Sports drinks and gels

Discussion in 'Health & Fitness' started by crosscourt, Jun 7, 2012.

  1. pvaudio

    pvaudio Legend

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    My friend, you are simply wrong and very much so for saying that others are. Your ideal sports drink would consist of 4 things: simple carbohydrates, complex carbohydrates, BCAAs and electrolytes. Why? It takes time for complex carbs and protein to be converted into fuel. When your body is at max performance, you are not concerned with rebuilding muscle. You are concerned with flushing out lactic acid and having a supply of energy ready for your muscles. For cellular operation to function properly, you need the electrolytes. For long term protein synthesis, you need your BCAAs (hence why they are typically in recovery drinks rather than sport drinks). For long term energy, you need complex carbohydrates.

    However, to get out of a slump, you NEED simple sugars. There is no way around it. Your brain and muscles need glycogen to function and the faster they get their fuel, the faster your body can start processing everything else into what you'll need for the long term. This is the philosophy behind Accelerade, NUUN (which are electrolyte tablets sans sugar to put in your water), and my personal favorite, Hammer gels. The key is taking these things before you need them. If you crash or bonk, you must supplement with sugar in some form to get your muscles going again. That means take a few swigs of gatorade, throw down a banana and a gel and boom, you're off. BCAAs are not the answer, nor is simple sugar, nor are complex carbs, nor are electrolytes. For higher intensity or endurance training, you must have all four.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2012
    #51
  2. pvaudio

    pvaudio Legend

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    #52
  3. pvaudio

    pvaudio Legend

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    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-491236/A-pint-beer-better-workout-water-say-scientists.html
     
    #53
  4. Ramon

    Ramon Hall of Fame

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    As I state in post #48, I normally eat a high carb meal before a match. I generally find it gives me more than enough carbs to sustain me throughout a match, and with my high blood sugar problems I err on the side of less sugar so I don't develop type II diabetes, which is very common. Carbs are you fuel tank. Fat is your reserve tank. Most of us actually wouldn't mind using up some of our reserves anyway. :)
     
    #54
  5. connico

    connico Rookie

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    Caffeine is a natural drug that stimulate brain function. It is known to boost the effects of the neurotransmitters. This may seem like energy but it is not.

    The human body converts food that contain energy in to energy that our cells use. The issue that Ramon has is, energy production requires food that primarly contains proteins and carbohydrates. BCCA alone does not affect the body's energy source as the body does not convert BCCA into energy. What BCCA does in combination with Proteins is enable the body to consume the energy (converted via proteins) differently affecting the users consumption of the body energy. This why is you get sustain energy in conjunction with other proteins.

    This is why 10g of BCCA does not equal 10g of protein.

    If you want sustaind energy during exercise, its advised that you use BCCA with another source of energy like proteins etc. Water and other types of energy drinks need to be supplimented with food. A continuous source of energy starting with breakfast, lunch and suppliments during the day will keep you covered.

    Drink in sips and stay in the shade when you can.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2012
    #55
  6. Ramon

    Ramon Hall of Fame

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    Even the makers of Xtend do recommend other sources of energy. Here is an excerpt from http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/sv/xtend.html :
    -----------------------
    Q: Are there any other products that will help improve the results I achieve when using Xtend?
    A: Xtend was formulated, and then recently reformulated to remove the need for additional ingredients while you train or compete. However, Xtend was explicitly formulated to contain no carbohydrates or sugar so that you could dictate how you may want to manipulate your carbohydrate needs based upon your training cycle or duration. Therefore, when carbohydrates are desired, combine Xtend with up to 0.45 g of carbohydrate per pound of bodyweight, per hour of exercise. When carbohydrates are added, increase the amount of water used per serving so that the finished formula concentration is easily digestible during exercise.
    --------------------------

    For myself, who needs to stay away from sugar for health reasons, I keep my simple carbs down, and it works fine. If you want to add simple carbs, and you're not concerned about the effects of too much sugar, go for it. Just don't let our First Lady take it away from you, LOL. Personally, I haven't found the type of energy that comes from sugar to be that beneficial. I like the sustained type better.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2012
    #56
  7. albino smurf

    albino smurf Professional

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    For extreme heat (90+ and high humidity) I really pay attention to pre-hydrating well and eating at least 2 hours prior to a match. Diluted sports drink during and coconut water after.
     
    #57
  8. USS Tang

    USS Tang Rookie

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    Coconut juice, aka coconut water/milk. Brand name I like is Jugo de Coco made in Thailand. Comes in 17 oz. cans.
     
    #58
  9. pvaudio

    pvaudio Legend

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    Coconut water and coconut milk are not the same thing by a long shot. Coconut water is what's inside coconuts ala Gilligan's Island and Castaway. Coconut milk is made from soaking grated coconut in water until the fats separate. Coconut water, just as a simple example, has no fat per 8oz cup. Coconut milk, however, has 57g of fat per 8oz cup.
     
    #59
  10. USS Tang

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    I stand corrected.
     
    #60
  11. YK

    YK New User

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    Caffeine has a known pharmacologic diuretic effect. Many believe it is dose dependent and only larger doses do it. I actually think it is true based on personal experience of exposure to high doses. Second aspect is that individual diuretic response may be dependent on person's overall exposure to caffeine. Having said that, a potential diuretic would be the last thing I'd take before expected dehydration of a tennis match. Caffeine, as many above said, provides zero metabolic fuel value.
     
    #61
  12. Ramon

    Ramon Hall of Fame

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    I agree that caffeine has no metabolic value as a fuel for energy, but as a stimulant that helps you stay mentally alert, it's quite effective. Personally, I don't notice a diuretic response from it. Of course, I drink plenty of water during a typical tennis match.

    In the past, I've used a few pre-workout powders that have lots of caffeine in them (among many other ingredients), most notably NO-Xplode and Assault. I actually liked the results on the tennis court. They didn't make me jittery or anything, and I was looking out for that. The only negative side-effect was that if I took them in the late afternoon or evening, I couldn't get any sleep that night. I don't take them anymore, but I can see why they might have some value for tennis players.
     
    #62
  13. YK

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    I only notice diuresis if I consume a lot of it within a short period of time, say 2 cups of strong coffee and some coke close together.

    As far as stimulant part is concerned, it is tricky and highly variable. There is a lot of voodoo here even in hard science as "alertness" is hard to measure objectively. Some of the stuff from scientific standpoint doesn't make sense - it takes up to 45-60 min for it to get fully ingested, yet people report increased alertness within 10 min suggesting placebo effect, while others report decline in alertness 45-60 min after when it should be just at its early peak. Then there is a known tolerance development. What's very hard to measure is how long the effect would last.

    The better studies, although not without flaws, that I've seen were done by the US military and NSW in particular, with a pretty good reasoning to use delivery forms other than ingestion.
     
    #63
  14. crosscourt

    crosscourt Professional

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    Having set this thread off, and having now completed my training, an update. First of all it was very hot weather by my standards. It was 85F in the shade. That is 20 to 25 degrees hotter than it has been at home. In reality the comparison is meaningless because the conditions were so very different from anything I am used to. For the most part it was very sunny. On one day it rained although the temperature didn't drop much if it dropped at all. Most of the time there was no breeze.

    The courts we played on were set in a bowl of land which intensified the heat. To start with we played from 10 until 12 in the morning and then from 2 until 4 in the afternoon. The latter was very demanding and later in my stay I changed the time of my sessions to earlier and later in the day. There were two types of court - clay and green hard courts. The clay were less demanding because they seemed to reflect the heat less.

    There were three challenges - the heat, the intense sunlight, and, when it rained, humidity. The challenges were mental and physical.

    I drank a lot of water. Getting on for 1.5 litres each hour of play by the end of the week. I ate a carbohydrate bar 40 minutes or so before each session. I used SIS isotonic energy gels during play. I ate a lot of bananas after I played and ate a lot of pasta at mealtimes (I know that the are differences of opinion about whether this is a good idea. But I found it was really all I wanted to eat.) I had an espresso before most sessions and really noticed it when I didn't.

    So how did it go? As you will have guessed from my preoccupation with the temperature I found the heat very demanding. That said, when it rained and became very hot and humid I found it much easier. This leads me to think that it is the effect of the direct and very intense sun that is the biggest challenge (I wore a hat and shades). My fellow players, many of whom came from much hotter climes even than those we played in, found the humidity more debilitating than the heat. Not me.

    Initially I didn't drink enough water during the sesssions but I realised that early on. The caffeine in a pre-training espresso really helped with the mental challenge of having to persuade myself to play hard in the sun. I should have taken more gels. They are a physical and mental stimulus on court. I don't know whether the carbohydrate bars made much of a difference. After each session I ate a banana and drank more water as well as having a pasta based meal.

    Overall I coped well enough. I kept moving on court and didn't stiffen up too much between sessions (although the first night I had amazing cramp when I stretched). As some of you suggested I think I may have overlooked what else I could have taken, away from the court, to manage the demands. The are probably supplements I could have taken at mealtimes that might have helped further. But having said that it is the intense sunlight that was the biggest challenge I am not sure that there is anything that can be done about that. I also found the heat of a hard court coming up through my shoes had quite an effect on my ankles and knees. And my feet really swelled up.

    Anyway it was a very enjoyable and productive stay. My tennis had a good test and I learned to really enjoy clay court tennis again. Thanks for all your advice.

    CC
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2012
    #64
  15. charliefedererer

    charliefedererer Legend

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    Thanks for the nice summary of your tennis camp training.


    The USTA sports science section has this summary on nutrition - what do you think of it?

    "Nutrition: Performance Diet Principles for Competitive Tennis
    By Page Love, MS, RD

    1. Drink, Drink, Drink! Drink at least 80 oz. of hydrating fluids per day. Drink before you get thirsty. Replace a liter/hour during play. Sports beverages or water are best on the court; juices, milk, and any other decaffeinated beverages are fine during the day. Sports beverages at 6 - 7% absorb quickly from the stomach during match play, i.e. Gatorade. Fruit juices and sodas should be avoided on the court because of the high sugar concentration. Try to drink before you get thirsty!

    2. Do not starve the muscles of fuel! Eating at least 8-10 servings per day from complex carbohydrate choices will create the base to maintain your muscle glycogen levels. Choose higher fiber options whenever possible - cereals, bread, rice, pasta, etc. Seven a day from fruits and vegetables will meet extra carbohydrate, mineral, and additional fluid needs from food. Choose a wide variety of colors and types of fruits and vegetables daily - something citrus, something deep green, and at least one other red, yellow, or orange choice. Divide these foods into 5-6 small meals.

    3. Eat breakfast everyday! After a ten to twelve hour overnight fast your muscle energy levels are low. It is unfair to expect yourself to perform at a peak without refueling with carbohydrate sources. Many traditional breakfast choices are appropriate choices, i.e. low sugar breakfast cereal, two slices of toast, glass of juice; or, pancakes or waffles, small amount of syrup, fresh fruit, 8 oz. of skim milk. Even if you have not been eating breakfast, try eating a bagel and juice in your car on the way to the court. Starting to eat something again will help to rejuvenate you hunger levels in the morning.

    4. Provide the building blocks of muscle tissue everyday! Complete protein sources like turkey, chicken, tuna, tenderloin, and fresh lean deli meats are needed at at least 4-6 oz. amounts during the day. Choose alternative protein options to meet additional protein needs such as low fat milk, cheese, and cottage cheese, light peanut butter, beans, or tofu at smaller meals to aid in satiety and fullness."

    - http://www.usta.com/Improve-Your-Ga...mance_Diet_Principles_for_Competitive_Tennis/





    It supposedly takes the body a full two weeks to adapt to the heat:

    [​IMG]

    Is this pretty much what you found?
     
    #65
  16. crosscourt

    crosscourt Professional

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    You certainly do acclimatise. Whether at the rate suggested in the graph or not I don't know. My feeling is that the advice above is good advice. (I probably didn't eat as much protein as he suggests.) But it doesn't give you everything you need. My problem was not just playing in high temperatures but playing in much higher temperatures than I was used to. The physical element of this was something I expected. With one or two more aches and pains than I might have hoped for it was quite easy to manage my body. Managing your mind is slightly harder. After three days of playing in the middle of the afternoon I was finding it hard to concentrate. Caffeine definitely helped. As did the prospect of a reward - so the thought that in five minutes I would have a gel and that would give me energy certainly helped my concentration.

    CC
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2012
    #66
  17. JohnnyFive

    JohnnyFive Banned

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    With all due respect, you know very little (I'm being kind so as to not say "absolutely nothing") of the science behind this, so I would refrain if I were you, from making any more of these absurd statements.
     
    #67
  18. Ramon

    Ramon Hall of Fame

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    What are your qualifications? You're coming off like an elitist jerk. If you're that smart, can you please post your published, peer-reviewed, scientific journal articles on the subject?
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2012
    #68
  19. jonnythan

    jonnythan Professional

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    You first.
     
    #69
  20. Ramon

    Ramon Hall of Fame

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    I'm not the one playing the intellectual elitist trying to exclude others from the discussion. That would be yourself, so the onus is on you, not me. BTW, it's against the rules of the forum to be hiding behind 2 identities. You can get yourself banned for that.

    I'm going to make the assumption that since you didn't answer my question, that you are no more qualified than a high school kid failing his science classes. I'm mostly done with this discussion anyway, but I have no need to heed your advice.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2012
    #70
  21. jonnythan

    jonnythan Professional

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    You've spent half this thread saying things like "There's no more need for testimony to your lack of knowledge" and "I think it's a waste of time considering your knowlege base. Bye."

    Now you're challenging someone else to show their credentials but neglecting to share your own?

    Uh huh.
     
    #71
  22. Ramon

    Ramon Hall of Fame

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    If you go back far enough, you're the one who started the whole thing. It's very clear. I'm surprised you're still on the forum with 2 identities. You don't play by the rules.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2012
    #72
  23. jonnythan

    jonnythan Professional

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    What the eff?

    Are you ever right about *anything*? Geez.
     
    #73
  24. JohnnyFive

    JohnnyFive Banned

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    I'll show you mine if you show me yours, jerk.

    You are the one making absurd claims as to the validity (or invalidity) of consuming glucose in a sports drink (or otherwise). So, show me what you have to back it up. Give it up. You know very little, it would seem, on the subject, and the more you talk (or type), the more you come across as an ignoramus.
     
    #74
  25. danno123

    danno123 Rookie

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    I was interested in hydration, so I looked at what doctors use (google "oral rehydration salts"). I've tried to make a cheap substitute for the store bought stuff by adding some sugar, Morton salt lite (which contains both potassium chloride and sodium chloride), ordinary table salt and baking soda to my water bottle. My recipe, which I'm not sure is optimum, is:
    2 Tbs sugar
    1/2 tsp Morton salt lite
    1/2 tsp table salt
    1/4 tsp baking soda
    mixed into a little over 1 qt of water (I try to err on the side of too much water).

    Keep in mind that I'm not a doctor. I'm just a guy who was interested in the subject and did some internet research. This recipe may not be any good.
     
    #75
  26. pvaudio

    pvaudio Legend

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    Easy gentlemen. Water, electrolytes, simple sugars, complex sugars and proteins are all required for training. This has been extensively studied. While I myself aman engineer, I was raised by an amateur racing cyclist whose day job happens to be a professor of medicine. His regimen for a 100mi ride consists of 1 bottle w/ water with nuun mixed in, four gels, and the second bottle being an accelerade mixture. In order that's water, electrolytes, both sugars and proteins. It's no coincidence that charliefederer's article states exactly this mix just as I had on the previous page. Another very useful addition is for recovery/changeovers, chocolate milk. You'll be hard pressed to find a better post-workout drink.

    http://www.utexas.edu/news/2011/06/22/milk_studies/

     
    #76
  27. jonnythan

    jonnythan Professional

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    Well I've been here 2 years longer than you. I don't know who you think my other identity is. Considering you have 1300 posts in about 10 months I suspect you're the one with 2 identities ;)
     
    #77
  28. crosscourt

    crosscourt Professional

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    Would he have adapted that regimen if he was cycling 100 miles a day for say two weeks?
     
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  29. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    chocolate milk on changeovers?

    ever tried it yourself?
     
    #79
  30. volleygirl

    volleygirl Semi-Pro

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    PP, I played a match yesterday in the hottest weather I have ever played in. The forcast was only 96 so we scheduled our match but it actually got up to 106 and there was absolutely no breeze whatsoever. I did have a pedialyte drink and some pickle juice before leaving fot the courts but today I am really feeling that match.
     
    #80
  31. tennischemist

    tennischemist Rookie

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    i live in DC and it's been around 100 and very humid this summer

    i make about 3 qts of gatorade at 1/2 the recommendation. i also make sure to eat a fat/protein oriented breakfast like eggs or something like that. i bring bananas, water, and the diluted gatorade and i'm ok.
     
    #81
  32. JohnnyFive

    JohnnyFive Banned

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    I find Nuun to be FAR superior to Gatorade, or any other electrolyte replacement fluid I've found/researched. Nearly optimal ratios of Potassium, Magnesium and Sodium make it, for me, the perfect "Sports Drink."
     
    #82
  33. Ramon

    Ramon Hall of Fame

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    That's probably because Nuun doesn't have simple sugar. Gatorade, and other sports drinks, depend on sugar for energy, but even those companies are coming out with alternative drinks with low sugar content. The risks of too much sugar are real (long and short term), and the benefits to most people are questionable because of the fatigue that comes after the sugar rush.

    A list of risks from sugar:
    http://www.yaleruddcenter.org/resources/upload/docs/what/policy/SSBtaxes/SSBStudies_Health.pdf

    Dr. Oz and his views of on sugar:
    http://www.sharecare.com/question/simple-sugars-health-risks

    For some people who metabolize sugar better than others, it has its benefits, but for a lot of people I think it's a legitimate concern. Also, the needs of a cyclist going 100 miles are different from the needs of the typical recreational tennis player. Personally, I've noticed both the initial high and the fatigue that follows, and due to my high blood sugar I have to be conscious of the risks.
     
    #83
  34. Wuppy

    Wuppy Professional

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    I just smoke crack before each set.
     
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  35. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    sugar free
     
    #85
  36. Power Player

    Power Player Talk Tennis Guru

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    I bet! I drink tons of water and after I drink Gatorade. It doesn't help me during, I prefer a ton of water with the electrolyte packs I linked to earlier.
     
    #86
  37. JohnnyFive

    JohnnyFive Banned

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    The Nuun tabs are superior to that electrolyte mega pack, which provides a bunch of stuff that isn't really required when sweating and the like. Those packs also don't mix too nicely (I have tried them) and, the Nuun tabs do...much more convenient.
     
    #87
  38. Rozroz

    Rozroz Legend

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    what about Gu Brew?
    i've tried the lemon powder and i'm pretty satisfied with it.
    it also got some good reviews on it's ingredients.
    and not very pricy (25$ for 35 servings canister)
     
    #88
  39. DBrickshaw

    DBrickshaw New User

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    Gu brew is good stuff
     
    #89
  40. Surecatch

    Surecatch Semi-Pro

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    I always take two full bottles with me, one of ice water and one of iced orange powerade. I also have packets of energy gel available, although i don't wait until I'm lagging in energy to use them....I usually scarf down a half or so of one at the start of every set at least. I'm trying to avoid getting to the point of needing it, basically. It's the same principle as with hydration...if you've waited until you're exhibiting dehydration, you've waited too long.
     
    #90
  41. jonnythan

    jonnythan Professional

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    FWIW, it was pretty hot recently at sectionals. During matches I had a small cooler with a bottle of water, a bottle of regular Gatorade, and a cold wet towel. On every changeover I took a gulp of G, a gulp of water, and pressed the towel all over my head. Between matches I drank water, ate a banana, and had half a protein shake.
     
    #91
  42. brianb76

    brianb76 Rookie

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    I recently tried Hyper FX as a pre match energy boost, wont be doing that again.
    Energy boost was fine but made me somewhat dizzy and effected my vision.
     
    #92
  43. Joko

    Joko New User

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    I hope this question hasn't been answered already.

    Does anyone know what the pros drink during a match? I watched a lot of matches but I couldn't figure it out.
    I mean obviously it is a electrolyte drink but does anyone know which one? Or what it contains?

    I'm curious because I'm studying biochemistry and I know what it should contain and what our sweat comprised but I'm not sure if they drink just some typical drinks or something really specific.

    I know the odds that someone knows that if the get some special drinks are quite low but since there is also pictures of rackets of pros I thought I give it a try.
     
    #93
  44. Mick3391

    Mick3391 Professional

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    Be hydrated before you matches, then drink sugar soda, anything, Orange Crush, or anything, the sugar gives quick energy. Gatorade is the biggest scam of all time.

    Sugar Ray Robinson, the greatest who had over 100 fights used to eat pieces of chocolate between rounds, good move....

    Pro's Tennis players eat Bananas, to each their own.
     
    #94
  45. DBrickshaw

    DBrickshaw New User

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    Soda dehydrates you cuz it has too much sugar in it
     
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