bell curve:


     
    #18
  19. ace_it_96

    ace_it_96 Rookie

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    the lower the tension the less friction there is between main and cross strings. With that smaller amount of friction it makes the main strings slide out of alignment to grip the ball then click back into place creating more top spin on the ball, and with more topspin you can hit harder and still have the ball land in
     
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  20. CDestroyer

    CDestroyer Professional

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    Djokovic plays with 60 pounds tension lately for mains and crosses on a 18 X 20 racquet pattern. Low tension for poly string is a preference that works for some others prefer tight strings for maximum control especially when facing hard hitting players.

    I prefer 60 pounds tension after playing with 50 and 55 pounds for a few weeks.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2011
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  21. kchau

    kchau Semi-Pro

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    this is interesting, because the dwell time at 35lb full poly, is close to the dwell time of full gut at 60lb.

    I'm really curious to go out to see what my stringed does after seeing all this new information.
     
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  22. kchau

    kchau Semi-Pro

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    so i gave it a try, and i have to say. just GOBS of spin, i could drop balls almost straight down at the baseline, and there was no vibrations at all, no arm pain even from a stiff first gen poly.

    however there is a downside, when you lose tension, you lose pop, i found myself having to swing harder and harder to get pace out of it. hopefully using bhbr will solve this problem.

    my serves suffered though, i lost some directional control on my serve.
     
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  23. ethebull

    ethebull Rookie

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    Here's a solid article on the topic.

    http://ggtennis.wordpress.com/2011/03/17/the-definitive-guide-to-stringing-polys-and-co-polys/

    For my 2 cents, I have enjoyed full poly anywhere from 56 down to 44 pounds. It all depends on the play characteristics of the string. Thinner more powerful strings in the high range, low powered stiff ones work best quite low for me. I have also played with Kevlar hybrids, and would think guys that like poly upwards of 60 might do well to go that route. No trampoline with Kevlar no matter how low the tension.
     
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  24. Tennis Is Magic

    Tennis Is Magic Semi-Pro

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    I have plenty of racquet head speed, and use more topspin than anyone I've ever played against, and I wouldn't dare string a poly below 55 in my current racquet; even with poly at 60, it's powerful. The point of using poly is to get LESS power. If you string a racquet in the low 40s, then what is the point of using a poly in the first place? If anything, it's the guys who string poly at <45 that shouldn't be using poly.

    Also, you're telling me juniors who string at 60+ have "old school technique" and the geezers here who've been playing since the era of wooden racquets generate massive racquet head speed to control it? Give me a break. That is one of the stupidest posts you've ever made, and we're all less intelligent as human beings for having seen it.

    [​IMG]
     
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  25. martini1

    martini1 Hall of Fame

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    Another thing with low tension poly is that the drop tension noticeablly quick and they start to slide all over the place without the snap back. Mains on the outside are like dead strings in no time. The lowest I tried was 48 gut, much more playable in 15 hrs than poly at 53. Go figure.
     
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  26. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

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    You went way overboard with that, and the tasteless quote you put out there is pathetic.

    Considering Davydenko strings in the 40s (sometimes lower than 45) I am not sure you know enough about the subject to insult someone's opinion.

    The other factor you miss is that low tension poly does not get very powerful like other strings when strung low. It just retains it's elasticity a lot longer and the angle the ball comes off the strings is higher. Go ahead and string the 60's if you want to change your strings every 2-3 hours..I don't see a thing wrong with that either, but if you hit with as much topspin as you claim, it would not be needed.

    Last time I checked Nada plays with an extremely powerful stick and strings at 55#s. I seriously doubt you hit with 1/2 the amount of spin with him and yet you need to be at 60#s to control your powerful racquet? LOL.

    Go ahead and drop in the 20-30#s full poly tension thread and tell the OP he shouldn't use poly. I'm sure you will be warmly received.
     
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  27. Tennis Is Magic

    Tennis Is Magic Semi-Pro

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    Just like there are pros who string full poly at 60+, but examples like Federer and Davydenko who string low are relatively few compared to pros who string poly high.

    Doesn't get more powerful? Sure, make a video of yourself hitting with poly at 40 and poly at 60, and you'll see how much more depth you have, it's shocking. Full poly at 40 = my rally shots landing near the baseline or, more often, long. Poly at 60 = my ball landing on the service line to 3/4ths court. I'd rather have the ball bounce short than long. And I DO change strings about that often anyways 'cause after 3 hours, my strings are nearly broken, and I don't have much choice either way, and if anything, that would mean I have to string HIGHER than him to control my shots because I don't hit with as much spin as Nadal. Please, use your flawed logic more. It makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2011
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  28. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

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    Don't take everything so personal. Seems like every post you make is filled with some kind of anger. Reread how you posted to Bob for an example.

    You said you could not imagine hitting at under 55#s yet you use heavy topspin.

    I am saying right now that if you hit with as much heavy spin as you claim, it would not be an issue. You just have to adjust.

    You just admitted that you do not hit with as much spin as Nadal, but you would prefer to have the ball bounce on the service line anyway? Most people prefer depth. I hit with heavy top and I know I do. To me that is flawed logic.

    It is also just a matter of time before your joints start complaining. IMO, 60#s full poly is a sign that you need to make a stroke adjustment. I fail to believe you could not do what you are doing now at 55#s.

    The other thing is that the power level of poly can drop at lower tensions. That is the other thing you do not understand. It has been documented multiple times and is pretty common knowledge.

    I don't need to video my strokes to know what low tension poly is like. I hit with it plenty. It is a fantasy for guys who hit like you to be honest. You just have to try it out for yourself and give it an hour or so to adjust. You may love it..you may hate it..but it is not uncontrollable once you figure it out.

    I got the same depth after the adjustment. Honestly. Poly is a weird string and you can't write off low tensions and other people's opinions because on it like you are doing.
     
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  29. Rogael Naderer

    Rogael Naderer Semi-Pro

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    Do you really play tennis? Give me or any of my opponents a ball there and it's point over more than 50% of the time.
     
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  30. Tennis Is Magic

    Tennis Is Magic Semi-Pro

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    10charrrrr
     
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  31. Rogael Naderer

    Rogael Naderer Semi-Pro

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    Unless of course you are hitting amazing angles, in which case, too good.:)

    In any case if you are winning and your body is comfortable with it, enjoy.
     
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  32. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

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    For documentation, see John Elliot, a master stringer who strings for pros.

    I wish more guys I played hit short balls..it takes so much energy to use that spin and the "low margin of error" is not that low when you don't rip the ball enough and it drops right into the strike zone.

    We have even seen Nadal flatten his game out a lot more lately due to this.

    But everyone plays a different way.
     
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  33. Tennis Is Magic

    Tennis Is Magic Semi-Pro

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    I've never found hitting topspin tiring, even in very long matches (2 1/2+ hours).
     
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  34. kchau

    kchau Semi-Pro

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    tennis is magic: go look at the charts i have posted on the first page. they are made by the tw professor, and from what i have tested so far follows.

    the energy return or "pop" at 35lb of poly equates to the energy return and "pop" at around 56lb.
    the energy return of most strings is not linearly related to the tension. its a square function with the peak at around 50lb, and the stiffness is a cubic function.

    i understand where you are coming from and i was just as skeptical as you. all i can tell you is that i tried it and it took me by surprise. i was expecting my racquet to turn into a catapult but it wasn't. there was gobs of spin, great control, and no "excessive power" that one would expect.

    also the string that i used which caused me severe forearm sharp pains at 56, was amazingly comfortable at 35.

    i was super skeptical about all these findings until i saw the charts posted by the tw prof. that was when i decided to try it. i wouldn't have without the science backing.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2011
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  35. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

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    Yeah this is why I don't get what he is saying.

    He claims to get massive racquet head speed and hit with the most spin of anyone he has played with. Yet he could not control low tension poly? It makes zero sense. I can relate to his preference for a tighter stringbed...I too prefer that, but I had no issue with low tension poly in terms of depth and control. It just took me an hour and I got used to it.

    It's just ignorance to tell people who string under 45#s that they shouldn't be using poly to begin with.
     
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  36. CDestroyer

    CDestroyer Professional

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    What tension do you use Power Player?
     
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  37. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

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    I hybrid now. I like 56/58#s or 58/60 depending on the cross.

    Full poly I liked 45-52#s depending on the string.

    When I started with full poly I treated it like Sgut and was at 58-60#s. Was not really so hot after a while. But I didn't want to string every 3 hours or so.
     
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  38. CDestroyer

    CDestroyer Professional

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    So you wouldn't string a poly higher than 52 pounds?
     
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  39. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

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    Full poly? I preferred to keep it under. I hit with heavy topspin and could control the low tensions just fine. I don't like what high tension poly can do to your joints over time if you don't switch it out every 3 hours.

    But I prefer higher tensions in general, so I went back to a hybrid which helps extend the life of the string bed a lot and keep it softer on the joints.
     
    #39
  40. CDestroyer

    CDestroyer Professional

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    So what is your favorite hybrid setup now?
     
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  41. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

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    Black Magic and OG Sheep Micro at 56/60 is so far the king. It doesn't have any string movement which is a nice bonus.

    Black Magic and Mantis Comfort is my favorite softer setup but doesn't last very long.
     
    #41
  42. whomad15

    whomad15 Semi-Pro

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    Same technique here, but I only went from 60lbs to 50lbs. Planning on going in the low 40's on the next string job, it's just so much nicer on the arm.
     
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  43. big bang

    big bang Hall of Fame

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    Im with PP on this one!
    I grew up in a world without magic polyester and back then I strung very tight 60-70 from when I was 15 and on, the older I got the tighter I had to string. I play on clay only and play the typical spanish type of clay court tennis - extreme spin!. When the poly-madness first started I picked a few sets up and strung them like I allways did, played horrible!. I continued using my regular strings but a few years ago I started to string with poly, first medium tension (-10% compared to normal tension) and it played a lot better, lately I began to string at low tension and its so nice, lots of control, massive spin but its not over powered. I have played PB10 mid at 48 lbs, TGK 238.5 at 50 and lots of other frames around that tension. The only one I had to string at 55 lbs was Ozone tour. I even used low powered gut/alu on my TGK´s.

    So point is for heavy spin you need to string gut and other synthetics tight. With poly you dont have to because its so stiff and low powered that I sometimes feel I got too much spin out of it. Lots of pros and other very good players use polys at low tension.

    Makes me wonder what level TIM plays at to come with a statement like that.
     
    #43
  44. pyrokid

    pyrokid Hall of Fame

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    I think TIM might be thinking that the string has more power at low tensions because the launch angle is just higher which makes his shots land deeper.
     
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  45. big bang

    big bang Hall of Fame

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    Yes hes not hitting enough topspin LOL:)
     
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  46. Tennis Is Magic

    Tennis Is Magic Semi-Pro

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    Either way, I'd still like my shots to land at about 3/4ths court. It's much more manageable to do that at 60 than 40.
     
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  47. kchau

    kchau Semi-Pro

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    try 30.

    very manageable.
     
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  48. Tennis Is Magic

    Tennis Is Magic Semi-Pro

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    Like it's ignorance to say poly should never be strung over 55, like almost everyone here claims? Apparently, it's only ignorance if you go against the grain.

    Could I control it a poly at 45? In the right racquet, yeah. In a 500 Tour, that's a bigger ask. But would I play optimally? No, I would not. I tried using a poly in a match once, at 40 pounds, and I played abysmal tennis, with serves and aggressive cuts at the ball missing by feet, not inches. Switch to a racquet strung at 60, and guess what? I win the second set. Lose the tiebreaker, but that was my experience. Missing balls by a foot and more, or hitting ground strokes and serves 5 feet in. You can insult me all you want, I wish I could say I expected more from middle-aged men, but that's MY preference, and when other people impose their preferences, it's okay, but when I do, it's blasphemy. I think some of you need to take your heads out of your self-righteous asses.

    I will definitely try 30, despite the fact I played some of the worst tennis I've put on the court in years using a poly at 40. Makes so much sense.
     
    #48
  49. ElMagoElGato

    ElMagoElGato Rookie

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    Forget about 30 or 40. It's more important that low tension makes balls higher because of larger bent angle. And nobody says low tension is less power. The result is obvious. You never land the ball inside the baseline. Some people can adjust the angle, then they're all right. If not, forget it.
     
    #49
  50. Tennis Is Magic

    Tennis Is Magic Semi-Pro

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    You're right, some people in this thread say lower tension = less power.
     
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