Stats for 1984 AO SF: Sukova-Navratilova

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by Moose Malloy, Dec 13, 2010.

  1. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    Sukova d Navratilova 1-6, 6-3, 7-5

    This ended Martina's 74 match win streak, her 46 match win streak on grass, her streak of 6 consecutive majors(which included a 45 match win streak in majors), & her quest for the Calendar Grand Slam of 1984(but the public address announcer did introduce her by saying she completed the 'Grand Slam' by winning the French Open earlier that year, her 4th consecutive major)

    Navratilova was 3-0 vs Sukova going into this match, not having lost a set to her. She finished with a 26-6 edge in the rivalry.

    During the 1987 AO Womens Final on ESPN, Cliff Drysdale referred to this match as "the best women's match I have ever seen."

    my stats:

    Navratilova won 52 of 76 points on 1st serve(68%) & 15 of 38 on 2nd(39%)
    She made 76 of 114 1st serves(67%)

    Sukova won 34 of 54 points on 1st serve(63%) & 22 of 44 on 2nd(50%)
    She made 54 of 98 1st serves(55%)

    Navratilova won 109 pts, Sukova 103.

    Navratilova had 4 aces, 5 df's
    Sukova had 5 aces, 3 df's

    Navratilova had 39 winners: 11 fh, 7 bh, 6 fhv, 8 bhv, 7 ov
    winners by set: 16, 6, 17

    Sukova had 47: 14 fh, 18 bh, 4 fhv, 6 bhv, 5 ov
    winners by set: 17, 14, 16

    Navratilova had 15 passing shot winners(9 fh, 6 bh)
    Sukova had 29(11 fh, 18 bh)

    Navratilova had 13 unforced errors, Sukova 9(none in the 3rd set)

    Navratilova was 4 of 12 on break points
    Sukova was 4 of 13

    Navrtailova had 26 unreturned serve, 1 I judged a service winner
    Sukova had 18, 2 I judged a service winner

    Navratilova was 70 of 118 at net(59%)
    Sukova was 39 of 60(65%)

    The first set score is misleading, there were more points played in that set(80) than either the 2nd or 3rd sets. 6 of the 7 games went to deuce, & Martina faced break point in 3 of her 4 service games(7 in all)
    Very impressive for Sukova to shrug off that 1st set loss & continue to play well.

    The last game of the match was pretty amazing. 12 points played, 8 clean winners. No unforced errors. Martina saved 5 match points, 4 with fh winners. Sukova made 1st serves on all 5 match points. Not sure if I've ever seen Martina hit her fh as hard as she she did in this game, what a gutsy performance in defeat.


    from SI:

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1122953/3/index.htm
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2010
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  2. Moose Malloy

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    here are my stats for the final(Evert d Sukova 6-7, 6-1, 6-3)

    did this a while ago, & didn't take as many stats. Quality wasn't great, possibly due to very windy conditions.

    both players had 38 winners.

    Evert: 15 fh, 16 bh, 2 fhv, 3 bhv, 2 ov
    Sukova: 2 fh, 2 bh, 17 fhv, 12 bhv, 5 ov

    winners by set
    Evert - 10, 14, 14
    Sukova - 22, 5, 11

    Evert had 28 passing shot winners(12 fh, 16 bh)
    Sukova had 1

    Evert was 6 of 13 on break points
    Sukova was 2 of 13

    Evert was 73 of 114 on 1st serves, 64%
    Sukova was 41 of 95, 43%

    Sukova had 2 aces, 14 df's
    Evert had 8 df's

    Sukova had 17 unreturned serves, 2 I judged service winners
    Evert had 19, 2 I judged service winners

    from SI:

     
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  3. BTURNER

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    It was a wonderful match, and a well written article. Chris took her down after the loss of the first set.
     
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  4. jrepac

    jrepac Professional

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    sukova, I think, is one of the best players never to win a slam..

    she played a fine match against Martina, and had Chris on the ropes early on...

    but then she just fell apart...
     
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  5. SoftTen

    SoftTen Banned

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    I can't stop reading again. Nice article for sure. At least, the information is valid not based on imagnation.
     
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  6. krosero

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    I agree, it was an incredible game. It's a cliche, having your back "against the wall," but that's what you see when a champion is finally forced to that point: there's nothing left to lose and suddenly you see all their former inhibitions lifted, and they just fire away.

    I guess that's why when we think of some champions and their greatest moments from a "mental toughness" point of view, we often end up looking at matches they lost: Lendl at 88 USO, Martina here and at 85 USO, Federer at 08 Wimbledon, etc.

    This comment by Deford was interesting. I remember in one of Martina's matches against Chris (87W), we were discussing how Martina won the match despite having only 21% success on second serve. Here against Sukova she's got 39%, which is not that low considering she lost the match -- but it's kind of low considering that Martina really "won" the match in the sense of winning more points than Sukova (109-103).

    It's something I've been watching for in Martina's matches ever since our 87W debate: whether she's coming in too much, or too inflexibly, behind her second serve. It's not always easy to say. In that 87W match, her winning rate on second serve was equally low no matter whether she followed the serve directly into net or stayed back. I'm not sure what those stats would look like in this 84 AO match, but sometimes in her matches it's true that she comes in behind second serves that don't have much on them, and gets passed. But she had to get to net, so it's the SVer's dilemma.

    Even in her most aggressive matches she doesn't follow every second ball in as if mindlessly following the Big Game philosophy; she does stay back on some second serves. I just wonder why Martina's success on second serve seems often to be low when we get her stats -- so far.

    So of course you expect Sukova's winners to look different when her opponents are as different as Martina and Chris. I just didn't expect them to look so dramatically different. Sukova's winners against Evert, no problem, they're exactly what you'd expect: a SVer getting her winners at net, against a baseliner. But you look at Sukova's winners against Martina and she looks like a baseliner: 32 groundstroke winners.

    And I wonder how many were return winners (esp. of 2nd serves).

    It's interesting, however, even though Sukova was a SVer, the net stats show Martina coming in twice as much.
     
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  7. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    ^ just rewatched the 2nd set for some more detailed stats. Martina S&Ved on every service point she played. She was 10 of 16 when she S&Ved on 1st serve, 5 of 7 when she S&Ved on 2nd serve. Sukova hit 6 return winners, 4 off the 1st serve, 2 off the 2nd serve(these 6 were counted in passing shot winners as well)

    Sukova only came to net 8 times in this set! She was 6 of 8. S&Ved 5 times on 1st serve. Once on 2nd serve(won all 6 S&V points)
    She had a low serve % in this set - 44%, which may explain why her net stats were so low, since she wasn't that comfortable S&Ving on 2nd serve(also had 4 aces in this set, which obviously don't count for net stats, but she was clearly coming in after her serve on those points) Martina came in on Sukova's serve 9 times(won 5 of them)

    If I hadn't taken stats on this match, & was asked after watching it what I thought Sukova's winner breakdowns were, I probably would've guessed she had a lot more volley winners, at least equal to her groundstroke winner count. I guess the taking stats show you details that you can't get just by casually watching.

    Its a shame none of this match is on youtube.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2010
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  8. suwanee4712

    suwanee4712 Professional

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    I think comparing the two matches shows just how different playing Martina was vs. playing Chris. I think a lot of younger fans don't really appreciate how daunting it was not only to have to play two all time greats back to back, but also in having to play two totally different matches tactically speaking. That's something that seems completely lost in the womens game today.

    Chris didn't play the Australian very often, but every time she did she got to the finals. The higher bouncing grass courts suited her game very well in my opinion.

    Hana skipped this Australian season that year citing fatigue. I can't think of a single Australian womens field that included all of the womens top 5 from 1980-1990.
     
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  9. BTURNER

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    It was almost impossible to beat Evert/ Navratilova in consecutive matches. I can think of only three players who did in majors. Austin, Mandlikova and Graf ( Graf did in in 1989 with Evert at 34 and barely playing. She did the same in the Lipton two years earlier without it being a foregone conclusion) To beat the two of them required an entirely different mindset and set of skills. As a few pointed out, it was hard to settle down and get to sleep after the first victory.
     
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  10. krosero

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    Chris said afterward, ''I think I gave her more problems than Martina because Helena likes a target at the net."

    Chris said in '82 that she wanted to win the title, particularly with the field so strong that year. Strong in that context may have been only relatively strong, but it was certainly stronger than the men's field in which none of the Top Ten attended. I wonder why Chris and Martina started showing up again at the AO in 1981 (Martina actually in '80), while the men took a few more years. I don't know but maybe one reason they showed up in '81 and '82 was because the top spot for the year was still in question, which was not the case for the men. In '83 the top men showed up at the AO and that year the race for the top spot was not so clear-cut (though the race was definitely over among the women).
     
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  11. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    Here are stats I took on the '87 Eastbourne Final, Sukova d Navratilova 7-6(7-5) 6-3

    This win snapped Martina's 69 match win streak on English grass(last loss was vs Mandlikova at '81 Wimbledon. She won 5 straight Eastbourne & Wimbledon titles after that)

    Martina had to finish off Shriver in a SF match earlier in the day(won 6-4 4-6 6-3, picking up from 4-3 in the 1st)

    Sukova had beaten Evert the day before 4-6, 6-4, 8-6, coming back from 5-2 down in the 3rd(and also overcoming 16 df's)

    Martina was 16-1 vs Sukova going into this match.

    Sukova served at 56%(50 of 89)
    Martina served at 67%(47 of 70)

    Sukova won 31 of 50 points on 1st serve(62%)
    She won 24 of 39 on 2nd(61%)

    Martina won 31 of 47 points on 1st serve(66%)
    She won 9 of 23 on 2nd(39%)

    Sukova had 31 non service winners: 4 fh, 13 bh, 7 fhv, 4 bhv, 3 ov
    Martina had 36: 12 fh, 8 bh, 7 fhv, 7 bhv, 2 ov

    Sukova had 14 passing shot winners(3 fh, 11 bh)
    Martina had 18(10 fh, 8 bh)

    Sukova had 2 aces, 3 df's
    Martina had 1 ace, 3 df's

    Sukova had 21 unreturned serves, 4 were service winners
    8 were 2nd serves
    Martina had 21 as well, 1 service winner. 3 were 2nd serves.

    Sukova was 4 of 7 on break points(Martina made 1st serves on 5 of them)
    Martina was 2 of 7(Sukova made 1st serves on 4 of them)

    Sukova won 85 points, Martina 74

    The first set was very entertaining. 44 clean winners. Martina had a 5-0 lead, hitting 12 winners in those 5 games. Don't think it was a choke, Sukova started hitting a ton of winners the rest of the set(with Martina still making a lot as well)

    But like with the AO loss, you wonder if Martina should have stayed back more on 2nd serves(which she started doing some in the 2nd) since Sukova started treeing with her returns.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2011
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  12. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    some aticles I came across:

    http://www.nytimes.com/1987/06/22/s...rs-for-navratilova.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

    http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...679_1_english-grass-courts-navratilova-porwik
     
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  13. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/19...1_evert-and-navratilova-wimbledon-chris-evert
     
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  14. Joe Pike

    Joe Pike Banned

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    Quite interesting how much trouble Martina had with Sukova. Considering for example that Sukova lost 21 matches in a row to Steffi Graf from 1986 through 1994, with Sukova winning only 4 sets.

    In 1987-89 alone there were 11 wins for Steffi with 22-0 sets and Sukova winning more than 3 games in only 4 sets!
     
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  15. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    And this after serving 14 doubles against Evert in the AO final.

    That's an awful lot of (non-service) winners for one set. Offhand I recall Becker and Agassi hitting 39 non-service winners between them in the third set, during their Davis Cup match. I can't think of any over 40.

    How many points were in the set?
     
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  16. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    She'd won their last 13 meetings. Of course she also had a run of 13 against Evert. Not to mention 21 straight over Garrison, and 29 straight over Shriver.
     
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  17. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    43 were non service winners.

    86 points in the 1st set.
     
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  18. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Here's another, ironically also by Becker and Agassi: 40 winners between them in their 1995 Wimbledon SF, fourth set. If you throw in Becker's aces it's 47 clean winners.

    But that set was exceptionally long (108 points).

    That's not even a particularly long set.
     
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  19. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Those stats show that Sukova often got up for playing Martina. 18 backhand passing shot winners? Her backhand isnt even a good passing shot normally. In fact all she usually did was slice it. Also 0 unforced errors in the 3rd set, very unusual for her game which was high risk.
     
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  20. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    some more stats(there was a pt missing on Evert's serve in the 3rd set, which she lost. I'm counting it as a 1st serve)

    Evert was 73-115 on 1st serve
    She won 66% of 1st serve pts(48-73)
    and won 52% of 2nd sere pts(22-42)

    Sukova won 76% of 1st serve pts(31-41)
    and won 39% of 2nd serve pts(21-54)

    Evert drew 20 return errors, 10 on 2nd serve
    Sukova drew 17 return errors, 6 on 2nd serve

    Not counting df's I have Sukova with 28 unforced errors, Evert with 11

    Sukova made 1st serves on 5 of the 13 break points she faced.
    Evert made 9 on the 13 break points she faced
     
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  21. BTURNER

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    Helena turned out to be one of the best from-behind players of this era, splashing winners with abandon in streaks even against the best of front-runners, but when ahead, the golden touch was circumspect. That pattern was clear in many of these matches discussed here in come-from behind set wins. It is also true that by late '86, Evert's renowned nerve and concentration was already suspect.
     
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  22. PDJ

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    Fascinating thread.
     
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  23. CEvertFan

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    Martina often seemed to get into tight matches playing against other serve/volleyers than she did against baseliners - I've seen some other players besides Sukova give her a lot of trouble.

    I think it was mostly because her passing shots weren't nearly as strong as, for example, someone like Evert''s were. She sometimes had trouble passing, especially off the backhand side.

    And I agree with others that Sukova was one of the very best players to never win a major. When she was on she hit with a lot of power and accuracy for the time and her wingspan and height helped her at the net. Bud Collins dubbed her and Claudia Kodhe-Kilsch the "Twin Towers" when they played doubles together regularly.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2013
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  24. rockandroll

    rockandroll Banned

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    Sukova wasnt that good a mover and her agility was lacking. I think that was her biggest problem. That plus matching up poorly vs Graf who she was 1-21 against lifetime, and who often stood in her way of a potential major.

    I think her best chances to win a major were the 84 Australian Open and 90 Australian Open. She could have beaten an off form Graf in the 1990 semis. The 84 event she could have won if she served better in the final. I am not sure if there is any other slam she had a real shot to win. 1987 Wimbledon maybe.
     
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  25. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

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    I think Navratilova did well enough when given 'target practice' often enough. You don't win that much grass tennis without passing well. Her problem came with players who were less predictable and came in occasionally. It took her a long time to get her passes grooved and there were a lot of blanks that came from her guns. Add to that, her backhand pass was sometimes telegraphed, and she really did not hit the topspin as well so it refused to dip in time, so shewas left with low percentage flat backhand and the slice.
     
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  26. suwanee4712

    suwanee4712 Professional

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    As an all courter, I always thought that preparing for a serve and volleyer was a mindset as much as it was physical. And I think that's why netrushers like Martina and Hana weren't prepared to pass well vs. a baseliner as opposed to when they played each other. I think this is a big reason why Evert was often successful approaching vs. the netrushers, but maybe not as successful vs. a baseliner.
     
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  27. suwanee4712

    suwanee4712 Professional

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    As great of a win as it was for Helena, and she deservedly won, the thing I remember most about this match were the crushing, monster returns that Martina fired back against Helena's huge first serves to save all of those match points. Martina made Helena win it.
     
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  28. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    sukova vs mandlikova hth please?
     
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  29. BTURNER

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    "sukova vs mandlikova hth please?"
    Hana won the H TO H 11 matches to 2. Sukova got her first victory in 1986 (about the same time she upset Evert for the first time) on carpet and got her second victory, again on carpet,in 1989.
     
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  30. rockandroll

    rockandroll Banned

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    I am surprised Sukova has a lopsided losing head to head with Shriver (I would guessed equal or ahead, she is the better player IMO) and such a lopsided losing record vs Hana (I would think she could play her closer than 2-11).

    To a lesser degree I am a bit surprised at her 1-21 (only win when Graf was 14 so hardly even counts) vs Graf. Although less than those other two as Graf is a GOAT and is in many ways a better version of Sukova (slightly better serve, bigger forehand, even better backhand slice and backhand variety) minus the persistent net rushing and true volleying expertise, but replacing clunky and poor movement (Sukova) with GOAT level speed and athleticsm (Graf). So I can see how Graf would be nightmare opponent for Sukova, even more than either Navratilova or Evert.
     
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  31. suwanee4712

    suwanee4712 Professional

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    I thought she underperformed vs. all of those players too. Some are easier to explain than others.

    Hana had a clear mental edge over Helena. I don't think that Helena's dad, Cyril, helped things much. After Helena beat Hana for the first time in early 1986, as president of the Czech tennis federation, Cyril had his daughter declared Czech #1 using a ranking system that included doubles. Naturally, Hana objected and things boiled over between Hana and the Suks in a feud that lasted several years. This doomed the Czechs chances even before the Fed Cup in Prague as they did not want to play doubles with each other and hardly even spoke. Hana resumed her dominance of Helena that lasted until she became Australian. Things went bad again when Helena's doubles partnership with Novotna ended. By 1996, things were good again as Hana was then Helena's Fed Cup coach.

    Helena vs. Pam appears to be the big mystery. Comparing the two, Helena passes the eyeball test. She looks like the better player. But this discounts the strength of Shriver's game and why she achieved all that she did. Pam was a shrewd tactician that knew Helena's game as well as Helena did. She often picked her apart by returning low to Sukova and then making her cover the net from post to post with chips, dinks, and slices and then over her head with her excellent lobs. Sound familiar? It should because that's Novotna's game vs. a netrusher. Also, Pam served Helena's body better than anyone producing weaker returns and errors. Their 1987 Wimbledon QF match is one of the best slam quarters that almost no one saw or remembers.

    With Graf, Helena had the same problem that Hana did at almost exactly the same time. Helena's best year by miles was 1986. That "peak " level lasted through about 1987 and then her game started receding. Why? Because she started losing consistency and pace on her serve. Combine that with Graf's improved return (and other players' returns too) she started losing confidence. If you can't hold your serve, how are you going to beat Steffi, who is one of the best at holding?

    Helena's 1989 Australian was an anomoly. Her serve was back as she knocked off Martina in a thrilling match and she lost to Steffi in two tight sets. But it wasn't meant to be. Realizing that she can no longer win by pumping in only 40 to 50% of her first serves, Helena spent the rest of her career serving at 3/4 pace, and she just didn't have the movement to consistently back that up. It's amazing to me that Helena was able to reach the 1993 US Open final. Because the Helena that got to the 86 Open final was twice the player that got to the 93 Open final. That SF vs. Sanchez? Horrid exhibition of moonballing on both sides with an occasional volley from Sukova.
     
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  32. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Evert’s Aggressive Margin was 24.8%, Sukova’s 17.1%.

    Evert served on 115 points and 20 serves did not come back: 17.4%
    Sukova served on 95 points and 19 serves did not come back: 20.0%


    Service success when serves were returned successfully:

    Evert 60% on first serve (38/63) and 50% on second (12/24).
    Sukova 64% on first serve (18/28 ) and 44% on second (15/34).
     
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  33. driscoll

    driscoll Banned

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    Thanks for your summary of these great players. I should point out though Graf 6 times in 86 and 87 though and lost all 6, winning only 2 sets. This was Sukova at her best ever (according to you) and a clearly not yet prime Graf. So Graf was never a good matchup for her as rockandroll indicated.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2013
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  34. jaggy

    jaggy G.O.A.T.

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    What a wonderful thread to read, great job everyone
     
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