Starcraft 2 players club

Discussion in 'Odds & Ends' started by soyizgood, Jul 29, 2010.

  1. GetBetterer

    GetBetterer Hall of Fame

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    dave333:
    Everything but this, was a repeat of what you've said in the past posts, which I've re-answered twice in the past three posts. So, I'm not even going to go into this circle again, because you haven't refuted my posts yet.

    As for the part I did quote, you clearly took no effort into looking into the match fixing scandal, or any other part of the post I asked you to give a slight effort to look into.

    I'm not missing what you're saying, because you're not even bothering to read, or try. As I previously stated, go give even the slightest attempt to show me, and for any other person who wants to join us on this conversation, that you have actually read through the post, or given an effort to refute the comments in other posts.
     
  2. dave333

    dave333 Hall of Fame

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    I honestly can't tell if you are trolling me at this point. I do not believe you believe your responses are actual answers.

    Maybe I'm writing too much.
    My most basic argument is that carriers are not worth the cost for what they offer, making them not worth using.

    I feel like you've lost sight of the initial discussion, which was whether carriers were really worth getting. Instead you are just trying to point me out as wrong in any possible way.

    How have you refuted that? By claiming I don't read? By ignoring my posts and just posting crap? You complained I didn't address PFFs; I just did in the previous post yet you say that it is just a repeat of what I've said before, completely dodging everything. You are most definitely missing what I am saying.

    I know what it's like to be wrong on an internet forum, and it can be tough to admit to being wrong. But learning to accept such things is a positive. I would hope your internet attitude is very different from your real life one, which I can believe since the anonymity of the internet lets one be a bit more aggressive than in real life.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2011
  3. dave333

    dave333 Hall of Fame

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    I gotta say though....how did Inca get into the finals? XP the ling runby was just fail at so many levels.
     
  4. GetBetterer

    GetBetterer Hall of Fame

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    You know what? No, I blame myself. Maybe I should explain every bit of detail, but here's a hint: The Match Fixing Scandal was not for the GSL, nor even Starcraft 2. The players I mention? Oh boy, you should have looked into them lol. Since I've refuted half of your post that I quoted already, I'll let you figure out the players yourself.

    LoL, all those accusations are things that I've made against you, and I've proven it just now. You clearly didn't give even the slightest hint of effort to look up the Match Fixing Scandal, but maybe you didn't read the first part of my post again, so I'll repeat it here -- the Match Fixing Scandal was NOT for the GSL, nor even in the time of Starcraft 2.

    I didn't dodge everything, because I've already answered it, and refuted it but then you re-post it. You're the one dragging this conversation into circles.

    Also, what's a PFF, do you mean PDD (lol)? Please, since you've used PFF twice now, tell me what the acronym stands for, otherwise this is my face until then:

    [​IMG]
     
  5. dave333

    dave333 Hall of Fame

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    Finally done with exams/returning home, but I see that I really didn't miss anything that requires a real response anymore.
     
  6. coyfish

    coyfish Hall of Fame

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    Planetary ****ing fortress
     
  7. GetBetterer

    GetBetterer Hall of Fame

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    dave333:
    Funny how you were responding every day, even though you've had these supposed exams for quite some time and you were responding even though you said you had these, and that you were studying for them at the time. Now you've returned and still made no progress.

    [​IMG]

    coyfish:
    R f**king Cons
     
  8. dave333

    dave333 Hall of Fame

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    It's called studying for exams, then actually taking them lol.
     
  9. GetBetterer

    GetBetterer Hall of Fame

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    Wasted a lot of time that you could've been studying for them, and based on all of your posts getting refuted, and failing to come up with anything to defend yourself, I wouldn't be very hopeful of your exam scores either.
     
  10. Timbo's hopeless slice

    Timbo's hopeless slice Hall of Fame

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    look, i'm not as good as you guys, obviously (ranked 4 in Diamond ATM) but I'm a toss player, and I have a comment on the carrier thing.

    If you have the kind of economy happening that can afford an investment in sufficient carriers to be effective, then why the hell haven't you won already with something else??????

    Maybe mass carriers is all the range in Bronze solo but I am afraid I wouldn't know...
     
  11. GetBetterer

    GetBetterer Hall of Fame

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    Timbo's_hopeless_slice:
    See, that's what I've been questioning. Dave is all like, "well if you get Carriers herp derp, they're not cost efficient because they take too much time to get" and that's why I brought up the Production Possibilities Frontier (it's PPF dave, not PFF lol and PDD is Point Defense Drone). He's been making it seem like a Protoss player will get nothing but Carriers, but when he compares it to Zerg he's like "well Zerg gets a buttload of everything" so I'm wondering why he only mentions opportunity cost but no PPF and says that Protoss can get other things because his posts have been focusing on a Protoss player getting only Carriers.

    Then we went on about "well you can't beat Void Ray + Colossi + Sentries" and I asked "where do you get the Gas for that much stuff, against quote unquote, a 'competent player'?" That went unanswered too...

    Then, to check he was reading my posts, I mentioned the Match Fixing Scandal from SC:BW with most of Sparkyz Hite, sAviOr, YellownArc and he was like "well, in the GSL the match fixing scandal was bla bla bla" and I don't know why I read on, because I knew he hadn't even given the slightest effort to look up what the Match Fixing Scandal was because, as I said -- it was from SC:BW and the GSL is SC2. Then, after that he didn't respond for several days and goes "ah finally, done with my exams and no worthy posts to respond to, of course it's not an excuse for myself to hide myself being wrong."

    That's still a decent rank in my book.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2011
  12. dave333

    dave333 Hall of Fame

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    LOL that just made my day, doubting my grades. I'm your classic overachieving asian+more, don't doubt.

    Jesus do I have to say things explicitly? You CAN get carriers, you will just die doing so. Whereas Void Rays, Collossi, and Sentries (especially sentries) are on the way of your tech path and will keep you safe. Where do you get the gas for all that? Idk man, void ray collossus with sentry/stalker support was pretty damn common. Still occasionally pops up but zerg aggression has been mostly shutting late game toss down.

    This is totally true and is basically part of what I have been saying.. However, you can't just have the economy; you need to be able to stay alive. If you reach the point where you have a big economy and can go carriers, you can simply just make more collossus/upgrades/HTs/void rays whatever without investing in a huge amount of money that doesn't pay off till you have that sufficient amount of carriers. I already said this multiple times.

    Instead of devoting a ton of money into carriers that don't pay off, you can just put that money into actual units and just go kill them.

    I already addressed this thing on PPFs and stuff but you completely ignored. Yes I made a typo on PPFs but you got the point (actually no you totally ignored it). Here, I'll copy paste for you

    Here I am specifically discussing the costs of production of carriers. If you are on 3 base and producing as much as you can to build from robos and gateways and stargates too (I assume you already have a stargate), to build carriers you will have to cut down on building other stuff. And so the question is, are carriers worth it? Check my other posts, I said no

    Here's the simplest statement:
    Producing carriers means producing less of other stuff. Is producing carriers going to be more beneficial than buliding that other stuff? No.

    That's at its most simple okay? SC2 income is basically limited because eventually you have too many workers to have a large enough army. Once you have the income cap, you really have no way to expand your PPF. So every time you choose to make a unit or build a structure, you have to cut down on something else. In the case of carriers, you have to spend a lot on infrastructure and upgrades and the carrier itself just to get a carrier out after a long period of time. Does that single carrier offer much utility? Dubious. You need more, and you can't use the carriers you make till you have a sufficient number or they will get sniped easily by corruptors and vikings. So that's a ton of investment and time on stuff that isn't coming out yet. Yes you can still produce other units, but you will have to produce less of them. And that could be very dangerous. And given that carriers aren't even necessairly better than Collossus/Void rays, as my earlier posts elaborate on, it's pretty much useless.

    This discussion on carriers have gone sooo long, I'm pretty sure it's over. What is your conclusion on carriers? You have given none. I barely even know what you are arguing about at this point. I'm trying to say carriers are not worth it, you say I am wrong, but what are you trying to prove right?

    If you are trolling, good job. You have me on tilt.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2011
  13. dave333

    dave333 Hall of Fame

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    Okay I've decided to make this final statement on carriers. I think it's fairly moderate and accurate.

    Carriers are useful in certain situations, but in most normal situations there are better alternatives than going carriers.
     
  14. soyizgood

    soyizgood G.O.A.T.

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    Carriers and motherships are good for late game if you have excess minerals and gas to support the main fleet. I still think colossus, void rays, templars, archons, stalkers, immortals are better investments. But the beauty of SC 2 is you can win in both conventional and unconventional ways.
     
  15. GetBetterer

    GetBetterer Hall of Fame

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    dave333:
    Yeah, I can tell. Arrogance and proof came with the package. Oh wait, only one of those did…

    You know, several posts ago (if you read it) I mentioned proof from at least 3 games. I still have yet to see that…from, quoting you, “competent players.”

    No, it hasn’t been any part of what you’ve been saying, and all you’ve been repeating is that Carriers are worthless and that’s why Blizzard kept them in the game unlike units such as the Lurker, and that Carriers are the only possible option.

    This statement:
    and this one:

    contradict this one, yet again:

    Because your implicit statement here is that getting Carriers only removes the ability to get other units, when the statements you just made on this page is it’s good to get other units, as you agreed with Timbo’s hopeless slice. Also, please enlighten me – if I am wrong – how Timbo’s hopeless slice also got the same impression as I did.


    Also, don’t try to hide that the PFF you kept typing was a typo, it was a clearly an understanding mistake, as you typed it like that 3 times, and then when I say it’s actually PPF, again we have a long pause before a post before we see you acknowledge it and fix it. Now, how about acknowledging the match fixing scandal mistake?

    This doesn’t seem like it was taken from an Econ 101 book or something…

    Then riddle me this (which I’ve asked 4 different times in 4 different posts now): Why did Blizzard keep it?

    The question above this quote. My conclusion agrees with Timbo’s hopeless slice, but yours does not. If you have the time to get Carriers, and the game’s been drawn on that long, is there an incentive to get them? If there is, why are they not yet had? They’re useless? They don’t offer any decent support?

    Oh, and to recall one of your other posts you said:
    But let’s look at that in one of the most nitty-gritty forms:
    Hatchery > Lair > Spire > Hive > Greater Spire or Hatch > Lair > Hive > Ultralisk Cavern
    Command Center > Barracks > Starport > Fusion Core (tech lab somewhere in there)
    Nexus > Gateway > Cybernetics Core > Stargate > Fleet Beacon

    Now, you also said:
    Apparently the other two races don’t have Stargates/Starports when you’re making the Fleet Beacon or Fusion Core as you need the Ultralisk Cavern or Greater Spire…

    Blizzard knows the units of other races are produced at a linear rate, there’s a reason why they’re very strong. A Battlecruiser or a Carrier destroy ground units faster than a Brood Lord. Thors one-shot Ultralisks with 250 mm Strike Cannons (assuming no regeneration) and do much better than that with just +1 Vehicle Upgrades (but of course the Armory isn’t required for Thors so they’ll never get that).

    This statement contradicts Post #494 (you wrote that one), because you say that Carriers aren’t cost-efficient, but they’re somehow in certain cases unit-efficient:

    Also, if I was trolling, you would know. But sarcasm from frustration and then reverting to real discussion is not trolling. If you need a guide on how to troll, you can find many on the internet.

    You said Carriers are useless in situations because of their cost-efficiency, but they’re also useful in “certain situations” – please describe these. At least try to defend your point, even if it’s this small part this time. Repeating what we’ve stated, unless there’s something I missed, does not count.

    soyizgood:
    Oh God, I went nostalgic right there remembering one of my greatest games when I expanded far out of my base and a Terran player cheesed me with me winning with mass Zerglings. Except this was SC1 back before they had Medics. Good times…
     
  16. petema99

    petema99 Rookie

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    only got the game a little while ago, just starting out, but anyone from Euro servers wanna give me a game/ give me some tips on how to win? :D
     
  17. dave333

    dave333 Hall of Fame

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    I'm a bit inebriated right now but ughhhhhh

    I think timbo slice's ting goes along with what i say as well; that ifyou hae the economy for carriers, you probably already won anyway and probalby can just win with other stuff too.

    I see caririers being useful against mech pvt, as a phoenix transition in pvp (but going phoenix into carier is really just aresult of build order win), and theya re generally not very good in pvz. Ins tandard situations like against bioballs+vikings or roach/hydra/corruptor, its better to get void rays/carriers than carriers and its cheaper to do so as well, which only makes it better. but therea re times where theyre useful.

    Blizzard said themeselves somewhere (well my toss friend told me this) that they ddin't want carriers to be standard, they are the big bad boys of the protoss fleet they come when they are really needed. In general they are not really eneeded but sometimes they are. That's why blizz keeps them. As for messing up on creating units, they messed up awful with teh reaper thats why they nerfed reapers to obvlivion.

    Okay can we just end and say we're both right? that i have points u have points and be happy? goddd you're aggravating my happy time. i'm going to play some sotis so yeah.

    if anyone enjoys sotis add me virtu.156 soo funnn
     
  18. GetBetterer

    GetBetterer Hall of Fame

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    dave333 confirmed for troll.

    But since you're drunk, I'll go easy on you:

    If you read my post, what you said doesn't match up with Timbo's hopeless slice, or yourself.

    Won't Vikings just dominate them? Vikings are great anti-air units, and maybe, just maybe if they massed Marines, they might be able to take out Carriers as Viking replacements.

    Confirmed for troll/drunk.

    You go enjoy your happy time, but if you keep contradicting yourself like that, you're not right and technically fixing your wrongs back to a point of a neutral position.
     
  19. dave333

    dave333 Hall of Fame

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    Finally got to hotel in hong kong I think I might go and try to get an asian version of sc2, would be pretty cool
     
  20. Hot Sauce

    Hot Sauce Hall of Fame

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    I just got back from korea.. Man what an experience. I got a chance to watch the gstl finals and day 5 of the gsl super tournament. Got pictures with boxer, mkp, and some other players. So sick! Now that I'm back I'm a bit inspired by the Starcraft atmosphere in Korea and I might get back into playing a lot and make a push for top 200 (grandmaster)
     
  21. GetBetterer

    GetBetterer Hall of Fame

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    Hot_Sauce:
    Yep, Season 2 started like 2 months ago-ish. Good luck on everybody's endeavors!
     
  22. soyizgood

    soyizgood G.O.A.T.

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  23. GetBetterer

    GetBetterer Hall of Fame

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  24. coyfish

    coyfish Hall of Fame

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    Season 2 ranking system is very strange. There are people with very low points / stats in grand master league. I am in 4v4 / 2v2 grandmaster after winning like 1 game. Doesn't really make sense.
     
  25. GetBetterer

    GetBetterer Hall of Fame

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    coyfish:
    When you get into Grand Master's League, your entire thing "resets" so to speak so that only the games you play in Grand Master are shown.
     
  26. soyizgood

    soyizgood G.O.A.T.

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    So I guess Raynor's efforts to rescue Kerrigan go for nothing. Well, at least his pursuit of his forbidden girlfriend resulted in huge casualties for the Dominion in the process.

    Jim, find a somewhat normal chic. Kerrigan is someone the galaxy can do without.
     
  27. Hot Sauce

    Hot Sauce Hall of Fame

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    Man, I suck now. I guess thats what happens for not using a computer for 3 weeks and not playing competitively for like 2-3 months prior.

    Been losing to my buddy in diamond. When I was playing competitively in tournaments I would tool him any way I wanted, lol. I hate losing to Terrans even though they're bad. Mules and stim 1a MMM armies will let a lesser Terran beat a higher skilled Protoss or Zerg. I make no excuses though! I will improve and return to my old form - SOLID STANDARD PROTOSS! FOR AIUR!

    Most of my old builds don't work anymore, I guess that's pretty normal though.
     
  28. GetBetterer

    GetBetterer Hall of Fame

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    soyizgood:
    I don't think Kerrigan died at the end. It looked like she just kind of calmed down and rested in his arms. As for the storyline (this is a guess), I think she tries to get the Zerg army back since the Dark Voice will destroy the entire world if she doesn't. Although I do think it's freaky that the voice that helps her out has very human-like qualities.

    As for "normal chicks," give me ONE normal chick from Wings of Liberty.

    Mira Han - No. She's half robot and even then she's already "married." *Shivers*

    Nova - She's an assassin. She works for Mengsk, who I believe we're all trying to rebel against.

    Ariel Hansen - Infested. Unlike Kerrigan, even though she's infested I would not tap that.

    IMO Kerrigan is the only "normal" girl in the storyline so far...
     
  29. coyfish

    coyfish Hall of Fame

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    Protoss is more rewarded for "Attack move" than terran imo... Protoss death ball > Terran MMM ball. All you really have to micro is sentry. Not saying terran is "hard" but definitely more integrate micro involved. I don't understand the terran "no skill" hate. Chronoboost > mules until about 10+ minutes. Protoss consistently outmacro me even when I expo earlier... until mid-late game at least. Lots of time to upgrade to orbital + 150 minerals + no SCV production at critical time = slow macro early on.

    I think terran is the easiest race to learn but the hardest to master. Zerg is hard to learn but lots of areas to mold yourself into good player. Toss in the middle.
     
  30. soyizgood

    soyizgood G.O.A.T.

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    I believe the plot to save Haven is the direction Blizzard chose. That makes Ariel arguably the most normal of the SC 2 girls. I guess Kate Lockwell counts for normal, though she absolutely was joyful when Donny Vermillion checked himself into an insane asylum.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2011
  31. GetBetterer

    GetBetterer Hall of Fame

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    soyizgood:
    I'm taking every option. News Anchors don't count because they're not that much of the actual storyline. Until she destroys a planet or something, she's not on my list.
     
  32. soyizgood

    soyizgood G.O.A.T.

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    I'm going to make Ravens a more important part of my air fleet. It came in handy in my 3v3 match. One guy invested a lot on dark templar and he killed my gold expansion twice, but the ravens aided my army in cutting those DT to size. Dark Templar must be expensive because late in the game he tried to rush my planetary fortress with zealots and failed. My teammate ruled the air with those ravens. Cut those void rays and battlecruisers up.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2011
  33. diredesire

    diredesire Super Moderator

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    Point Defense Drone vs. Protoss is not even fair, stalkers can't hit you! :)

    Ravens have serious potential. Upgrade seeker missile, and you can take out a pack of banelings before they hit you. (although I never end up getting there...)
     
  34. soyizgood

    soyizgood G.O.A.T.

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    I wonder if roaches have trumped hydralisks as the "face" of the Zerg. You even see pro games with Zerg players opting to skip hydralisk production.
     
  35. coyfish

    coyfish Hall of Fame

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    Ravens own but seeker missile just blows. Using seeker missile vs banelings is such a bad idea lol. Tanks are so much smarter / easier / cost effective.

    Have you seen how slow the missile is? Or how long it takes to get 150 energy only to waste on a missed shot. PD / turrets are so much better.
     
  36. coyfish

    coyfish Hall of Fame

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    still popular vs protoss heavy gateway armies.
     
  37. coyfish

    coyfish Hall of Fame

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    Played one game last night for the first time in a couple weeks and got promoted to masters in 3v3.

    I hate terran vs terrans and I usually cheese or basically all in but I have just tried going pure ghost. I have been relatively successful at it. Get about 4 and head in. They destroy any bio easily and at that time in the opponent will only have 1 banshee, 1 tank, or a few helions. Ghosts mop all that up.
     
  38. soyizgood

    soyizgood G.O.A.T.

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    I want to do doom-drops a bit more. Idra is awesome at doing those.

    I'm more comfortable playing 3v3 than 1v1. I need to be more creative in my unit selection and get my army out earlier.
     
  39. soyizgood

    soyizgood G.O.A.T.

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    I tried a 1v1 for once. Lost, as usual. He attacked me first with a banshee. When I sent a recon force to his expansion he had a bunker and a tank covering it. I was knocked off balance and then he came with his main army with a few siege tanks.

    Anytime I lose a 1v1 I go weeks before I even try another one. I may even consider changing to protoss. Terran you almost have to strike right away. I wait too long to build up forces and just one little move by my opponent can throw me off.

    I'm thinking of just building a few marines and marauders and going to air attack earlier.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2011
  40. diredesire

    diredesire Super Moderator

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    Consider dropping your ~3rd scan and see what tech he's going. If you scan around 6:30 you can see a banshee building (assuming reasonably tight build). If you see a tech lab researching on the starport, drop an engineering bay or if you have a starport, build a raven [worst case, you can save up your next scan]. If your opponent is turtling hard, go for the expo and tech, or get upgrades.

    Standard MMM is pretty strong if you can defend his harrass. Day9 daily recently did Terran week, might want to watch the TVT daily. (I'm not great/don't play many 1v1s, so take it FWIW)
     
  41. soyizgood

    soyizgood G.O.A.T.

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    Patch 1.3.5 is out. Very minor which disappoints me.

     
  42. soyizgood

    soyizgood G.O.A.T.

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    Season 3 started. And man am I pumped. Played a placement match 1v1. I rarely ever win 1v1, but this time I prevailed. YES!

    I scouted the protoss player's location early. Walled off my ramp to where he couldn't get his scout in. Built two barracks, 1 factory, 1 starport. I placed enough marines and marauders to give him the impression I was turtling. Added 3 siege tanks for cover. He had no idea I was plotting a cloaked banshee rush.

    I launched the banshee attack after he failed to break the barriers to my ramp. I then expanded so he likely thought I was just expanding late. He tried a 5 gate, 1 robo build.

    The banshees crushed the expansion and since his main forces warped in the middle of field they were too far away and too slow to help. After cleaning that up we had enough cloak to waste the pylons in order to supply block him and disable his gateways. Minimal resistance and then proceeded to blast his structures. He then tried a suicide attack on my expo and main base which failed and forced him to gg. I suck, but victory felt SWEET!
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2011
  43. soyizgood

    soyizgood G.O.A.T.

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    Last season I didn't win a single 1v1 league match in about 9 tries. This campaign I did in it on the 1st try. It took 30 minutes and the protoss player produced more workers than me, but I was in control of this match.

    MVPs of the match were the banshees and the sensor tower. Built only 3 barracks, 1 factory, two starports. I turned the protoss player into a turtle. Destroyed his midfield pylons and photon cannons. Stalled for time with a suicidal MM charge so I could unleash cloaked banshees. Did about 3 banshee raids which decimated his main base. Then finished him off with MM. Protoss player quit without saying gg.

    I really need to boost my economy, but I did make good use of my money. Too bad two battlecruisers were wasted for almost nothing. I built up numerous turrets in case protoss had voidrays or an observer. I should have made the 3rd base sooner and transferred SCVs over to it. But my base and expansions were never in danger, the banshees did great, and I could have starved the protoss earlier had I charged to destroy the expansion instead of going up the main ramp. I destroyed 44 structures and lost 0 in the process. :)
     
  44. soyizgood

    soyizgood G.O.A.T.

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    Patch 1.3.6

    5 1v1 wins in a row. Granted it's bronze, but I've beaten 2 Protoss, 2 Terran, and a Zerg. I'll shut up and get back to the fight. :)
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2011
  45. diredesire

    diredesire Super Moderator

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    You build a lot of stuff, dude ;)

    Check out this guy's stream, i think you'll learn a lot by watching. I like his sort of chaotic macro style.

    http://www.justin.tv/sterlingkolde/b/287852275?
     
  46. soyizgood

    soyizgood G.O.A.T.

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    I looked over my vid last night. The banshee strike was lethal. On my 1st strike I destroyed his main base and took out his probes while destroying numerous pylons and a few warpgates. Had I settled to use my MM on the expansion I basically would have won because his gold expansion wasn't doing anything. Oh well, it was a huge confidence booster for me. I could have played better, but I'm getting more comfortable splitting units and taking up the offensive.

    I'll look at your link tonight. :)
     
  47. diredesire

    diredesire Super Moderator

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    My question is: When you start pumping banshees, do you have enough economy to still be producing out of all of your rax? If not, cut one of the rax early on (if you're doing this on one base) and then you can get a few extra SCVs and/or expand earlier. Not sure on your build timing. Drop down the additional raxes later in the game(s).

    I think you'll like the guy's stream. I don't think his unit composition will mirror yours very well at all, but just keep an eye on his macro-ing, I've learned a lot in terms of temporarily cutting production at the right time to get an extra base up.

    In terms of how i've been playing, all I have to say is QQ. I scouted/scanned one of my terran opponents early, saw he went a tech labbed starport, and then dropped an engineering bay AND put up turrets, but due to the design of one of the new maps, the turrets have to be placed in a more exposed area to effectively cover the base(s). I didn't suffer TOO much from the banshee harass because I was prepared, but he still got an advantage on me and ended up going heavy tanks... I think that game would have been mine easily if it wasn't on a ridiculously unfamiliar map. The banshee actually disappears into the high ground behind a base... Not sure what the map designers were thinking there. I'll just have to abuse it to my advantage later.
     
  48. soyizgood

    soyizgood G.O.A.T.

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    I've seen part of the stream so far. Is he the Terran version of idra? Idra is the master of Zerg macro. This player likes to expand before doing the major engagement. He's good at juggling various units.

    I really haven't used ghosts much. Only once in a while as I'm not great using EMP. That and I haven't utilized the tab key to to juggle different mix of units. I tend to group key certain units.

    So far I'm 8-3. Two of my losses came when the enemy loaded up on marines before my siege tanks could be built to defend the ramp, and when the protoss loaded up on stalkers probably going aggressive on gas. I didn't bother to look at that replay as I was burned going for an early expand. My wins have taken 19-33 minutes to pull off. Several months ago it took me 48 minutes to beat a player that had only 70 supply max. So I think I'm evolving, bit by bit.

    Seems I like to go 3 rax, 1 factory, 2 starports. This way I can build up marines and marauders to fortify the ramp while popping a few siege tanks as defense while I take the main army out. I can attack with banshees before or after the main army just to soften up the enemy. I've noticed zerg and protoss are vulnerable to banshee strikes as they rarely put detectors over their expansions. Even terrans can get caught off guard if they used up all their energy on MULES. I think most players only bother with detectors AFTER they got whacked. I don't have a true system for building banshees other than if I have at least 4 in queue I'll focus on adding ground units to make for a nice bioball + a few thors. I try not to use too many types of units while teching up the ones I do use.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2011
  49. diredesire

    diredesire Super Moderator

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    I'm not really qualified to comment on his "style" of play. I think on an absolute scale, Idra is much more mechanically sound. This guy expands quickly and his style of play rewards his sometimes sloppy mechanics. he can do supply call downs if absolutely necessary, or build several depots at once. he tends to have lots of extra scans and uses them for vision when making tank lines. He's got a good game sense and intuition as to where he scans. You'll often notice he'll drop a scan and catch the tail end of an army relocating, etc.

    I'm not sure if you're bunkering down, or if you're scouting, but if you get into his base, and you don't see any gas, and you see 2 barracks down, you should probably bunker up early before making your mix of production buildings. If you have very early aggression, you should try identifying the tell-tale signs early and then do some "crisis management" before going off on your "standard" build. Banshees as you said are rewarded (especially at low levels of play), but they're susceptible to all-ins, even with a wall.

    19-33 is kind of long for a game, mine are typically under 13mins or so, but I play more aggressively, and I tend to stick to tier1 units. I focus more on timing attacks. I try to get a sense of the build of the opponent, and then go an all-in-ish attack based on what I see. I like thors with autorepairing SCVs vs. zerg.

    The thing you mentioned about this guy going for early expos, you have to note what kind of information he sees before expo-ing. Most players aren't going to blindly expo with faith alone. If he sees his opponent has 2 gas down (or something like this), he can assume that he is teching. You generally aren't going to drop an expo when you see no gas and an aggressive opener (2 gate/2rax etc). If you see 2 gas, for early game, you can drop a bunker and you'll survive a really early push. You should get more information (suicide an SCV if you need to) to determine whether or not they're going a strong push [early-mid game]. There's only SO much benefit from trying to mimic this guy without understanding his thought process, but this guy isn't a turtler, so i figure it'd give you some inspiration as to how to push out without worrying too much. Waste your second scan and get some info! :)

    What's your expo timing, out of curiosity? Do you build all your production buildings before expanding? If so, you're wasting a lot of minerals, as you can't produce off of all those buildings at once on 1 base.

    As far as detection, if you think about the tech path for the zerg/toss, you have to get an evo chamber (IIRC) before putting down a spore crawler, and an overseer requires a lair tech. Most people in bronze aren't going to be focusing on upgrades, so the spore crawler is generally not going to be something to worry about. Lair tech will generally be created if the opponent is going air, and if that's the case, try to scout this early and then push with your infantry, chances are you can take it out if you recognize where their resources are going.

    Similarly from protoss, a forge needs to be put down for cannons, and these are really easy to circumvent. An observer requires a cybernetics core, then a robo facility. So... in general, in bronze league I dont' think you have to worry TOO much about detection. Even for Terran, skirt around the edges with a good escape path, and force the scan. Once the scan is expired, come back in and harass. Always keep the banshees moving, use the "stutter step" method (move, s, move, s) to pick off workers, etc.

    After the harass, I like picking off standalone pylons and supply depots... As usual, the disclaimer of me not being extremely good still stands ;)
     
  50. soyizgood

    soyizgood G.O.A.T.

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    I don't have a set timing for expanding. It's so situational and/or haphazrd. I try to get info on enemy movements with sensor towers and scans along with holding a Xel'naga tower. If I don't see nor suspect anything then I'm comfortable getting an expansion. I'm kind of paranoid and will upgrade the CC to a PF in case I get caught off guard. At that point I'll have a few siege tanks as cover. The MM group will scout a bit. It's kind of a distraction to my enemy so I can do my banshee raid, if that's my plan. I could just go bulldoze or pin him down if he hasn't done any scouting, throwing in a few Thors.

    I don't do a great job building up economy (getting better though), so I have to do something to rattle my opponent. Bait him into a siege tank ambush, banshee raid, divert with a pseudo attack, something to throw a wrinkle in their plan.
     

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