Stats for 1980 Wimbledon QF(Connors-Tanner)

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by Moose Malloy, Nov 7, 2012.

  1. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    Connors d Tanner 16 62 46 62 62

    my stats
    Connors served at 61%(74 of 121)
    He won 54 of 74 pts on 1st serve(67.5%)
    and 24 of 47 on 2nd(51%)
    4 aces, 2 df's
    drew 28 return errors
    of the return errors Tanner made 6 were fh, 22 were bh
    8 were on 2nd serve
    6-15 on break points(Tanner made 1st serves on 8 of them)

    Tanner served at 43.5%(61 of 140)
    He won 39 of 61 pts on 1st serve(64%)
    and 41 of 79 on 2nd(52%)
    16 aces, 6 df's
    drew 31 return errors
    of the return errors Connors made, 6 were fh, 25 were bh
    17 were on 2nd serve
    4-9 on break points(Connors made 1st serves on 4 of them)

    Connors had 37 non service winners: 6 fh, 17 bh, 9 fhv, 5 bhv
    Tanner had 39: 2 fh, 10 bh, 14 fhv, 9 bhv, 4 ov

    Connors was 57-83 at net(69%)
    didn't take S&V stats, but it seemed like he was doing it a lot, on both 1st & 2nd serves

    Connors had a pretty tough schedule at this rain plagued tournament. He completed his 4th round match the day before(while Tanner had the day off)
    And his semifinal opponent McEnroe had the day off while he played Tanner(and the other men's semi - Borg-Gottfried - was actually played on the same day as this QF)
    Commentators said it may have been fairer for the players if they just extended the tournament by another day.

    Tanner was on the end of a rather absurd decision by the umpire early in the 5th set when he hit an ace that was called a fault & the umpire decided to just 'play a let' instead of awarding the point to Tanner. Commentators said that officiating was pretty poor throughout the tournament(what a surprise)

    In the McEnroe-Connors SF, the same exact thing happened to Mac(hit an ace that was called a fault, the umpire gave him a 1st serve instead of the point) & commentators/fans/press acted like Mac was such a disgrace to the game even though he was 100% right. I guess because he didn't just let it go like Tanner did(though he was pretty upset as well & did explain to the umpire 'the rules') & asked for a referee in an extended conversation(which resulted in Mac getting a 'public warning' whatever that meant)
     
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  2. heathcliff

    heathcliff Rookie

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    thanks moose for the info.
    do you know how many times tanner aproached the net?
     
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  3. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    great, great match, one of the best grass court matches of the decade.

    I remember Connors being interviewed after that classic..." When Roscoe is on a string like that, you just can sit and wait till it´s over...it is just bruttal"
     
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  4. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Neil Amdur in the New York Times:

    Yesterday, when Connors was asked how he could handle the demanding load of matches against the hard-serving Tanner, McEnroe and Borg on successive days, the 27-year-old American replied, “I’ll either be in great shape or dead.”

    If Connors can pull off this feat, it would undoubtedly rank as the highlight of his already brilliant career. In McEnroe, however, he will face a far superior serve-and-volley executioner than the fifth-seeded Tanner, who at times today resembled a blacksmith trying to drive nails through concrete.

    Tanner, a five-set loser to Borg in last year s final, served 16 aces and had numerous other service winners. But the most revealing statistic in an otherwise routine 2-hour-36-minute match was the shockingly poor percentage of first serves that were good – 60 of 140, or 43%. For a player whose game is almost solely constructed around his left-handed serve, the low percentage is akin to a fastball pitcher who strikes out five batters and walks 10.

    In dropping the fourth set, for example, Tanner faulted 20 of 27 first serves. When Connors finally broke for a 4-2 lead in the fifth set, it came on his fifth break point -- a backhand return down the line that he had played from inside the baseline. On the four previous break points, Connors had netted backhand returns, leaning into them late from behind the baseline, in deference to Tanner’s serving power.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2012
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  5. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Surprised to see Tanner's 1st serve success at only 64%.

    When he lost to Borg in five sets in '79, he won 79% of his 1st serve points, 46% on second serve. And his service percentage was 53%, much better than against Connors.
     
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  6. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Connors served on 121 points and 32 serves did not come back: 26%

    Tanner served on 140 points and 47 serves did not come back: 34%
     
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  7. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    I had him at 69 of 125(55%)
    He S&Ved on every 1st & 2nd serve

    how was his 1st serve success when the return was put in play?
     
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  8. McEnroeisanartist

    McEnroeisanartist Hall of Fame

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    yes, the classic 1980 Wimbledon semifinal match with Connors and McEnroe. The match was dreadfully boring, except for McEnroe's famous outburst in the first set. This was the same match where Connors finger pointed at McEnroe and said, "keep your mouth shut out there" at the changeover.
     
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  9. jaggy

    jaggy G.O.A.T.

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    Crazy left handed Americans, good ole Tarango came along later to add some sensibility.
     
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  10. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    He mostly got killed when his 1st serve was returned: won only 9 of 31 points (29%). When his second serve was returned he won 24 of 56 (43%).

    Connors won 30 of 50 when his 1st serve was returned (60%), and 16 of 37 on his 2nd (43%).

    Tanner was excellent, by contrast, when his 1st serve was returned by Borg in the '79 final: he won 28 of 47 such points, or 60%.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2012
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  11. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    This is also a little surprising, for Tanner to draw more return errors with his 2nd serve than with his first (17 vs 14). Of course Tanner not getting too many 1st serves into play had something to do with that, but still it's surprising considering the weapon his 1st serve was.

    In the '79 final, Tanner drew 28 return errors with his first serve, only 9 with his second.

    Connors failed to put Tanner's 1st serve back in play 30 times, but a majority of those were aces (16). He did really well when he could get a racquet on the ball.

    Tanner made 61 first serves and 30 did not come back (16 aces, 14 return errors): 49%.
    He served 79 second serves, and 17 did not come back: 21.5%
     
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  12. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Yup he was quoted saying something very similar.

    AP article:

    Tanner, beaten by Borg in last year’s final, began with a stream of booming services and aced Connors five times in the first set. But as the match went on, Connors returned service with increasing success.

    With a 2-1 lead in sets, Tanner looked in good shape for victory. But he had a disastrous game, double faulting twice and netting an easy forehand volley to trail 0-2 in the fourth set -- and the match flowed away from him from then on.

    Connors said afterward: “When Roscoe is getting his first serve in, like he was in the first set, you just wait and hope he will cool off. I just hoped he would make a mistake or two so I could get some shots in.”

    Tanner’s service lost a lot of its sting later. He finished with 16 aces, but he also missed a lot with his first service and Connors slammed winners off his second deliveries.

    Connors’ last vital breakthrough was at 4-2 in the final set. Tanner fended off four break points before Connors won the game with a spectacular backhand return down the line.​


    Another AP story:

    “After I lost the third set my returns were firm on both sides,” said Connors. “I was mixing it up well on my serves and turned my game around a bit to offset his tempo.

    “In those last two sets I played as well as I’ve played in the tournament.”

    Connors, winner of only one Wimbledon singles title, was unable to cope with Tanner’s whirlwind serve in the 19-minute first serve.

    .... Midway through the third set of his 2 3/4-hour thriller with fifth-seeded Tanner, Connors clutched at his left knee and appeared in some pain.

    “It’s OK now,” he said. “It scared me more than anything. I sort of twisted it, but it didn’t worry me after I’d played three or four points.”​
     
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  13. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    I thought Connors was going for a bit too much on the 2nd serve return. Most serves were directed to his backhand which produced a lot of winners & errors. most of the 17 bh winners he hit were return winners, not sure the exact breakdown. and he made 25 bh return errors as well.

    Tanner served at 48% in the 1st set
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2012
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  14. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Yes and Borg's style of returning 2nd serves was somewhat less risky. Borg and Connors each had to face about 75 second serves from Tanner, with Connors making 17 errors, Borg only 9. That does seem to show Connors more eager to rip 2nd serves.

    (Just going by the numbers and by what you're saying; I haven't seen this match myself yet.)

    Borg made 11 clean return winners off Tanner's 2nd serve, presumably Connors got a similar or higher number.
     
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  15. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    yes, that was my recall.Thanks for bringing it up.

    BTW, Connrs vs tanner looks an underrated rivalry but was tremendously hot, a total contrast with the best server of the decade against the best returner.I remember those 1974 USO and 1975 Wimbly semis, the latter being regarded as the heavisest hitting ever seen on Centre Court.tanner got his revenge in 1976.
    In 1979 they had a close and tight up Masters meeting that Connors won in the last set tb...and Tanner got his revenge a couple of years later in the same event, with the score being....7-6,6-7,7-6...Uncredible.
     
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  16. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Tanner's loss to Connors here was during a two-year stretch when the only losses he had at GS events were five-set losses. In both '79 and '80 it took five sets to eliminate him at Wimb and USO.

    In a way that's a compliment to him; on the other hand, in all of those matches he was up 2-0 or 2-1 in sets.

    Here's a full list of Tanner's five-set losses in GS; I marked those in which he led 2-0 or 2-1 in sets.

    1972 USO to Gorman
    1975 RG to John Andrews (led 2-0 in sets)
    1976 USO to Nastase (led 2-1)
    1977 AO (Dec.) to Chris Lewis
    1979 Wimb to Borg (led 2-1)
    1979 USO to Gerulaitis (led 2-0)
    1980 Wimb to Connors (led 2-1)
    1980 USO to Borg (led 2-1)
    1981 AO to Frawley (led 2-0)
    1982 USO to Chip Hooper (led 2-1)
    1983 USO to Kriek (led 2-0, losing the last three sets all in tiebreaks)

    Tanner's career five-set record: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=5042326&postcount=308
     
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  17. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    some stats on their 1975 SF at Wimbledon
    Connors d Tanner 64, 61, 64

    Connors won 91 pts, Tanner 66

    Connors served at 67%(47 of 70)
    He won 37 of 47 pts on 1st serve(79%)
    and 16 of 23 on 2nd(69.5%)
    4 aces, 1 df
    drew 18 return errors(5 on 2nd serve)
    5-12 on break points(Tanner made 1st serves on 7 of them)
    32-41 on S&V attempts(78%), 43-54 overall at net(80%)

    Tanner served at 50.5%(44 of 87)
    He won 34 of 44 pts(77%)
    and 15 of 43 on 2nd(35%)
    12 aces(one on 2nd serve), 3 df's
    drew 18 return errors(9 on 2nd serve)
    1-1 on break points(Connors missed his first serve)
    32-67 on S&V attempts(48%), 33-72 overall at net(46%)

    non service winners:
    Connors:30 - 10 fh, 8 bh, 5 fhv, 3 bhv, 4 ov
    Tanner:16 - 3 fh, 1 bh, 4 fhv, 3 bhv, 5 ov

    unforced errors:
    Connors:8 - 4 bh, 4 volleys
    Tanner:8 - 1 fh, 7 at net

    of the return errors Connors made 13 were fh, 5 were bh. he made 6 fh return winners, none off the bh
    of the return errors Tanner made 13 were fh, 5 were bh(weird coincidence) He made no return winners

    just like in the 80 match the side where Connors made more return errors was the side where he also made more winners. In 80 it was the bh, in 75 it was the fh
    of the 18 return errors Connors made 8 were in the first 2 sets, 10 in the 3rd, of the 9 2nd serve returns he missed, 6 were in the 3rd. I think he started relaxing a bit in the 3rd, with the match in hand, and took more wild swings on the return, resulting in more errors.

    Connors numbers on serve were amazing. We've tracked a lot of matches from this era, and finding 2nd serve %'s above 60% is pretty rare. I think the highest 2 I've come across were both by McEnroe so to have the next highest after that be Connors is rather shocking to say the least. after he was broken in the 7th game of the first set, he didn't face a break point the rest of the match. In the 3rd set he only lost 3 points on serve. 31% of his serves were unreturned.
    In the 1980 match, 26% of his serves were unreturned. Tanner's rate was the same in both matches, 34%.

    Tanner served at a much higher % in this match compared to 1980(50.5 to 43.5), but this match was much more lopsided. In the 3rd set of this match(6-1) he actually had his highest %(58). Will have to check set by set numbers in 80 to compare, it did seem like when his serve % was lower, he troubled Connors more than when it was higher.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2016
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  18. NonP

    NonP Hall of Fame

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    Enhances Jimbo's rep as a counterpuncher. If you give him pace to work with he'll use it against you. ;)

    BTW I was looking at my Tanner database and found it surprising that we have so few unreturned %s for a server of his caliber and reputation. Here are all of the four matches I have with his %s, let me know if you've got more:

    1975 Wim SF l Connors - 34.5% (30/87)
    1979 Wim F l Borg - 31.1% (52/167)
    1980 Wim QF l Connors - 33.6% (47/140)
    1983 Wim QF l Lendl - 33.7% (33/98)
     
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  19. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    The numbers in the Lendl match were 43/98(43.9%)
    Not many full tanner matches available, hope to do the 77 AO final sometime. Still 31-34% is pretty good for 70s matches. And all 4 of those matches were losses. his serve % was under 50 in 2 of the matches, wonder if that was common for him. Ashe had a very high % vs Connors in the 75 final by taking more off the serve(not many aces). I'm not sure Tanner would be capable of that, and it would be weird for him to stop going for aces with that kind of weapon. I read that he tried to emulate Ashe the next year and beat Connors in the qtrs, but he had 19 aces, which makes me skeptical there was really that much of a dramatic game plan change.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2016
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  20. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Great stats, Moose. Very surprising service numbers for Connors. This match is famous because of the power that Connors displayed -- but the match reports always talk about power on the groundstrokes. Your numbers put a whole new spin on it. I would think this has to count as one of Connors' greatest service performances. 31.4% of all serves unreturned; and 41 SV attempts with 32 successful. Even the 4 aces seems a bit unusual for his matches, especially for such a short one. He served only 1 ace in the long 5-set loss to Borg in '77, and again only 1 in their 5-setter in '81.

    In this Tanner match Connors made 47 first serves; and he made a total of 41 SV attempts; the latter number is not broken down by first and second serve but I'm guessing (I haven't seen the match yet) that he didn't stay back on his first serve very much.

    What happened to Jimmy's serve in later years, I wonder.
     
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  21. pc1

    pc1 G.O.A.T.

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    What I find interesting about the stats is despise the focus of the Connors return, Tanner still won 34 of 44 first serve points.

    I always felt Connors' serve was underrated because he often felt he just had to spin it in and place it well to control the point. He didn't try that often to win points right off his serve.
     
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  22. krosero

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    #22
  23. krosero

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    In the '76 match the newspaper reports emphasize that Tanner's service return turned the match around; they say he started returning short and that this threw Connors off. A few reporters compared it to Ashe's tactics the year before.

    On the serve, I'm sure Tanner was not taking off very much pace (like you said he still had 19 aces). But he did say he was varying the pace more than usual. Tanner told the reporters, "I have never served harder than I did today. But I also served intelligently. I tried to vary the pace of every serve. Against Jimmy, if you serve two the same he knocks the second one off—if he hasn’t already knocked off the first one.”

    And in another article: "I think I had him confused with varying my service. Anytime you serve two serves alike he knocks the second one off. Last year he seemed able to step into it. Today he couldn’t.”

    The New York Times reported that Tanner made 45 of 92 first serves in the '76 match (48.9%).
     
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  24. pc1

    pc1 G.O.A.T.

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    It's funny Tanner said that. Newcombe said basically the same thing about serving to Connors, comparing him to a home run hitter in baseball I believe.
    http://blog.oregonlive.com/tennis/2013/01/australian_open_memories_jimmy.html
     
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  25. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    A few other stats I've calculated for that '75 match, using Moose's numbers.

    Connors finished 21.7% of all the points in the match with his own clean winners or aces. In our database he surpassed that only twice: 1977 Wimb final vs. Borg (22.2%) and 1974 USO final vs. Rosewall (26.6%).

    Connors’ Aggressive Margin was 45.2%
    Tanner’s Aggressive Margin was 29.3%

    That's the best we have for Connors so far.

    This is our full list, from best to worst:

    1975 W SF defeated Tanner 45.2%
    1974 W final defeated Rosewall 40.7%

    1987 W QF defeated Zivojinovic 35.7%
    1984 W final lost to McEnroe 20.0%
    1978 W final lost to Borg 19.8%
    1975 W final lost to Ashe 15.7%
    1983 USO final defeated Lendl 13.7%
    1991 USO R16 defeated Krickstein 8.3%
    1981 USO SF lost to Borg 8.1%
    1987 USO SF lost to Lendl 8.0%
    1987 W R16 defeated Pernfors 7.2%
    1977 USO final lost to Vilas 6.6%
    1985 RG SF lost to Lendl -6.6%
    1982 RG QF lost to Higueras -16.0%


    These AM's are not necessarily comparable because they use UE counts produced by various statisticians. I've bolded the matches for which the UE's were counted by myself or Moose; our UE counts tend to be similar.

    For the Ashe match I've used Connors' UEs as counted by @Nadal_Power, see http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/inde...she-connors-1975-w-final.192672/#post-7030762
     
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  26. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    That's 77% which is somewhat low for Tanner. Still, 77% is not bad.

    Where Connors really hurt Tanner was on second serve. There Tanner won only 35% of his points.

    And look at the points won when serves were successfully returned:

    Connors 67% on first serve (20/30) and 65% on second (11/17).
    Tanner 58% on first serve (14/24) and 17% on second (5/30).

    Tanner had virtually no chance when Connors got back his second serve.
     
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  27. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    #27
  28. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Moose, you mentioned a couple of stats for Mac on 2nd serve that were higher than Connors '75, which ones were they? I'll look myself for others.
     
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  29. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    Another low %. Guess it wasn't uncommon for Tanner, even in matches he won. Interesting pattern of serve %'s in the 80 match by set: 48(won set),62.5(lost), 33(won), 26(lost), 49(lost)

    rewatched some of the 80 match, seemed like Tanner was getting more waist high and above volleys(in 75, seemed like he had to get pretty low on all volleys right after the serve)

    1979 USO Final vs Vitas, 1979 DC vs Alexander. Think those were the highest we got for the 70s(along with Borg vs Pecci, but he only hit a few 2nd serves in that match)
     
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